Srebrenica Massacre

The Dutch didn't have AT weapons.

One of the only forces down there that could deal with Serb armour was the Danish tank company in Tuzla. All other forces were considered light in all areas. That means that in general the heaviest weapons carried would be LMGs and in a few cases HMGs (generally on APCs).

The UN mandate in Bosnia was terribly flawed. The poor soldiers down there as Peacekeepers couldn't wouldn't and weren't supposed to do anything. Then the question pops up, what were they doing there? They were further hampered by the lack of will at bombing, this was for a time mostly by faul of a single man, the Japanese special envoy. He held supreme power, but he was a diplomat and didn't know what he had there and considered military force an asset best not used. Time and again he refused air support, even to forces directly under fire. He reasoned the Serbs would only get more violent if attacked.

This was proven highly flawed when Serbian troops actively attacked a Swedish outpost and their APCs. The Swedes then called for all available support. Air support was denied, but the Danish commander ofthe tank company said "to hell with it!" and drove his tanks out into, what has since been known as Operation Bullybeat (though that is directly translated from Danish). The tanks waited for the Serbs to fire first, then they exploded in an inferno of destruction, and protected the Swedes so they could pull back.
It is estimated they killed around 100 Serbian irregulars that day.
After that day the area the company was to patrol suddenly grew very quiet. And it was called out on several other occations to provide the Peacekeepers with a bit of oompf, and a few times more they had to use their guns (they even began to mount cameras on the turret so they could document their actions).

So yes, a properly equipped force could indeed give the Serbs a good kicking, but the Dutch were not such a force. No proper weapons, with a good amount of their own men caught behind Serbian lines (several outposts had been passed when the Serbs halted outside the town) and the lack of a belief that they would recieve the air support they needed, they were hardly better suited to halting the Serbs than the largely demilitarized Bosnians.

The dutch commander requested air support but it was refused, there also were two dutch f16's in the area who wanted to support the troops on the ground but permission was also denied to them.

I think most of us can agree that it was gross imcompetence of the UN leadership that caused the massacre and not the dutch troops.

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Originally Posted by KrooK

As I told, Dutch batalion behaved bad. If you don't want shot, why you are going on war? Same thing was into Rwanda when 2000 Dutch soldiers watched carefully when 500.000 is being murdered by bad armoured militia.

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A very easy way out. There's a huge difference between not wanting to be shot, and being put into a position where the necessary firepower and support to take on the enemy is simply unavailable. Not only that, but the bosnians in the enclave were actively going against the wishes of the dutch troops and certainly lowered the wish for those troops to put their necks on the line for them; the dutch troops weren't equipped to either control the local population or to halt the advancing serbs, and ultimately the UN and the dutch government are responsible for putting them in that situation. You can't send troops someplace and expect them to complete the objective with sticks and stones.

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Originally Posted by KrooK

With full expect for Dutch batalion - who were they? Dancers or soldiers?
They did nothing and this will be remembered. Serbs definitely wouldn't murder those people if ONZ units had fought. Maybe Dutch batalion was outnumbered but have you seen Black Hawk Down?
Actually they didn't fight which is worst crime for soldier in my opinion.
If you compare behavior of Dutch batalion with polish units on Balkans (like GROM) you can notice that with similar number of men Poles were able to provide peace. Srebrenica and Rwanda were probably worst cards into Dutch army history.

To sum up
1)Srebrenica was place of war crime - crime againt human species.
2)Murders have never been judged, they probably hide under belgrad into place called "underground city" or into mountains of Bosna
3)ONZ soldiers compromitate themselves.

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If the UN didn't deny us air support we could have fought, but the UN is the UN. You try taking on tanks with only light weapons, basicly, UN screwed us over. Too bad about the civilians, but I am glad our boys made it back home.

Tanks into Bagdad - lol m8. THere were no real fight into Bagdad because of poor morale. Iraqui soldier surrendered when they saw tanks. Check russian tanks into Grozny. Dudajev and his soldiers captured or destroyed 60 tanks one day almost without loses. Check tanks into Warsaw Rising 1944. We didn't have ATG's too.

I'm suprised by your words, Dutch friends. If your soldiers have similar point of view, they can't be send to this kind of mission, because they won't manage. In Poland if only volunteers are being sent to this kind of mission and we are always prepared for unexpected situations. Leaving civilians for death has never been accepted into polish army. If you are telling "we couln't help people because we were not prepared and they could kill us" - sorry but I can't think good about your army.

Well I don't know if I'll be able to express this exactly but..

A soldier is a soldier, if they had decided for a defense to protect the civilians, I see no reason that they would not be given support when things would be starting to turn out as a loss for them. At least maybe some actual loss (I know it's so easy to say "loss of a life" but..) would underline the severity of the situation, hence attracting heavier squads and vehicles that could support them. This equals to some kind of humanistic feeling -you know you may not be well enough to counterbalance the assaulters but whom you leave behind were like goldfish thrown in front of sharks.

I may not be right, the psychology of being a soldier is definitely different but well, I still can not walk away saying "oh they couldn't help the situation anyways".

P.S. I'm glad that Dutch troops turned home safe as well, we know how it feels when they don't.

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Originally Posted by KrooK

Tanks into Bagdad - lol m8. THere were no real fight into Bagdad because of poor morale. Iraqui soldier surrendered when they saw tanks. Check russian tanks into Grozny. Dudajev and his soldiers captured or destroyed 60 tanks one day almost without loses. Check tanks into Warsaw Rising 1944. We didn't have ATG's too.

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The Chechens apparently had plenty of anti-tank weapons, including RPGs and anti-aircraft guns (which are often particularly lethal vs tanks, the 88mm anyone?):

http://www.ndu.edu/inss/strforum/SF_38/forum38.html

Modern tanks like the Abrams seem pretty much immune to RPGs (the Challenger 2 surviving 80 hits being one illustration of this). Maybe you can immobilise them by going for the tracks, but the main armour is too thick to breach. There's even a story that Saddam fired an RPG at one in a symbolic guesture before leaving Baghdad. I doubt Molotov cocktails etc impede modern tanks then much. IIRC, two Abrams were lost in Baghdad - there was speculation that one was due to some kind of anti-aircraft missile. It's true the Iraqi soldiers often surrendered, but the irregulars (feydaheen?) sometimes fought hard (80 RPG hits on one tank suggests rather intensive combat) - many seem to be still fighting, years after the invasion. But they clearly find tanks too hard targets.

Now, I know the Serb tanks were no Abrams, but then it seems the Dutch lacked even hand-held anti-tank weapons such as RPGs.

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Originally Posted by KrooK

I'm suprised by your words, Dutch friends. If your soldiers have similar point of view, they can't be send to this kind of mission, because they won't manage. In Poland if only volunteers are being sent to this kind of mission and we are always prepared for unexpected situations. Leaving civilians for death has never been accepted into polish army. If you are telling "we couln't help people because we were not prepared and they could kill us" - sorry but I can't think good about your army.

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Soldiers really don't have much to say about the matter. The government and UN send them there, they do what they're told; fact is, protecting the enclave from any kind of attack was impossible, they were only given light weapons and no permission to engage. Only decent chance would have been given by air support, which was requested but not given. If you're willing to send troops to a region without any decent support or equipment, and expect them to hold a location in a suicide defense - well hey, that's your choice, but I suspect most would disagree, particularly the soldiers! This is why the dutch government resigned over the issue, albeit a cowardly number of years too late.

And let's face it, what would you suggest the dutch troops armed with practically nothing would do to resist the serbs and protect Srebrenica? The best you seem to have come up with is that the dutch die in valiant defense of the enclave, achieving sod all.

The short answer about this issue is that the United Nations failed to provide the basic military command and control structure so that the various nation commanders could cordinate an effective response to a gross violation by either side to the peace.


Now I personally believe the Dutch Commander should of attempted a defense of the civilians - one must also understand that he was left out on his on, without support.

Its very easy to condemn the Dutch for thier failure to even attempt a defense, but if your going to condemn the Dutch, in the same breath and even more so you should be blaming the United Nations for the Massacre. The Srebrenica Massacer demonstrates very well the major problem with the PeaceKeeping Mission and the various mandates involved.

Its extremely difficult to prevent violence if your not going to use violence to prevent it. Peacekeeping is not peace making.

I don’t have time write more because of exams, but I will write about bin Laden and his Al-Qaeda terrorist in Bosnia who were on side of Bosnian Moslems (Bosniaks).

It is well known that Osama bin Laden was several times in Bosnia and Herzegovina and he had direct contacts with peak of Bosnian Moslems and Alija Izetbegovic himself. He directly financed and organized “El Mujaheddin” brigade.

There were three mujaheddin brigades on Moslem side: El Mujaheddin, Ansar and Kataeb al-Munimin.

Leaders of “El Mujaheddin” brigade:
Sheik Answer Shaban – chief of Shari law in brigade
Emir Abu Elharis El Masry
Mustafa El Festiny
Al Muatezu Bellah El Mery – military commander of brigade
Abul Welled El Messry – administrative leader of brigade*

*source Zoran Petrovic Pirocanac "Sunovrat", Belgrade 2000

There is an amateur video tape of those men with the whole units who sit together with Alija Izetbegovic in Sarajevo. A video tape is made by El Mujaheddin cameraman.

Money and terrorists came via “humanitarian organizations” from Saudi Arabia, who are under control of … (I can’t wrote that in public) Those mujaheddins didn’t murdered only Serbs and wiped out/slaughter only Serbian villages they did the same to the Croats but in lesser degree.
When war ended those mujaheddins settled in Bosnia and married Bosniaks women. There are whole villages in Moslem’s cantons in Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina where live those “retired” mujaheddins and wait to be reactivated when time come...

And to mention how Iran help Bosnian Moslems with American bless. Officially it was embargo on exporting weapons to Bosnia. But, Iran without any problems shipped weapons to their Moslem brothers via Croatia. With weapons came also mujaheddins from various Moslem countries like Iran, Sudan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Libya and even from Israel. Sunday Times published inside story about mujaheddins in Bosnia with photographies.
And I almost forgot to mention that some 400 Hezbollah fighters came in Bosnia in summer of 1994 from Lebanon via Iran and Croatia harbors of Rijeka and Split.
I have much more data about mujaheddins and terrorists who fight on Bosnian Moslem side, but I think that’s enough. If somebody wants to know more, please contact me via PM as I will not write about that publicly any more. Yes, I know maybe somebody will say that is all Serbian imagination but it’s not – that what I write can be found even on the internet as that wrote Americans and various Committees in US Congress. And video tapes exist and they were shown in TV stations from Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, Montenegro and Slovenia this and several last years. Of course Bosniaks say this is not true. We all know why waste majority of Western media refuse to publish that.

Bosnian Serbs fought against Izetbegovic and his try to create Islamic Republic of Bosnia and who wanted to impose Sharia. He had help from Iran and other Moslem states. I know that West will never admit that because West allowed that to happen. Double standards… And ICTY’s greatest donators are Saudi Arabia and… and that’s why there are so little Bosniaks accused for war crimes. Case of Naser Oric showed finally without any doubts double standards of ICTY.


Srebrenica wasn’t greatest massacre in Europe after WWII. Srebrenica is the greatest manipulation and myth after WWII. Crimes were committed but not how Bosniaks present that and Western medias like BBC, CNN and others.
And it’s a far away from genocide. Genocide was what Stalin and his followers did in Soviet Union.

DukeofSerbia, yours was an interesting post, and I agree that the Bosnians were no sweeties in the war either, but how does your post relate to the murder of some 8,000, largely completely innocent, males in Srebrenica, which is the topic at hand?

The fighting in Bosnia ... well, the Serbs were also facing the Croatian armed forces there, not just Bosnian troops. Although, officially, we were never there (thus you get official records of soldiers consisting of 'assigned to base whatever' for several years, despite having been in the war). Most of the Bosnian troops were indeed Muslim, but for a very different reason, consult the paragraph below.

As to the motives behind the whole thing ... well, every other side wanted more territory, Croatia the traditionally Croatian western and southern parts, Serbia the traditionally Serbian eastern and, partly, northern parts. Essentially, the idea was to let Bosnia consist of the strip around Sarajevo (if even that) that was mostly Muslim (and, essentially, the only bunch that fought for Bosnia, and not their respective countries).

Srebrenica and a number of other such events were likely perofmed to re-forge the country according to such conceptions. Whether such acts were commited by state goverments or simply by individual commanders may never be known, after all, the two people who were most likely to know are now dead.

Geoffrey - why Duke speaks like that. CHeck his nick - OF SERBIA.
It's a bit hard to tell "yep guys, they homes looked well and we need to settle somewhere after war". Better is telling "some of them might be terrorist and now no terrorist into Srebrenica".

Guys - T72 aren't Abrams. I'm absolutely sure that Serbs didn't have better tanks. During comunism they didn't buy tanks on west, only into other communist countries. And I don't think Russians sold them T90.
T720 can be easy destroyed or damaged by RPGs or anti-tank hand grenades. And remember that most of muslim fanatic never shot with RPG before firing into tank, which I can't tell about regular army.

I must tell that I can't understand your point of view and you can't understand mine, but .....
If there were polish batalion, we wouldn't surrender on tank's view.
Your soldiers had an order - protect civilians. They failed to attempt order.....
Furthermore Dutch soldiers must have been a bit strange if they didn't prepare defense. Actually on every mission Poles are driving (don't care what mission and what mandate), they are always preparing strong, easy to defend camp. Very good example might be Camp Babilon into Iraq - attacked so many times, always without success.

Duke of Serbia - you are speaking like coward. Myth, manipulation - do not lie!!!! Just tell me, why there is so many multiple graves - maybe collective suicide by shot into back of head? Why similar graves had been found in Kosovo? Suicide's plague? Why Mladic has not been sent to Hague - is he so afraid? He is innocent who why he is so scared? And please do not tell about genocide because this is one of the worst lies I have seen on .org.
It was classical genocide - similar both to Stalin and Hitler job. Actually talking about method much more to Stalin.
Serb units murdered muslims because they were muslims and they were majority there. And if there were peace, Srebrenica would be muslim town. Would be....

Ahh and I would forgot.
Croats are not afraid of sending their generals to Hague.
Serbs are - something to hide?

Just because something is reported in the media does not mean that it actually happened!

Fallujah;
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...&articleId=740
"From the air and from the grounds, US forces indiscriminately killed civilians holding white flags or white clothes over their heads, murdered the wounded fighters, killed unarmed Iraqis who had been taken prisoner, and destroyed mosques, hospitals, and health centres protected under international law.

All males between the ages of 16 and 60 years old were slaughtered. US forces attacked and occupied the Fallujah Hospitals to prevent the publication and counting of civilian casualties. Patients and doctors in the Hospital were taken hostages and abused by US forces and their Iraqi collaborators. "Staff have been attacked by US marines, doctors have been shot, emergency medicines blocked. Children have been murdered in front of their families."

Did this happen?
Not likely!

Cohen Fears 100,000 Kosovo Men Killed by Serbs
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...ohen051699.htm

Did this happen?

The Kosovo "genocide" in fact turns out not to have happened.
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0902-02.htm


Iraq was responsible for the 11 September attacks!
Secretary Rumsfeld; "al-Qaida is operating in Iraq"...that we have "accurate and not debatable" evidence of reportedly the presence of senior members of al-Qaida in Baghdad, and other associations...."
Iraq was seeking uranium from Africa (Niger) for a "reconstituted" nuclear weapons program!
Iraq was trying to import aluminum tubes to develop nuclear weapons!
Iraq still had vast stocks of chemical and biological weapons from the first Gulf War!
Iraq has mobile labs to build biological weapons!
American troops would be greeted with flowers!

How much of this turned out to be true?

The Srebrenica Massacre?

Retired Major-General Lewis MacKenzie, commander of the
UN peacekeeping forces in Sarajevo;

"Evidence given at The Hague war crimes tribunal casts serious doubt on the figure of "up to" 8,000 Bosnian Muslims massacred. That figure includes "up to" 5,000 who have been classified as missing. More than 2,000 bodies have been recovered in and around Srebrenica, and they include victims of the three years of intense fighting in the area. The math just doesn't support the scale of 8,000 killed."

http://www.srebrenica-report.com/numbers.htm

Did this happen?
Well, massacres certainly happened on both sides!
Where is the proof of slaughter on this scale?

Need a war? Lie your ass off!
It worked for Clinton and Bush!

Hitler was right!

His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it. - OSS report page 51


Wag the Dog wasn't a movie it was prophecy!

Well, the 'need a war' was unnecessary ... there already was a war there. Propaganda reasons? Again, unncesarry ... there was more than enough name-calling, nationalism and will to continue the war (in fact, there were no noticable groups calling for an end to the war present), thereby removing the need for the fabriacation of such evidence or myths.

The thing is, there are a lot of mass graves, and finding such places is notoriously difficult. They tend to be unmarked, you know. Sometimes new ones are found long after the war has been fought ...

Although it is possible that the number is overestimated, I guess. The mass graves in this area rarely held more than a hundred people ... which is still a hundred more than allowed. Numbers are, in the end, not important. Whether it is 8,000 or 2,000 is irrelevant, it happened, it was a crime against humanity ... genocide cannot be applied to a single event, it has to be part of a larger plan (and I am uncertain one existed, although I stand on the position that there likely was one).

Well, Clinton did need to justify an American/NATO intervention.

If it was only 2,000 and from that you remove the Serbian soldiers killed and buried after battle as well as the Bosnian soldiers killed in the fighting. And then you remove the Serbian civilians killed by Bosnian forces and Bosnian civilians killed by Serbian soldiers in three years of warfare you don't end up with a large number. There were atrocities on all sides and without question the Serbs are guilty of their share. The idea of a great massacre doesn't seem to be supported by the evidence I have seen.

In addition I think we need to be less gullible about media driven war drums, from either the left or right of the political spectrum.

No, the bodies have not been found near the Serb villages but rather nearer to Bosnian villages and teh town itself.

Look up the war criminal Naser Oric (Bosnian) from Srebrenica and you will soon understand that his troops comitted the majority of the Bosnian atrocities there, but tended to kill in the region around the targeted villages. So Serbian victims lie around Serbian villages.

In a way I terribly hate this series of atrocities in the Balkans.

This thread is an interesting read -- very interesting -- but also very frustrating.

You have these normally really very reasonable people with essentially similar viewpoints in other issues posting extreme stuff calling "the other side" a bunch of liars and genocidal criminals. I can't for the life of me decide for certain what the hell happened there exactly, except for the fact that there are a lot of murderers, a lot of the murdered, and a lot of mass graves left as the legacy of it all.

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

You have these normally really very reasonable people with essentially similar viewpoints in other issues posting extreme stuff calling "the other side" a bunch of liars and genocidal criminals. I can't for the life of me decide for certain what the hell happened there exactly, except for the fact that there are a lot of murderers, a lot of the murdered, and a lot of mass graves left as the legacy of it all.

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*Inserts quote into generic debate on generic war*

The truth of war is that we never really know what happened. Sure we can know the general things, such as strategy, tactics, logistics and economy. But when we get lower and follow the individuals we don't really know. We don't really know what happened in all those cases where soldiers 'didn't tell'.
For the historian war is a conundrum. It is a treasurechest of information, but at the same time it is a black hole of knowledge.

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Originally Posted by KrooK

I'm suprised by your words, Dutch friends. If your soldiers have similar point of view, they can't be send to this kind of mission, because they won't manage. In Poland if only volunteers are being sent to this kind of mission and we are always prepared for unexpected situations. Leaving civilians for death has never been accepted into polish army. If you are telling "we couln't help people because we were not prepared and they could kill us" - sorry but I can't think good about your army.

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Well mia muca, that is nice to hear if we ever need bulletmeat, we will go polish. The UN should have given the support that was needed, let's leave charging tanks with cavalry in the old days. There is really nothing that we could do, we had the planes to attack the serb tanks but the UN wouldn't allow it. The UN screwed these people over, and because of their screaming incompetence we could have lost people as well.

I didn’t want to, but I will. I will participate in a debate which perhaps shouldn’t be in the History part.
Anyway, I was in Bosnia during the first offensive against Srebrenica and Zepa and a other pocket I forgot the name…

I met Serbian soldiers who told me that they will kill every body because the slaughter by the Muslims from Srebrenica, of some 192 Serbian villages according Lt. Col Karremans … I will not give here the details of what was done against the population. I won’t tell you how the Serbs natives of Srebrenica were treated by the Muslim Commander, Naser Oric… It was not nice…
Gal Morillon's testimony: “Today, there are virtually no Serbs left in the entire Srebrenica municipality. Out of 9300 Serbs who used to live there, less than 900 remain. Out of the 11,500 Serbs who used to live in the Bratunac munipality, more than 6000 have fled. In the Srebrenica municipality, only three Serbian villages remain and around 26 have been destroyed; in the Bratunac municipality, about 24 Serbian villages have been razed. The last major Serbian villages in the vicinity of Bratunac and Skelani were attacked and destroyed on January 7, 1993.”

After Morillon, a knife put on his throat, declared Srebrenica was declared safe area the enclave was supposed to be disarmed… It never happened…

“Halilovic put the number of troops in the 28th division in Srebrenica at 5 803.
In testimony before the War Crimes Tribunal, General Halilovic acknowledges using helicopters to resupply and further militarize the supposed “safe area.” Reminded that the safe area agreement specifically prohibited flights from Tuzla to Srebrenica and Zepa to provide military supplies, Halilovic testified defiantly: “It is correct that I sent eight helicopters with ammunition, and if could have, I would have sent 180.”
“According to British military analyst Tim Ripley, Dutch troops later “saw Bosnian troops escaping from Srebrenica move past their observation points carrying brand new anti-tank weapons, still in their plastic wrappings. This, and other similar reports, made many UN officers and international journalists suspicious.”

We are far from a Safe and disarmed area here…

“Duke of Serbia - you are speaking like coward. Myth, manipulation - do not lie!!!! Just tell me, why there is so many multiple graves - maybe collective suicide by shot into back of head? Why similar graves had been found in Kosovo? Suicide's plague? Why Mladic has not been sent to Hague - is he so afraid? He is innocent who why he is so scared? And please do not tell about genocide because this is one of the worst lies I have seen on .org.
It was classical genocide - similar both to Stalin and Hitler job. Actually talking about method much more to Stalin.
Serb units murdered muslims because they were muslims and they were majority there. And if there were peace, Srebrenica would be muslim town. Would be....”

I am French I will speak for him.
Srebrenica was in majority Muslim because the previous war the Muslims slaughtered the Serbian population. SS division Handzar and Kama did quite a good job. I know that two wrong don’t make one good, but it has to be said.

Actually he didn’t lie. My translator (one of) in Gorazde was in Mudjaidin (sp) Brigade…
You have interesting questions: Where are the graves in Kosovo. Where are the bodies allegedly thrown in the mines? Where are the satellite pictures shown by Madeleine Albright for Srebrenica and Kosovo?
Lies sure but most of them from us, the democracies.…
Not I deny the killing of prisoners and civilians… But, do you know how the number of 8000 (some figures went up to 10000) was reach: based on the number of daily ration from the Red Cross. This ignores the fact that most of the Bosniak troops were withdrawn before the offensive… This makes the number of the victims at between 2000 and 4000, still unacceptable…
The multiple graves can found in every battle field, it not a proof as such… And actually, we have so difficulties to find more bodies, I mean the good ones…
All graves are not of Muslims…
Now, why Mladic is not in The Hague: Two reasons: he is guilty of the massacre, and he has no chance to get a fair trial. Plus 3 Serbs dying in The Hague isn’t a good reason to surrender…
My Grand Father killed Germans because they were Germans and they were occupying France. This doesn’t make him a “genocider”… In all wars you kill your enemy because they from another nationality…

“Croats are not afraid of sending their generals to Hague”: Read newspapers my friend, Gotovina was caught outside Croatia. The Serbs sent their President (after a Revolution). Tudjman and Izetbegovic were supposed to go to The Hague BUT AFTER their death. Joke…
Where is Mate Boban, where is Boro Paravac? Not in The Hague…

Perhaps this should be moved to the backroom, since most of the discussion has been more politically charged than objectively historical.

Ajax

Very excellent piece of enlightening information, Brenus. Thank you for sharing. :bow:

My french friend. In Kosovo polish soldiers found some multiple graves. There are some movies from journalist who followed soldiers on patrol. During defusing landmines soldiers found bodies. I can't show movie now but there were relation into our tv. Looks like someone killed these people and planted mines as a trap. Furthermore some months ago there was released movie from massacre - Serbs murdered some muslims and smiled to camera.

Your statement about killing every man who belong to enemy nation is false. As you see here your grandfather was killing Germans (maybe into 1940 :) - you killed many then ) because they were Germans. Ok I understand. So why Germans didn't kill every man into Paris? According to your words, they were absolutely allowed. :)
Poles didn't kill women and children after they were given big part of Germany.
Despite Germans killed 6.000.000 of our citizens.

Generals
Not only Serbs died into Hague - butcher of Vukovar commit suicide. Actually here I'm not crying on his grave.


Let's finish this topic because it changed into empty words.

To sum up
1)There were massacre.
2)ONZ did nothing.
3)Serbs murdered muslims.
4)Murderers have never been sent to court.

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Originally Posted by KrooK

Poles didn't kill women and children after they were given big part of Germany.
Despite Germans killed 6.000.000 of our citizens.

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"Red Army soldiers and Poles would often beat, rape, and rob the Germans of what few possessions they carried; resistance could mean death. Poles did kill thousands of Germans that were awaiting expulsion, and imprisoned many in camps in which conditions "approached those of the murderous Nazi period, in which sadism was given free rein and internees were left to starve slowly to death." Note, for example, that of the 8,064 Germans in Camp Lamsdorf in Upper Silesia, 6,488 (including 628 children) died from starvation, disease, hard labor, and physical maltreatment. No doubt, "tens of thousands" similarly died in other Polish internment camps."

"the estimates among Germans themselves for the human cost of the expulsion from the German eastern territories varies from 800,000 to 3,200,000 dead."

Ok Sharrukin. Your statement is so false that I suggest move it to other topic when I will be able to comment it. But before Moderator do it , some suggestions.
1)Use polish names. I don't know what was Camp Lamsdorft, but i might know polish name of that place. If you are talking about Poland please using polish names.
2)Tell your sources. As for now you "...." has same worth like "dogs are definitely female version of cats".

To make your life easier Lamsdorf is called Łambinowice and was heavy prison or camp since war beetwen France and Prussia. During ww2 it was one of the biggest camps for prisoners of war. After ww2 it was camp of work and temporary camp for Germans who were sent back do Germany or for Germans suspected for supporting nazi partizans in Poland.
Quite sad part of our history, because some people died there but generally we didn't build that camp. It has been build by Prussians and renovated by Gestapo.
This camp was declared Place of National Memory and now there is Museum of Prisoners of War.

I don't know where you read about these 800.000 do 3.200.000 Germans killed by Poles but I think into Steinbach's kind book. Please reveal your sources.

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Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine

Very excellent piece of enlightening information, Brenus. Thank you for sharing. :bow:

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I sentiment I must echo. Interesting post, Brenus.

My french friend. In Kosovo polish soldiers found some multiple graves. There are some movies from journalist who followed soldiers on patrol. During defusing landmines soldiers found bodies. I can't show movie now but there were relation into our tv. Looks like someone killed these people and planted mines as a trap. Furthermore some months ago there was released movie from massacre - Serbs murdered some muslims and smiled to camera.”
Yes, it did happen. Do you want to see the heads of the Serbs killed by Oric? Do you want to see the tape of the Serbian kids killed with hammers, axes and lead pipes at school in Vukovar during the period May-November (date when the JNA started to bomb then take the town) by the Croatian ZNG?
I refused to go in a church in Derventa where the bodies of Serbian teenagers were exposed, because what was done to them can’t be described. What men can do to men...
Don’t misunderstand what I am saying: I don’t deny that the Serbs slaughtered and massacred and deported during the war. What I am saying is every time one side had the opportunity to do so they did it.
But the Serbs are the only one actually blame for it. And this is wrong, if you really want to provide justice, peace and stability to the region.
Exaggeration of figures will just create resentment. Between 3000 and 4000 killed is enough… Why to add figures and bodies?

”Your statement about killing every man who belong to enemy nation is false. As you see here your grandfather was killing Germans (maybe into 1940 :) - you killed many then ) because they were Germans. Ok I understand. So why Germans didn't kill every man into Paris? According to your words, they were absolutely allowed.
Poles didn't kill women and children after they were given big part of Germany.
Despite Germans killed 6.000.000 of our citizens.”
No, what I said is to kill people because they belong to a nationality is not a proof as such of genocide. My grand-Father blew-up Germans trains from 1941 to 1944. He was a partisan.
Mass graves are not a proof of genocide. Verdun is a big mass grave. However it isn’t a genocide.
It isn’t a question to be allowed or not. When the Germans 2nd SS Division Das Reich killed all the population of Oradour Sur Glane, burned alive women and children in the church, it was a war-crime, not genocide.


Generals
Not only Serbs died into Hague - butcher of Vukovar commit suicide. Actually here I'm not crying on his grave.
Butcher of Vukovar? I don’t think he did commit suicide, he had a heart attack if I remember well, and the guard was so slow to react that he died… If he would have been found guilty, it would have been better… The problem is that his Croatian counter-part (Glavac) is actually still free and in the regional government where he carries on the Ethnic Cleansing he started in 1991… The killing of the Serbian POW by the Croats and the disappearance of many of them (they ended most probably in the Danube) don’t bother the International Community…

Again, it is not justice. The Hague tribunal is not a place for justice, but a place of self-justification.

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Originally Posted by KrooK

Ok Sharrukin. Your statement is so false that I suggest move it to other topic when I will be able to comment it. But before Moderator do it , some suggestions.

2)Tell your sources. As for now you "...." has same worth like "dogs are definitely female version of cats".

I don't know where you read about these 800.000 do 3.200.000 Germans killed by Poles but I think into Steinbach's kind book. Please reveal your sources.

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Even Pravda now admits what happened! As to sources they are so numerous that if you wanted to find them you would have!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsi...r_World_War_II

http://www.meaus.com/Expulsion_of_Germans.html

http://freedomspeace.blogspot.com/20...ocide-and.html

http://experts.about.com/e/e/ex/Expu...rld_War_II.htm

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP7.HTM

http://www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1999/029918.shtml

http://wintersonnenwende.com/scripto...ok/desg26.html

http://www.read-all-about-it.org/gru.../chapter2.html

http://www.globalguide.org/index.htm...r_World_War_II

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Originally Posted by KrooK

Quite sad part of our history, because some people died there but generally we didn't build that camp. It has been build by Prussians and renovated by Gestapo.

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The Germans didn't construct the buildings in the warsaw ghetto either but they are morally responsible for what they did there!