Re: Woman begs for a cup of tea....
A. Saturnus, perhaps I misinterpreted the article, but I received the impression that the family and the individual were looking for treatment. The doctor decided to starve/dehydrate the woman and was threatening legal action against any family member that disagreed with his decision. As others have said, his reference to putting down dogs certainly shows his mindset was not foremost on the welfare of the patient.
Let's face it, in today's society, doctors view patients as objects. There is no respect for humanity. We are test subjects, we are cash generating enterprises, we are burdens, we are many things, but we most certainly are NOT human beings in their eyes. We are their toys. When they've had enough of us, they'll throw us in the trash, and that's precisely what this 'good doctor' did to this poor old lady.
Yet one more step in the march towards the engineered species, with doctors taking for themselves the decision-making capability regarding selectively culling.
Go back and read the worst of the worst that Nazi physicians performed (as it was testified to in Nuremburg). Then ask yourself what they did that's not acceptable practice today.
Personally, I'd rather just have my heart attack/stroke and stay the hell away from whatever devious experiments they decide I need.
Re: Woman begs for a cup of tea....
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Let's face it, in today's society, doctors view patients as objects. There is no respect for humanity. We are test subjects, we are cash generating enterprises, we are burdens, we are many things, but we most certainly are NOT human beings in their eyes. We are their toys. When they've had enough of us, they'll throw us in the trash, and that's precisely what this 'good doctor' did to this poor old lady.
I think you're being a bit unfair to a group of people who do a very difficult job for comparitively low pay, and who save a very large number of lives.
Did you have a bad experience with Doctors, or something?
Re: Woman begs for a cup of tea....
Relatively low pay? This must be a reigonal thing. In the US, doctors are the highest paid professionals out there.
I have had bad experiences with doctors, yes, but that would only be anecdotal evidence. My concerns go far beyond my own experiences. When you look at this case, several other cases where doctors have made the decision NOT to save the patient in oppossition to the wishes of the family and/or patient, the rationing of health care, the Dutch situation where doctors now decide which infants will be euthanized, regardless of the wishes of the parents... in short when you look at the big picture of where medical ethics currently stands, and I'm terrified. We're their guinea pigs and meal tickets. Nothing more.
Re: Woman begs for a cup of tea....
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Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Let's face it, in today's society, doctors view patients as objects. There is no respect for humanity. We are test subjects, we are cash generating enterprises, we are burdens, we are many things, but we most certainly are NOT human beings in their eyes. We are their toys. When they've had enough of us, they'll throw us in the trash, and that's precisely what this 'good doctor' did to this poor old lady.
I loathe having to go anywhere near a doctor too, but I think you're being very harsh.
Some doctors may think or act the way you describe, many others don't.
As I noted in my first reply, the care given to my dying mother over an extended period in hospital was utterly excellent. Kindness, listening to our views, helping make her comfortable, and at the end, asking if we understood the effects of increasing painkillers to ease her suffering, and administering such relief when we asked.
Both nurses and doctors were wonderful. :bow:
But I've met the odd stinker too. :furious3:
Re: Woman begs for a cup of tea....
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Originally Posted by Big King Sanctaphrax
I think you're being a bit unfair to a group of people who do a very difficult job for comparitively low pay, and who save a very large number of lives.
Did you have a bad experience with Doctors, or something?
Does it excuse the fact that they might have deliberately murdered an old woman? If they stand cannot stand the low and pay and long hours, then they should try another line of occupation.
And why do you assume that the work they do is life-saving? The medical system is the leading cause of death in the US. 20,000 extra cases of breast cancers are estimated to have been produced by the now deprecated estrogen therapy by the elderly in UK alone.
Why do you ignore the fact that the machine that was feeding the patient not repaired as a life-saving measure? Why did the doctor mention putting patients down like animals? Why did he threaten the family with arrest?
And more disturbingly, why was the woman lucid and begging for fluids? Shouldn't PALLITATIVE care instead of ABANDONMENT/euthanasia be more appropriate?
Re: Woman begs for a cup of tea....
Anybody that believes doctors take their college exam and then suddenly morph into numb, uncaring, and inhumane people should examine the way he looks at the world.
Re: Woman begs for a cup of tea....
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Originally Posted by Lehesu
Anybody that believes doctors take their college exam and then suddenly morph into numb, uncaring, and inhumane people should examine the way he looks at the world.
Anyone who believe exams can induce and enforce good moral behaviour needs to get a reality check.
If you think slow codes and dehydration isn't rampant, then why do you think large scale investigations happened in the late nineties and started the push for the 'backdoor euthanasia' bill which was tabled in 2004 defines food and water as treatment?
"THERE are 60 alleged cases of involuntary euthanasia or maltreatment of elderly patients currently under investigation in Britain - 40 of which are in Derby, where alleged victims were said to have died slowly from dehydration and starvation."
"A six-week undercover investigation of two London hospitals, conducted by the Sunday London Times, concluded, "Shocking inhumanity, negligence and criminality are everyday features of the National Health Service."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/htmlConte...6/neld106.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/552326.stm
http://www.internationaltaskforce.org/iua20.htm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...403803,00.html
Re: Woman begs for a cup of tea....
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Originally Posted by orangat
Does it excuse the fact that they might have deliberately murdered an old woman? If they stand cannot stand the low and pay and long hours, then they should try another line of occupation.
'The fact they might have deliberately murdered an old woman'? Is it just me or does that sentence not quite sound right? Aside from the fact the you're assuming that they did kill the old woman in your response, you were attacking a strawman-at no point did I say that poor pay and long hours would excuse murder. I was merely objecting to people characterising the entire medical profession as slobbering psychopaths who get their jollies from killing old ladies.
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And why do you assume that the work they do is life-saving? The medical system is the leading cause of death in the US. 20,000 extra cases of breast cancers are estimated to have been produced by the now deprecated estrogen therapy by the elderly in UK alone.
Yeah, that's right, scientific medicine isn't of net benefit. Hell, we're better off without it.
As an aside, I'd love to see some statistics backing up those assertions.
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Why do you ignore the fact that the machine that was feeding the patient not repaired as a life-saving measure? Why did the doctor mention putting patients down like animals? Why did he threaten the family with arrest?
The article didn't have enough information on the first point, so I can't comment. As for the threatening with arrest-I'd hazard a guess that it might have been because feeding her would cause her to choke, but, again, I don't have access to his actual reason. I'm pretty sure it wasn't 'because I love killing the elderly', though.
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And more disturbingly, why was the woman lucid and begging for fluids? Shouldn't PALLITATIVE care instead of ABANDONMENT/euthanasia be more appropriate?
I belive it's mentioned in the article that she was unable to take food or drink orally, and other methods were not working. I'm not sure what palliative care they could have undertaken. Drugged her out of her gourd?
Re: Woman begs for a cup of tea....
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Originally Posted by Big King Sanctaphrax
'The fact they might have deliberately murdered an old woman'? Is it just me or does that sentence not quite sound right? Aside from the fact the you're assuming that they did kill the old woman in your response, you were attacking a strawman-at no point did I say that poor pay and long hours would excuse murder. I was merely objecting to people characterising the entire medical profession as slobbering psychopaths who get their jollies from killing old ladies.
Yeah, that's right, scientific medicine isn't of net benefit. Hell, we're better off without it.
We'd all be better off treating the medical profession like we do any other occupation. They should be accountable for their own mistakes.
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As an aside, I'd love to see some statistics backing up those assertions.
I stated a fact. Google is a useful tool.
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The article didn't have enough information on the first point, so I can't comment. As for the threatening with arrest-I'd hazard a guess that it might have been because feeding her would cause her to choke, but, again, I don't have access to his actual reason. I'm pretty sure it wasn't 'because I love killing the elderly', though.
I belive it's mentioned in the article that she was unable to take food or drink orally, and other methods were not working. I'm not sure what palliative care they could have undertaken. Drugged her out of her gourd?
It sounds fishy that the doctor expressed surprised that she was 'still alive', talked about putting Olive down like an animal and threatened the family with arrest.
For someone who said that doctors had a duty to help patients do die, you don't sound very encouraging about giving Knockels a sedative.
Re: Woman begs for a cup of tea....
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Originally Posted by orangat
Anyone who believe exams can induce and enforce good moral behaviour needs to get a reality check.
Not what I said. If you Brits have issues with your doctors, that is out of my ken. My experience is only in America. It's sad, because I believe in nationalized health care, but so many bad examples of it are around that makes our cutthroat free-market system look appealing. No one in the states will gleefully start killing people without consent in such a competetive and litigious environment such as the U.S. If that is not the case in the UK...
Re: Woman begs for a cup of tea....
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Originally Posted by Lehesu
Not what I said. If you Brits have issues with your doctors, that is out of my ken. My experience is only in America. It's sad, because I believe in nationalized health care, but so many bad examples of it are around that makes our cutthroat free-market system look appealing. No one in the states will gleefully start killing people without consent in such a competetive and litigious environment such as the U.S. If that is not the case in the UK...
I'm not a Brit and I'm currently living in the US.
I never once said or implied in my posts that the doctor was gleefully killing his patients. The doctor's authoritarian demenour stems from the paternalistic mindset of the medical profession.
And threat of litigation didn't stop a doctor and 2 nurses in New Orleans from carrying out involuntary euthanasia on their patients during Katrina. They were arrested and charged with homicide.
Re: Woman begs for a cup of tea....
There is always an exception to the rule. And variance to every statistic.
Re: Woman begs for a cup of tea....
I know there are some fine, noble, upstanding doctors out there who practice medicine for the virtuous goal of improving the human condition.
I personally believe they are in a distinct minority.
My sister has Systemic Lupus (look it up). She's actually been a patient at Yale New Haven Hospital (again, fancy program, look it up) because she became subject at age 12, almost unheard of.
At age 27, she went to see her regular practitioner, because she had had a bad cough. The first two organs Lupus attacks are your lungs & kidneys. The yaboh she went to see told her her coughs didn't 'sound bad enough', and asked her if she wasn't just milking it to get out of work. Mind you, this is over the span of 6 visits and 5 months. By the time my sister got to a rheumatoligist who had his head screwed on (Lupus is within their specialized field and the above dickhead was a rheumatologist as well), she was diagnosed as being in a severe flare-up and and had lost 66% of her lung capacticy (her lungs are now mostly scar tissue).
When I went to the doctor after having fallen off of a 4 story roof, I went in complaining of dizziness, nausea and moments of dimensia. You'd think I'd be a prime candidate for a concussion cat-scan. Nope. My joker decided to admit me, spend three days performing alzheimers tests (I was 23 at the time), ran up a 30K bill, then dismissed me, under orders no anti-inflammatories were to be given to me. I went home, but had to be readmitted later that night when I woke up with a nosebleed because my cranial lobes were being crushed against my skull.
I've had experiences with women (friends) going in for breast cancer were told if they wouldn't commit to the reconstructive plastic surgery, the doctor wouldn't perform the mastectomy. I had a friend be dismissed from a hospital with level 4 ovarian cancer, because she tested out of a study her doctor wanted to get into. She died, age 24. I had a grandmother on blue cross, blue shield (not medicaid, but doesn't pay as much) and the doctor AT HER ELDERY CARE FACILITY, wouldn't treat her after she fell and broke her hip.
You can tell me it's all anecdotal and that there are good doctors out there. I can't seem to find them, and I'm not a stupid man.
Re: Woman begs for a cup of tea....
It seems the same doctor has a record for doing this sort of thing.....
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A CORONER investigating the death of a woman allegedly starved and deprived of fluids in hospital has been asked to hold an inquest into the death of a patient on the same ward.
Relatives of Harold Speed believe that he died of dehydration, not pneumonia as his death certificate says. The 84-year-old former music teacher had been examined by the same doctor who treated Olive Nockels, who died after her drips were removed.
Dr. Giggles
If you fall ill, make sure you get the hell out of East-Anglia.
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Mr Speed and Mrs Nockels were patients on Kimberley ward at Norfolk and Norwich University Hospital.
It will be interesting to follow this and see where it leads....
