Pope enrages muslim world, inspires death threats by suggesting Islam not peaceful

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Originally Posted by Pindar

I see. So the Pope is ignored and over-the-hill and Catholicism itself is a failing religion because of the evils done by some Priests in the U.S.? Hmmm.

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To a certain extent, his edicts are ignored. The evils done by the priests and the extent that the church went to cover up those evils has certaintly hurt the religion to the point that one could reasonably say that it has fallen in stature and influence.

Muslims react with violent threats in protest of a sugestion they are not peacefull.....

Pro-life christians kill doctors......


It´s these little ironies that make religion almost worth having around....










....don´t be shocked!...I said almost!:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

The only thing that makes the Roman Catholic Church unique in this regard is that while everyone else tries their damndest to root the pedophiles out and bar their access to children, the entire organization, including those at the highest levels, dedicate themselves to using whatever means necessary, including threats of excommunication, to silence the accusers and move the violators into new and fertile hunting grounds.

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Entire organization? Don, does this seem a sustainable position to you?

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But you asked me why the vitriol, not why I think they are a failing religion.

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I asked about your hostility and quoted you regarding the Pope and Catholicism as a failing religion.

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Go to any of the traditional strongholds of the Roman Catholic faith: France, Italy, Southern Germany, Ireland, East Coast USA, Austria, etc. Less than 20% attendance, and less than 5% by people under 40. Does that sound like a thriving, prospering religion to you?

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The loss of devotion in Western Europe is not exclusive to Catholicism. The same is the case in Traditional Protestant Europe.

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I am a devout Christian, but frankly, somedays I have to wonder if I'm not just believing wives tales when the Lord of Hosts allows men such as Law to blaspheme in His name and excommunicate children to silence them.

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Evil predates the acts of clerical pederasts and those who cover for them. I think your hostility is blinding you to a great religious tradition full of good people. You are a good guy and shouldn't give in to such.

If you want to continue to discuss this, Pindar, that's fine, but we should start another thread. I promise to limit my critcisms of the Catholic Church in this one for now. I don't view my views as blinkered, however, as I have Cardinal Law's promotion in light of his abuses to support my case, but again, this belongs in another thread.

As for Leet's point that one man's protesting becomes rioting where muslims are involved.... here you may have a point. In actually digging through to find examples of violent behavior in response to the Pope's speech, I am coming up rather shorthanded. It seems to be more hints of violence and threats of violence then violence itself. You're right that burning people in effigy is fairly harmless and shouldn't be construed as real violence. Perhaps what really sets us apart is a cultural difference... protests in the Middle East simply tend to be more lively then in Europe or the USA. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I did say some nasty things about Ratzinger, and I hold to them. I edited them not because I don't stand behind them, but because I don't think I need to offend practicing Catholics in this dialogue, and I'll pick one, maybe two boogeymen per thread (and Ratzingers Nazi ties are yet another thread).

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Well, I don't like the pope or the catholic church either, but the point about ratzinger being a Nazi is pretty weird since he was a kid back then, raised under Nazi doctrine with no other perspective given.

On topic I think that it's usually the bad guys who make a company, group or religion look bad.

A Laden blows up two towers -> all muslims are terrorist breeders
A Bush calls for crusade -> all christians are warmongering idiots
A Putin wants an empire -> all Russians are evil imperialist commies
A Hitler starts WW2 -> all Germans are evil Nazis who murder jews in their spare time

Maybe some monkeysphere phenomenon in that we take the actions of a famous person as example for the actions and thoughts of all of his or her "followers"(or who we think are his followers), especially if we have some previous prejudice anyway.

What some people obviously aren't seeing is the demographics of these rioters/threat makers/whatever.

One, it's small.

Two, they come from a select population.

Consider where Leet...fiz comes from. The UAE. A religious place, though rich (better per-person income than here I believe), prosperous, educated. Is that the source of much tussle?

Remember the India riots over the Da Vinci Code? Not much in rioting at home though...

There's a point to all of this. Essentially, poor people, perhaps oppressed in some way, are most prone to extremism. The fact just happens to be that the Muslim world has more of these places than the Christian world.

Do also recall, that Soundgarden (:rockstar:) recieved numerous death threats for their song "Jesus Christ Pose", which actually criticizes Perry and other rockstars for imitating Jesus on stage. They hadn't blown up yet either, this predated the Seattle explosion.

By the way, here are some responses from high level Muslim leaders around the world. They certainly don't tow the line with the impression of the first post/title...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5348436.stm

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Originally Posted by PALESTINIAN PRIME MINISTER ISMAIL HANIYA

In the name of our Palestinian people... we express our condemnation of the statements of his Excellency the Pope, against Islam as a belief, sharia, history, and a lifestyle.

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Ooh..."his Excellency"...tactful...

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Originally Posted by YOUSSEF AL-QARDAWI, QATARI MUSLIM CLERIC AND HEAD OF ISLAMIC SCHOLARS' ASSOCIATION

Our hands are outstretched and our religion calls for peace, not for war, for love not for hatred, for tolerance, not for fanaticism, for knowing each other and not for disavowing each other.

We condemn this and we want to know the explanation of this and what is intended by this. We call on the pope, the pontiff, to apologise to the Islamic nation because he has insulted its religion and Prophet, its faith and Sharia without any justification.

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Damn, and I thought he was going to call for a beheading... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by YOUSEF AL-KHOEI, HEAD OF ISLAMIC CHARITY

He should really know better than quoting a 14th Century Christian emperor who was a political man who made his statements for a political reason... I do not know why people choose to quote things out of context when you have clear instructions in Islam which says no forced conversion. Why do we need a Christian emperor to tell us what Islam is?

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Ooh, pretty intelligent refutation...

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

If you want to continue to discuss this, Pindar, that's fine, but we should start another thread. I promise to limit my critcisms of the Catholic Church in this one for now. I don't view my views as blinkered, however, as I have Cardinal Law's promotion in light of his abuses to support my case, but again, this belongs in another thread.

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OK.

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Originally Posted by Reenk Roink

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Thank you so much Reenk.

:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Yes, you're right, it was a few American priests.

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Am I missing something here? The pedophile priest problem has not been confined to the borders of the U.S.A., not by a long shot. I don't have time to dig up a pile of original links, but here's a summary:

One of the worst examples of a clergyman using his links with families to facilitate the abuse of children occurred in Ireland, where one priest ² systematically raped and sexually abused hundreds of boys between 1945 and 1990. The scandal over the Fr. Brendan Smyth case, and the systematic obstruction of justice in his case by the Norbertine Order caused immense damage to the credibility of the Catholic church in Ireland, as did other cases, such as that of Fr. Jim Grennan, a parish priest, who abused children as they prepared for First Communion, and Fr. Sean Fortune, who committed suicide before his trial for the rape of children. The abuse by Grennan and others in the Diocese of Ferns in south-east Ireland led to the resignation of the local bishop, Brendan Comiskey, while similar scandals in the Archdiocese of Dublin severely damaged the reputation of its archbishop, Cardinal Connell. Although there were other social factors at play, some have argued that the ten-year drop in the percentage of Irish people attending weekly Mass (from 63% to 48%) was related to these events.

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Originally Posted by Keba

Well, technically, the Pope didn't say Islam was violent ... he merely quoted Manuel II, and that guy said it. That's if you feel like nitpicking.

@Bloodrast: That post wasn't intended to be serious ... I thought that the lesson learned bit would make that obvious.

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Oh, okay, I didn't catch the sarcasm - sorry, my humor-meter is probably having a slow day :)
No probs, anyway :)

[QUOTE=Lemur]Am I missing something here? The pedophile priest problem has not been confined to the borders of the U.S.A., not by a long shot. I don't have time to dig up a pile of original links, but [\QUOTE]

I'm going to chalk this one up to you and I being on different wavelengths. Allow me to correct my original statement: a few priests here and there. As with pedophiles in all walks of life, it's a relatively small number of priests that have actually engaged in the behavior. It's because pedophiles are so prodigious in their activities that even one or two can rack up such a large body count. This is true of pedophiles at all levels. The uniqueness of the situation of the Catholic church is the protection level. If you're a rabbi or a lutheran minister and you get caught doing these things, they strip you of your ecclesiastical authority and hand you in to the secular authorities. The Catholic Church seems to be content to 1) move you to another parish where you're unknown 2) payoff those victims and witnesses that will take money to keep quiet and 3) proceed to threaten those that didn't take the money in #2 with excommunication (which, for those non-Catholics out there, to a believer is a fate worse than death, as your immortal soul is in immediate jeoprady of Hell and you cannot receive the sacrament of reconciliation, it's supposed to be reserved for heresy and other acts against the Church at large, not for shutting up molested children).

[QUOTE=Don Corleone]

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Am I missing something here? The pedophile priest problem has not been confined to the borders of the U.S.A., not by a long shot. I don't have time to dig up a pile of original links, but [\QUOTE]

I'm going to chalk this one up to you and I being on different wavelengths. Allow me to correct my original statement: a few priests here and there. As with pedophiles in all walks of life, it's a relatively small number of priests that have actually engaged in the behavior. It's because pedophiles are so prodigious in their activities that even one or two can rack up such a large body count. This is true of pedophiles at all levels. The uniqueness of the situation of the Catholic church is the protection level. If you're a rabbi or a lutheran minister and you get caught doing these things, they strip you of your ecclesiastical authority and hand you in to the secular authorities. The Catholic Church seems to be content to 1) move you to another parish where you're unknown 2) payoff those victims and witnesses that will take money to keep quiet and 3) proceed to threaten those that didn't take the money in #2 with excommunication (which, for those non-Catholics out there, to a believer is a fate worse than death, as your immortal soul is in immediate jeoprady of Hell and you cannot receive the sacrament of reconciliation, it's supposed to be reserved for heresy and other acts against the Church at large, not for shutting up molested children).

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Hmm, this may again be a discussion for another thread, but I'll go ahead and ask in this one anyway. Don, I can understand your frustration with the institution (although I don't necessarily agree with your view that if there are a few rotten fruits in the orchard, the entire thing is bad). But why did you change your beliefs, rather than just stop going to church, and remain a Catholic ? I mean, believing whatever Catholicism preaches should not be changed in any way by what the institution does or does not. In my opinion, of course.

I'm asking out of curiosity, I'm not pointing fingers or anything of the kind, and I hope you don't take it that way. I'm specifying this, because I know it's hard to get tone and implications from an Internet board post...

Apologies if I'm derailing this thread, and, if you want, of course we can save this for another thread or something similar.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I'm going to chalk this one up to you and I being on different wavelengths.

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Hey, I wasn't trying to misrepresent your position, and I'm sorry if I did. It was one of those moments when you read something, say to yourself, "Is he saying what I think he's saying?" and post a little more backround info. Please have patience with the lemur when he misunderstands you. It's not meant maliciously.

I didn't take it that way. It was more a sigh of frustration at the misunderstanding itself then defensive posturing. I would think it goes without saying that the pedophilia crisis looms over the entire world. The reason it appears to be so prevalent in the US is we actually air our dirty laundry. I in no way meant to imply that I believed it was a uniquely American Catholic affair, nor did I take offense with you Lemur when you read my phrase a little too literally. The fault, if any, is mine for sloppy lanaguage. :bow:

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Originally Posted by Reenk Roink

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Great post. That pretty much sums it up.

You know, it occurs to me that what Benedict did to Law was move him out of his own little Empire back to the Vatican where he can't do very much damage. Its the sort of move you make when you want to de-fany someone without causing too many waves within your own institution.

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Originally Posted by Wigferth Ironwall

You know, it occurs to me that what Benedict did to Law was move him out of his own little Empire back to the Vatican where he can't do very much damage. Its the sort of move you make when you want to de-fany someone without causing too many waves within your own institution.

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I agree- it was no promotion.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

SilverRusher, my issue is not with the buggery itself. Sadly, that shows up everywhere, and yes, you're right, it was a few American priests.

My issue is much deeper... the hypocricy and the sheer evil of an organization that would threaten children with excommunication for going to the police with their stories. Before you go defending the bigwigs of the Church and how it was only a couple of priests, you really ought to go do some research into how many times offending priests have been reassigned. Go read about the Navajo mission in Northwestern New Mexico. Read about Shanley joining NAFTA, and Law telling him not that his desires were evil, but that he ought not to be so public about them.

I did say some nasty things about Ratzinger, and I hold to them. I edited them not because I don't stand behind them, but because I don't think I need to offend practicing Catholics in this dialogue, and I'll pick one, maybe two boogeymen per thread (and Ratzingers Nazi ties are yet another thread).

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What on Earth does the North American Free Trade Agreement have to do with buggery?

(Aside from you Yanks bending us Canucks over the table in the softwood lumber dispute?)

~;p

Oops, substitute NAMBLA for NAFTA, sorry about that. :oops:

Any org theologians know if Poppy Benny's lecture qualifies as an ex cathedra pronouncement?

If not, it's just one man's opinion.

But if so, it obligates the world's catholics to some kind of active affirmation.

Either way, Sunday's sermons this week ought to be interesting.

I believe the Pope has to declare he is speaking ex cathedra, and that it has to be about certain matters only. So I'm going to say no, if I didn't get mixed up about your question.

Crazed Rabbit

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

Any org theologians know if Poppy Benny's lecture qualifies as an ex cathedra pronouncement?

If not, it's just one man's opinion.

But if so, it obligates the world's catholics to some kind of active affirmation.

Either way, Sunday's sermons this week ought to be interesting.

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No, I dont think it was. Besides, his point "Conversion by violence is not of God" is pretty tough to disagree with either way. Him quoting a long dead emperor while making that point doesnt make for some sort of Church proclamation against Islam.

well his holiness should have knew what was coming..

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Among other incidents include a bombing at a Greek Orthodox church (and if anybody has had it in for the Papacy through the centuries, it would be the Greek Orthodox church).

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That is'nt a good way to try to prove you arent a violent religion ("We are not violent!" "in other news another muslim bombing....")

Why bomb an Orthodox church because the Pope said something. I thot the enemy of my enemy is my friend, not the guy I will hurt because I am angry.
Talk about being dumb.

Yes lets just insult eachother. What does anyone gain in this? Nothing this in no way furthers any relations with anyone. Why the pope would say this is utterly beyond me. Ethier find peace or fight to the death. Im sick of the enemoures egos when it comes to ismlaomfacism on both sides.

Well I refuse to fight for any religion... if Pope McPopeHat wants a Crusade I won't be joining.

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

Any org theologians know if Poppy Benny's lecture qualifies as an ex cathedra pronouncement?.

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No, it was simply a lecture.

I know that the Backroom contains people who like to pursue knowledge, and those that prefer to rant.

In the spirit of the former, I post a link to the Holy Father's actual speech. It was an intelligent reflection on the nature of God as reason, something that has exercised us here on occasion. He quoted Emperor Manuel II Paleologus from the text written by the emperor, recounting a debate with a Persian.

In essence, His Holiness was arguing for the belief that the biblical God is the fount of reason and that violence to promote faith is both unreasonable and doomed to failure. He noted that this was a position that Mohammed (p.b.u.h.) took originally, but then changed to support violent spread of the faith in his later years. The philosophical essence of Allah was that His word was absolute (even the interlocutor reported was arguing that Allah was not even bound by his own word).

In essence, Pope Benedict was charting the journey that Christianity has taken from peaceful origins through violent conversions to reasoned co-existence and arguing that this last was more reflective of God as logos (in Greek, word or reason). In contrast, fundamentalism in both camps was ignoring reason in favour of emotional and practical violence, and thus a dialogue between reasoning people in both religions might bring understanding.

It is a thoughtful speech and one that bears reflection. How some Muslim leaders have stoked it up into:

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Originally Posted by SALIH KAPUSUZ, DEPUTY LEADER OF TURKEY'S RULING AK PARTY

The owner of those unfortunate and arrogant comments, Benedict XVI, has gone down in history, but in the same category as Hitler and Mussolini.

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is rather beyond me, unless they believe that discussing the root causes of the evil that is perpetrated in Islam's name makes them feel vulnerable and on the defensive. The reaction rather proves the point that reason is becoming a scarce commodity in the face of the fundamentalist threat.

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

It was an intelligent refection on the nature of God as reason, something that has exercised us here on occasion.

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From what I've know of Benedict XVI he appears a thoughtful, perceptive mind.

Look, Islam is a violent religion. The Koran implicity preaches hatered and jihad. And it's about time everyone woke up to that.

I can quote directly from the Koran to prove my point.

There are portions of the Koran that promote peace, but unfortunately they were written before the violent ones. And in the Koran, the later writings replace the older ones.