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{Cornelius Saturninus}
It saddens me that a potential alliance with Carthage has turned into an inevitably costly war. Senator Laevinus, do not worry, young Servius will not fight alone against the Carthaginians. I volunteer my services to the cause and request relocation to the Sicilian front, and on to Africa if necessary thereafter.
I would also like to add that I appluad Tribune Aureolus' actions at Debeltos, and his integrity in the aftermath.
Regarding the disobedience of Numerius Auerolus at Debeltos, I will not pursue the matter further as he has a legal technicality to protect him from not performing what was clearly the will of this house, as discussed in the last interim session. Both myself and my co-consul made it quite clear that we intended to raze Debeltos to the ground should the motion to take it pass. My mistake was that I was so focussed on defeating that motion, I did not think to insert a clause specifically calling for the cities destruction should I be forced to take it.
As for the Carthaginian war - I do not have access to my scrolls at this moment, but I believe our only lower house Senators within reach of Sicily and Melite are those youngsters studying in Rome, most of whom are still one or two years away from completing their studies. Of the senior lower house Senators I believe the nearest 2 are Augustus Verginius in Gaul and Lucius Aemilius west of Auqilia.
At least Numerius Aureolus has now removed himself from wishing to join the Carthaginian campaign. A pleasant change from his constant demands to be sent wherever the action is. Send me to Thrace! Send me to Macedon! Send me to Debeltos! Send me to Byzantion! Send me to Melite! At last our young Alexander realises that even he cannot fight battles in Greece and Melite at the same time.
I do not wish to sound as impertinent as Numerius Aureolus, but I also do not wish to leave the Gallic front until I recieve word that they have been completely destroyed. In my opinion, a senior Senator is not needed for this mission anyway. Motion 10.8 forbids the Consuls from taking any land from Carthage during the remainder of their term. This certainly does not apply to defending or re-taking Melite as the case may be, but that is an assignment that truly can be done by a single Legion if it is competently led.
Task one of the younger Senators with the rescue of the tiny island and be done with it. We will surely debate the value of a full African campaign at the next election.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I seem to have offended the Co-Consul, but at the risk of further offence, I should state emphatically that I do not rule myself out from personal involvement in action against Carthage. If we do mount a full African campaign at some stage, as Senator Verginius suggests, it would be the most glorious military endeavour the Republic has yet engaged upon. No young tribune would rule themselves out from such. I merely state that, being in far-off Debeltos and surrounded by Egyptians, I recognise that I may not be the Consuls first choice to defend Melite. If I am, I would go there with a happy heart.
On the issue of senior Lower House generals, we do not need reminding that in war, it is the convention that the Consul lead our armies into the heaviest fighting. Currently, we have two active theatres of war - a large, open Thracian front and a currently narrow southern one, at the moment focussed on Melite but possibly extending to the other islands, including Sicily. Fortunately, we have two Consuls. The First Consul is already battling the Thracians. That leaves the Co-Consul in what is now a quiet eastern border with Egypt. I suggest that the Co-Consul move to take overall charge of the southern front.
Thank you senator Saturninus for your support. Perhaps, when the senate deems us worthy of leadership, we shall lead the defense against the Carthaginians together.
Senators, is it necessary that we have two full legions defending Gaul now?
One of them (preferable Legio III) should be activated to subdue the Carthaginian threat. This is the theatre that can be spared a legion, as well as the one that gets the soldiers to the action quickest. Send Legio III to fight Carthage!
{Cornelius Saturninus}
That would be a foolhardy move senator Aemilius, seeing as how Iberia is a major threat to us in the west. If anything, we will probably need more legions in the area shortly. My hopes lie in the possibility of a short conflict with Carthage, throwing them back into the sea from which they came and ending it there. Our priorities lie with Iberia. I fear we've allowed them to become much too powerful and a major threat to our overall stability. They are just too much of a wildcard. If preemptive action is not taken very soon senators, prepare for the worst. We mustn't be caught with our togas around our ankles, busying ourselves in Africa, I've come to see this now. I believe we must strike, and strike fast, push the stinking Iberians back into the peninsula and secure the mountain border above, effectively splitting their kingdom. From there, I would like to take the entire peninsula as it would be more easily defensible against Iberian retaliation from the North, and would give us a strategic foothold for a future African invasion. As you can imagine, this will be an enormous effort, requiring the full industrial and administrational capabilities of the Republic.
I would push for immediate action, but I believe a more measured approach will be more to our benefit. Refitting our legions and troops quickly before making any military advances should be attempted, a great logistical effort. At least three legions must be committed to the campaign, maybe more. However, we may not have the luxury of time for such indulgences. The Iberians are a fierce, aggressive peoples, you've seen how they've expanded their lands and military might in these past few decades. I've been researching much about them in the Greek libraries where I've been these few years and learning terrible things, and I believe I might be a good asset for the Republic. I request permission from this Senate to travel to Italy and raise troops myself to prepare for any upcoming incidents.
I believe that within the current Consul's term, or at least the next, Rome will see a war the likes of which we've never seen nor would ever wish for. However, it will be a necessary war lest we wish our children to be the slaves of savage, barbarious mosters. Senators, if you thought the Gauls were something, you have yet to see anything.
Cornelius Saturninus speaks the truth when he says we need to maintain a strong presence in Gaul. Any reduction in our troops numbers there will be seen as weakness by the Iberians and war will ensue. For many years now, maintaining peace with Iberia has been a priority for our Republic. I am sure war with them will come - but I would would rather it be later than sooner.
The conflict is already with Carthage. Are we to just throw them back to Afrika every time they get the gall to invade Melite or another of our islands? No, Carthage must be reminded of our superiority. Praetor Coruncanius showed wisdom when proposing a raid, and I now realize I was wrong to disagree with him. Carthage must pay for its insolence.
(OOC: You guys are right, but at least take me out of Comata! I want my military service counter to keep ticking!)
Conscript fathers,
I find myself to be siding with Cornelius Saturninus on the matter of troop deployment, I don't deem Carthage our biggest rival at the moment. Not while we have the expansion driven Iberians to our West, and the Great Nation of Egypt to our east. War with both is inevitable it seems, they are simply to powerful to ignore. And I know they think the exact same way.
Carthage can be ignored for now. It is to our east and west we must look first. To our east the Iberians expand destroying everyone in their path, and soon their path Will cross that of our own.Their military might must not be underestimated!. I'd even say they have more troops in the area than we do...
On the other side of the world we must contend with the Egyptians, who, if they 'd dare, could push as far as Athens before we could strike them with a sufficient amount of force to break them. Only one legion stands between Byzantium and Thessalonica, if that doesn't prove to be enough then the closest army in the neighborhood would Tiberius the Victor's army. Who is currently guarding against Thracian intrusion in the north. So if the treasury could handle it, we shouldf think about strengthening the garrisons in Greece and Macedonia. Or reenforce the current legion near the Egyptian border.
I myself would love to help in anyway I could and don't worry, Tiberius the Victor, my father by adoption, has trained me for 6 years. I am ready to command my own army, and I do hope you agree Conscript Fathers.
Flavius Pacuvius, legate under Tiberius the Victor.
:balloon2:
Flavius, if the Ptolomites do attack, unless the significantly strengten their armies in Europe, their defeat would be short and swift. They only have 2 cities on our side of the Bosphorus. We have 2 legions (mine and Numerius Aureolus) adjacent to their land. The problem will be holding off their reinforcements as they attempt to cross from Asia Minor.
OOC: IIRC there is a land bridge at Byzantion, and another at the southern end of the Bosphorus
Publius Pansa, you are quite right about the defeat that Ptolemy would suffer should he attack us, but there would be no reinforcements out of Asia. Ptolemy's holdings in Asia are too far south, Ionia and such. There would be Seleucid territories betweeen us, and the Aegean sea.
I do not see why some keep insisting that Iberia is a bigger threat than Carthage. Iberians have never been hostile to us. They allowed us to almost destroy their supposed allies, the Gauls. They even gave us money when one of their armies found itself inside our expanding borders.
And what did Carthage do? They launched an invasion! At the mid term some claimed that Carthage would not be hostile to us any further, and even suggested a ceasefire. Ok, so that was completely wrong, but there was still a reasonable argument for it. But how can anyone now think that the Carthaginians are anything but completely hostile? Just what will stop them from invading further islands, other than Roman military might?
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Once again, I find myself in agreement with Praetor Coruncanius. I fear that we - myself included - have concerned ourselves too much with the possibility of potential wars with our neighbours Iberia, Egypt and Seleucia. We overlooked the actual threat posed by our existing wars with Thrace - who have already seized one settlement from us - and with Carthage - who are about to seize Melite.
We have set a line of the Danube river to hold against the Thracians. I trust to the First Consul to establish this frontier and hold back the barbarians.
We had trusted to the seas to form a barrier between us and Carthage. We now see that such a belief was mistaken. The seas are not like a river - they cannot be so easily watched and there are no bridges or fords at which travellers across them can be easily stopped. We must guard our shores watchfully and begin preparations to make our own expedition across the Mediterranean.
{Cornelius Saturninus}
Senator Coruncanius, all that will be needed to stop any further invasions by the Carthaginians will be one, maybe two legions stationed in strategic locations where a seaborne invasion is likely. Perhaps one in Sicily, another in Central or Southern Italy. All this could have been avoided however, if the senate had realized that a ceasefire was crucial when we had the chance. That is all water under a bridge now. It is essential that this body does not make another mistake at present time. All our strength must be focused to the west. Any potential conflict with the Ptolemies will not be of major consequence to us, as already discussed. One or two legions in the east should be enough to keep our lands safe.
The Iberians will only continue to expand and bring more money and manpower under their rule... money and manpower they will use to wage a war on us. It is true, they offered us a paltry gift of around 500 denarii, but that was only to stave us off long enough for them to be fully prepared for their offensive. That was their advance scout force in our lands senators, hiding behind tribute and respect whilst the main forces assemble. I urge you senators, do not make a costly mistake now, send me and other able generals to crush the Iberians. I have gotten all I can out of these greek cities, now it is time to put my skills to use for the good of the Republic.
So, Saturnius, you say that one or two legions would be able to protect Italy's very long coastline, and 4 islands, from invasion, but somehow one or two legions are not enough to defend in Transalpine Gaul, and, as a result, we must attack the Iberians? Now I do wonder why one would make such an egregiously faulty argument? Perhaps you are ignorant? Or maybe you think the Republic is not involved in enough wars as it is? Or do you hate the Iberians? Maybe you want to lead the charge personally but are afraid of the sea? Perhaps you have spent too much time among the Greeks, and adopted their faulty strategy? Have I guessed correctly yet?
{Cornelius Saturninus}
You are nowhere near the truth senator. One or two legions to defend our coastlines are more than enough. One in Sicily can be transported to any of the nearby islands, as well as move north to Southern Italy if necessary within a season, more than enough time to halt any advance. Another legion in Central Italy can defend all of the peninsula's coastline and the islands to the west. Do you believe it necessary instead to have a legion stationed every few hundred miles along the coast, just waiting for an invasion in their immediate sector? No, I believe two legions are more than enough. These are men senator, men who can move from place to place to defend as necessary. These are the Roman legions, the most capably lead soldiers in the world. If a threat is near, they will reach it and dispose of it.
On the other hand, in the Iberian front we have many more points of attack they can choose, much like our current Thracian front. As you saw, a Thracian army sneaked through our borders and took a settlement from under our noses. Why? Because the border is wide, the lands far and expansive. Unlike our coastline, which can have only so many strategic entry points, and of which the chances of invasion are less than land encroachments.
Senator, you would do well to try and learn as much as you can yourself from the Greeks or any others. Do not snub knowledge just because it comes from a different source. If you believe my arguments are not warranted and I am just warmongering, you senator Coruncanius, may be the ignorant one. War with Iberia is coming. Whether or not we are ready for it is up to us. Balancing the power in the West is a necessary prefix to our invasion of Africa. Without it, we will be in a much worse predicament.
Yet Senator. Yet.....Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYdude
As for Carthage, perhaps the Senate Speaker could clarify this issue for me, but I was under the impression, based upon the motions passed in the last session, that conquest of any Carthaginian territory is not allowed. I fear that it might come down to the minutiea of the relevant motions, debated at length by those with more intrest in legal technicalities than myself.
[SENATE SPEAKER]: The Consuls are responsible for interpreting legislation, but I agree with the Co-Consul - my reading of Motion 10.8 is that it does prevent us from conquering any existing Carthaginian settlements.
Of course, should any of our settlements fall to them, I do not believe 10.8 would rule out reconquering them.
Conscript Fathers, I have not the time to write a full report, but Melite has been cleared of the Carthaginian army, and Orduba has been taken from the Thracians, thus completing our expansion to the Danube - now we need to secure the crossings on that River.
And with that, I hand over the day to day running of our Republic to First Consul Lucius Aemilius, who is advancing on Aquilia.
Why has this Senate turned into such a mass of warmongers? It saddens me to see this great Republic turned into nothing more than a band of squabbling men who want nothing more than personal glory. We are plunged from one great war into another with no end in sight at all. We are told that simply because we are in a state of war with an enemy, we must engage in all-out warfare to end it swiftly and decisively. Yet when the war is complete, we are told that another one must be immediately engaged in. Thus, we are always in the middle of some incredibly important conflict which honor demands that we win without delay.
I think several in here do not understand the meaning of the word honor. Honor involves doing what is right for the Republic even if it is not good for yourself. The Republic is suffering economically and militarily from these unending conflicts. We need an extended period of peace, even unilateral peace, to create better farming, roads and baths for our citizens and to strengthen our Legions so that all areas can be defended at the same time. To do any less is to ignore the needs of the Roman people.
OOC :
Steven Colbert says it so much better than I can in The Long War :
As long as we're at war, we're under attack,
As long as we're under attack, we're at war,
This gives us a lot of leeway...
...To fight everyone forever against everything.
:laugh4:
Letter to the senate, Autumn 257 BC
Conscript fathers,
The situation remains dire.
Tribune Gaius Rutilius is holding Melite where the Carthagians have landed another invasion force. Our fleet tried to prevent the landing, but were defeated and are now regrouping. All our warfleets are converging on Melite, while new 'light' fleets are being equipped to replace them.
I, praetor Lucius Aemilius, have recaptured Acquileia and proceeded to destroy all Thracian forces in Illyria with severe losses. The Thracians have launched another offensive with a massive army, led by their faction heir. Some of our troops were destroyed while we tried to regroup to counter this new threat. I have this army cornered and will engage it when word reaches me from the east.
In the east, two Thracian armies are marching on Ratiaria. I have decided to abandon Debeltos and will send tribune Numerius Aureolus to engage one of them, while praetor Tiberius Coruncanius engages the other one.
Glory to the Republic !
Praetor Lucius Aemilius
OCC : The Ptolemaic empire actually accepted Debeltos as a gift, but then I had to reload as I accidentily sent my co-consul alone in the fray, leaving his troops behind. After the reload, they wouldn't take it, hence the abandonment.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: First Consul, the rider you sent to Praetor Coruncanius later arrived to brief me. Having reviewed his information, I share your gloomy assessment of our situation. The war with Thrace is proving more bitter than most of us realised during the mid-term debates.
On the matter of Debeltos, it is for the Consuls to dispense with as they like, but personally I would be loathe to surrender an inch of Roman territory. Our destiny is to control south-east Europe south of the Danube. If we abandon Debeltos to rebels now, we will have to pay a second blood price for it soon. I offer the First Consul an alternative proposal - send Legio V and I away from Debeltos, but hire a few mercenaries to keep order in the settlement for us in our absence.
I also would like to speak on behalf of two of my fellow Tribunes - Cornelius Saturninus (Wonderland) and Quintus Libo (Glaucus). I am sure they are restless governing Pella and Thessalonika. Surely the Republic has need of Lower House members actively leading our armies elsewhere? I notice that the First Consul's grandson, Servius Aemilius, is en route to Melite. However, I believe more Lower House generals might assist in the war on Thrace. Specifically, one might command in Switzerland and the other might replace Titus Vatinus, who has de facto returned to the Upper House. When the First Consul has driven out the Thracians from south of the Danube, we will still have a long frontier to defend and a few additional reliable commanders would make the task easier.
Finally, I would like to praise the foresight of the First Consul in constructing forts in Gaul for Augustus Verginius and Marcellus Aemilius. It is important for our Lower House generals to keep in the field, even when guarding the frontier. This will advance their own military careers and ultimately serve the Republic by providing it with more accomplished commanders.
{Cornelius Saturninus}
I fear we have indeed underestimated the Thracians. Send me against them Consul Aemilius, the Iberians will have to wait.
Senators,
I will attempt to send all lower house senators to a military command within one season, if they were not already on their way. Bear with me, as the distances to travel are quite long sometimes, and it might be some time before you see combat.
On the matter of Debeltos, I sympathize with your feelings, young Numerius, but there is strategy behind this decision. The threat of war with the Ptolemaic empire has been looming over us. Even if they can not reinforce easily, they have a strong military presence in Asia Minor. For us, reinforcing is just as difficult. Not just their troops, but especially their fleet is my concern at the moment. They are vastly superior to our own navies and we can barely hold our own against the Carthagians. If they joined in that war we will have a serious problem. If Debeltos rebels, which it will, I hope it will occupy the attention of the Ptolemaic empire long enough to improve our strategic position in Asia.
Nevertheless, I have considered hiring mercenaries, but there are none to be found. I will not break up your legion as it travels, as the Ptolemaic empire have a consular-sized army stationed nearby and it would be too risky.
I will give you the choice:
A) Remain in Debeltos with your legion.
B) Abandon Debeltos and attempt to intercept Thracian troops.
C) Abandon Debeltos and invade the Greek cities, but these also will be abandoned (unless we end up bordering them).
I will not leave a small garrison in a city I cannot defend strategically. Our neighbours would be too tempted to attack them and draw us into more wars, which we really cannot afford.
{Cornelius Saturninus}
Consul, do you think there is a chance that Debeltos, if left un-garrisoned, might revolt to Ptolemaic rule instead of opting for independent, rebel status? If so, that will cause an immediate war with the Ptolemies. Do we know where their sympathies lie?
I am also rather isolated in the far SE corner of our republic, waiting for the Ptolomites to attack us, as has been foretold.
I would ask that the first Consul send my north with my legion to battle the Thracians, but I fear it is only my presence that is stopping an Egyptian attack and that as soon as I move out, they will strike.
[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: First Consul, my scouts report that, while there are no mercenaries in Debeltos, just over the border, in Ptolemy's lands, there are half a dozen companies available: two Thracian infantry, two Thracian slingers, one Thracian light cavalry and one Thracian heavy cavalry. My preference, therefore, would be to use Legio V to try to intercept the Thracians but to hire this strong contingent of mercenaries and send them all back to garrison Debeltos. By setting taxes low and building shrines, we should be able to hold Debeltos without unrest in the absence of Legio V.
The cost would be steep - 5500 gold for the mercenaries. However, it would free up Legio V for campaign without surrendering Debeltos to rebels and having to capture it again. Moreover, given the demands of the war with Thracian, money spent on soldiers can scarcely be considered wasteful. The Thracian mercenaries are all good fighters. As Debeltos quietens, the mercenary cavalry could be transferred to the armies of the Co-Consul and Praetor Corcuncanius, who both lack a strong cavalry arm.
However, I am but an instrument of the will of the Senate and will abide by whatever decision the First Consul makes.
I am concerned over the losses we have suffered in the recent events with Thrace and I feel that all able commanders within the region should be carefully re-deployed until we can secure a strong frontier along the Danube. Perhaps spending some time to construct defensive fortifications at all river crossings directly bordering Thrace would be highly beneficial. While temporarily staffing these forts with our legions seems necessary, in the near future it may be wise to establish some small frontier garrisons that would act as the first line of defence against not only our Thracian neighbors, but all our hostile neighbors.
Another thing that concerns me is the composition of the recent Thracian army we have heard of through stories from the front. These Germanic mercenaries dealt heavy losses to our forces in the last engagement, and I feel we need to learn a much greater deal about these new foes before we make any brash decisions concerning outnumbered engagements with Thrace.
Senators,
I will reflect on the many good suggestions made by you. I must now organzie my forces for the coming battle (OCC : Shopping spree), but I have time to direct a few words as some fool has doubleparked in front of my horse.
The city of Debeltos was originally an independant (OCC: Rebel) city, and now that I have razed every building to the ground, it is likely to become independant once again when it rebels.
The costs of hiring so much mercenaries is indeed prohibitive, but as no new reinforcements are expected anytime in the near future, I am inclined to hire them, especially the cavalry, to reinforce Publius Pansa and Tiberius Coruncanius. I will, however, abandon Debeltos after all, unless Numerius Aureolus wants to remain there untill such a time when hostitilies with the Ptolemaic empire break out.
Building forts at the important river crossing is a sound suggestion. (OCC: I would however build them near the river crossings, not on top of them, as otherwise the AI can't cope and would try to go around the entire river, and that would be a bit silly in my opinion).
I agree with my co-consul that he seems rather stuck at the moment. The Ptolemaic empire has sizable forces at the border and I dare not move him. However, you are posted outside the city and so your military career is progressing.
The Germans can be considered the equivalent with our hastati cohorts at least. Usually, they are equipped with large shields and assegais, in addition to their other weapons. Generally they come in groups of 120 warriors. Due to their large numbers, they can inflct horrible slaughter with a rain of assegais before attacking. They also tend to use a demoralizing war cry, which instills fear in their enemies. In addition, there are heavy troops and beserkers, which are truly dangerous foes. Their support units are quite good as well, altough they lack good missile units. But as every german warrior is equipped with assegais, they do not need them.