However all of this would be rendered moot if the convoy was protected adequately in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump
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However all of this would be rendered moot if the convoy was protected adequately in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump
Hey, who here wants their backs to be covered by MRD?Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump
If those guys can't be bothered to do their job in this scenario, then what the effin' use are they going to be in any other situation? I don't understand your logic. They were supposed to protect these civilians. It was a convoy. How simple can that be?
I'm confused MRD - why are you referring to the driver as "Texas Johnson"? His name was Preston Wheeler. I googled his name and this was the first report:
http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pb...awkeye_insider
This report gives Wheeler's account and says three civilian drivers were executed in cold blood by the insurgents during the ambush after their military escort left the scene. The army took 40 minutes to return. Preston Wheeler took two AK-47 bullets and was later fired for a "company injury" (I hope that does not refer to the two bullets). It also says the military policy in 2005 when this happened was to leave the site of an ambush and come back with superior force, but that this policy has now changed and convoys will be defended.
Another report includes the military reaction to the story:
http://www.federalnewsradio.com/?nid...=927827&page=1
It says:
The report also mentions that the escort was from the Va National Guard and that the convoy was carrying the mail.Quote:
The military investigation found that "individuals at the front of the convoy reacted as they were taught by pushing forward and getting out of the kill zone of the ambush," Martin-Hing wrote.
"What is not visible in the video being shown is that they collected the casualties they could reach and laid down suppressive fire with their weapons to help get those vehicles that could move from the front of the convoy out of the kill zone," she wrote.
I think a careful reading of the reports show that they could both be simultaneously true. But if the escort procedures have changed to be immediately protective of convoys, I would welcome that. The unarmed truck drivers were sitting ducks - if the escorts had immediately tried to get them to safety, they all would at least have had a fighting chance.
I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Peasant
As for the rest of your post...it appears you don't completely comprehend what is going on.
CR
Earlier when he took fire and the gun truck didn't return fire he was mad that they didn't. Thanks to ROE US soldiers are only allowed to fire at things they can see so mowing down the village after some popshots were fired is a big no no.
You can hear over the radio the whole time to move out of the kill zone. That's SOP throughout the theatre. The driver should have taken sensitive items (radio) and hoped on the next truck (the one that passed him). Furthermore you can see this guys attitude when truck when says it's down (about 2:53 into it) and he says "keep rollin'" but when it's his ass on the line he changes his mind. When the convoy commander says "go around" he should have realized that the convoy is going to keep rolling and abandon his truck.
You can hear what should be done when truck 3 is downed and the driver asks for a ride too bad no one came back tough.
Also most contracters buy AKs and glocks for convoy duty for things just like this. This guys is a retard for going on convoy unarmed. The only truck drivers that go unarmed are all the Pakistanis and Indians the US hires to drive trucks and from what I've seen they have the sense to abandon their trucks when they should.
As for the escort. Don't knock them because they're national guard, we get killed just as easily as active duty! This convoy sounds like it only had 6 trucks and I have no idea how large the escort is, usually they are way overworked. Most KBR convoys into my area was about 30 trucks to 5 escorts so on a large ambush like this which envelopes trucks 1-5 all at once that escort can't be everywhere at once. Usually they'll try to consolidate at the front so they can clear a path for the still mobile trucks. But on them lie the full guilt for taking the wrong turn, EVERYONE should know the route and as you all saw people get killed when someone doesn't.
Look, man. If that hummer did nothing but speed into the sunset and not return, then yes we have a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Peasant
However, you have apparently watched too many movies and expect to see a couple of soldiers running in and whisking the driver away to safety while surrounded by smoke and dust and under heavy gunfire from all sides all the while doing ninja rolls. The convoy was partially locked down, and insurgents drove a wedge in between the front and the back, which is also a recipe for killing friendlies in the crossfire (what I'm reading now is saying there may have been more military vehicles at the back of the convoy). That vehicle and the soldiers in it were best served getting to a location where they had more cover, from which they could effectively return fire and retake ground.
The fact is, none of us know feck all from just watching this video, only that the driver in question did survive, and he can thank the US military for that.
Had those all been military trucks (or at the least, armed) that video would have gone much, much differently
The way I see it the mission wasn't "drive around a little while with these random civilian verhicles and protect everyone around you, women and children first", it was "protect the convoy". Taking that into account I don't really see what relevance it has that this particular driver is an idiot (I condede that he is a Texan), or that he's being paid more then GI Joe. They miserably failed their mission, wether it was their own fault I don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by MRD
Also, I wasn't aware that nuclear warheads were living beings :juggle2:
The relevance is that the "they left me" mentality is being perpetuated by him, and he fails to see that perhaps a larger plan was at work. Several of those drivers were lost due to small arms fire into their trucks, at least one of the vehicles was flipped on its side due to an IED, and the convoy was surrounded. What I'm trying to get through your heads is that based on the combat situation that I can assess from this video is that had the people in the forward military vehicle gotten out where this mans truck was disabled and engaged the enemy the outcome would have still been the same, plus a couple dead soldiers.
you can understand him having a "they left me" mentaility, he is watching what he thinks remains of his escort drive off into the distance...as an untrained soldier how could he know a larger plan at work, and apparently it wasnt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump
As an escort surely the military have a duty to protect their convoy, the army cant just sacrifice men everytime they get in a difficult situation, it completely defeats the point of an escort.
I also dont see why the truck driver should be armed, they are surely better able to drive with two hands, and rely on the army for protection.
I can almost hear MRD banging his head on the keyboard :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurvy
Fair enough, I did say I wouldn't cast judgement wether the soldiers were at fault or not.Quote:
The relevance is that the "they left me" mentality is being perpetuated by him, and he fails to see that perhaps a larger plan was at work. Several of those drivers were lost due to small arms fire into their trucks, at least one of the vehicles was flipped on its side due to an IED, and the convoy was surrounded. What I'm trying to get through your heads is that based on the combat situation that I can assess from this video is that had the people in the forward military vehicle gotten out where this mans truck was disabled and engaged the enemy the outcome would have still been the same, plus a couple dead soldiers.
Unfortunately the video does not even give close to enough information to assess the situation - it just provides us with the point-of-view of one of the truck drivers.
This might be enough to somewhat understand his subjective view on the situation but it certainly does not give us a means to actually judge what has been done right or wrong.
IIRC it was mentioned at the beginning that there were 17 vehicles in the convoy - 12 trucks and 5 military vehicles.
My understanding is that the truck of our "protagonist" was truck #5 in the convoy, so assuming that the trucks were driving in their assigned order (of course I might be wrong in that assumption) there were still quite some trucks behind our proragonist.
I have to admit that I have no clue about proper convoy procedures, but I would guess that not all 5 military vehicles were driving ahead of a substantial part of the convoy, meaning that there would probably be at least 2 military vehicles still behind truck #5 that might or might not have stayed to protect the trucks that could not get away with the first part of the convoy.
It has already been mentioned that the protagonist obviously got out alive - so unless the attackers completely ignored him and his truck after he was "abandoned" (seems somewhat unlikely) or he miraculously managed to make a daring escape on his own (nothing of that was mentioned), chances are that he had not been abandoned but brought to safety with the help of military (either by the soldiers that protected the convoy or by additional troops that arrived).
I did not spend any time doing further research on this incident - so my statements are exclusively based on the posted video(s) and might be proven wrong by additional information.
The only conclusion I can draw based on the video(s) is simply that being a civilian contractor in Iraq would be a far too dangerous job for my taste and would IMO not be worth the probably very high payment - but I cannot draw any conclusions as to whether the soldiers did a good job protecting the convoy or not.
The driver is not untrained to even think halliburton didn't at least drill some basic safety procedures into those boneheads is a bit out there. The driver who's intelligence is better refered to as "what?" is the problem here. The driver failed to react to his truck stalling and the others screaming on the radio to essentially get the heck out of dodge by hoping into the multiple trucks pulling right past him. I mean heck I heard up to a truck number of 9, plenty of chances. I also doubt that with him being truck 5 and there being 4 other trucks that there wasnt at least one humvee at the rear. The humvee that pulled off was trying to protect the other humvee's by not stopping and giving the enemy what they wanted, a completely halted convoy to slaughter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurvy
As for not being armed, does that include not holding video camera's also? Honestly a G3 siting next to you is probably not going to interfere with you driving a semi, but it sure might keep the crazie's out of the cabin.
They drove a wedge into their midsection of the convoy and promptly tryed to suround it completely, stoping and fighting would mean not only the 2(?) truck drivers die, but all 9 and alot of soldiers.
__________________
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BigTex
"Hilary Clinton is the devil"
~Texas proverb
Someone said the civilian contractors were not allowed to carry weapons. As for jumping out of the truck to try to hitch a lift, if I knew military procedure was to hightail it out of the ambush, I might be inclined to do that. But as a civilian, I would not expect the escort to drive off - I very much doubt Halliburton spelt it out in their training. I would be inclined to think that if I stayed put, in radio contact, one of the five escorts might pull up and get me out. The video gives no evidence that the humvee picking up the driver would have resulted in soldiers dying. The driver survived for 40 minutes in his cab. The humvee soldiers probably would have survived the minute or so it took to pull over and pick him up.
People should remember that while the escort may just have followed standard procedures, according to military spokesmen, those procedures have now changed and now require defending the convoy. I'm not going to criticise the escort, but I do welcome the new procedures.
The really scarey part would be if the escort shared the contempt for civilian contractors that some posters here apparently do.
And you do?Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Which is in itself a classic tactic for enemy units in a convoy formation...any escorts with half a brain and a decent escort force in the first place should have been expecting this and had the means to counter it without the loss of civillian lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump
I agree with you that in all probability the escort as it was souldnt have done much benefit by staying put...Im just surprised that they fell victim to such an old tactic in the first place.
Have you ever been caught in an ambush? I suspect someone doesn't have the knowledge necessary to pass judgement. (And this is direct at more then one poster.) Standard practice for any vehicle caught in an ambush is to move away from the kill zone, find a secure area, assemble a combat force and go back. The video's radio traffic seems to indicate that was what was being attempted.Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot
Ambush is the oldest and most useful tactic in military operations. Simply because if one does not like the odds of the situation - the ambushing force can elect not to fire the ambush.Quote:
I agree with you that in all probability the escort as it was souldnt have done much benefit by staying put...Im just surprised that they fell victim to such an old tactic in the first place.
The escort didn't abandon him, he stopped and by the time he told anyone he was down they were around the corner. You can hear a lot of gun fire in the backround, I'll assume that's a lot of fire from the front or rear of the convoy, probably both. It means the escort was trying to fight the enemy. It's not as if they just hauled balls to the next base. Think about it, you need the path cleared, if they can't secure the front of then the convoy will sit there even longer and more people will die. Sitting in place with no extra support is stupid, it lets the isurgents pick off the gunner from angles he's not facing, then if he's dead the entire convoy essentially loses a guntruck and is even more screwed. There's trucks behind him as well then which are probably trying to secure their part of the convoy, the rear trucks didn't pass him and leave they just followed SOP to try protect their part while the front got cleared.
The guntrucks did exactly what they were supposed to do in that situation and damn it they can't protect everyone. What they should be fried for is taking the wrong turn, everyone should know the route!
And contracters usually were armed. They at least had a pistol on them, maybe KBR changed the rules in the past few months but when I left in Jan contracters were usually toting an Ak47 in their truck and a pistol at their side. Maybe they were never allowed to carry weapons but they certainly did when I was there and with good reason.
Looking at the date this was Sept last year so there should be plenty of guntoting contract drivers, maybe their supervisor was an unreasonable dick.
And here you guys go:
From here http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15046769/page/2/
Quote:
U.S. military officials stress that in the video, Wheeler is describing the experience from his perspective alone, and that it provides an incomplete picture of all that took place.
A military investigation into the attack on the KBR convoy found that the military escorts responded appropriately to the insurgent attack.
"Once the shooting started, the soldiers in the lead Humvees followed established military procedures to move out of the kill zone," concludes the investigation.
According to the report: Once clear of the kill zone, the two Humvees in the lead circled back to set up a "perimeter" and "lay down suppressing fire" against the insurgents. They also arranged for the evacuation of three U.S. soldiers and one KBR employee who had been wounded but managed to drive out of the kill zone. The soldiers also placed an immediate call for a U.S. military Quick Reaction Force and air cover.
The report states that the firefight lasted at least 35 minutes. During that time the soldiers took small-arms fire, rocket-propelled grenades and grenades.
Two U.S. helicopter gunships arrived within 20 minutes after the initial enemy contact. It's not clear whether the helicopters actually fired, but the military investigation indicates their mere presence reduced the amount of enemy fire. The Quick Reaction Force arrived 35 minutes after the first contact.
U.S. military officials say their investigation disputes the claim that the military escorts had abandoned the KBR employees. "They (soldiers) never left." According to the officials, the video does not reveal the Humvees that established perimeters beyond the front and rear of the convoy.
The military officials say the suppressive fire laid down by the soldiers kept the two wounded KBR employees alive.
"If they had been abandoned, they would not have survived," says one official.
The investigation did reveal an error in the convoy route map, and the U.S. military says it was corrected within a week.
Ultimately the problem lies in using Civi's in the first place. The drivers should have been Regs, so should the escort.
Beyond that the first priorety should be to get the convoy out.
Question to those of you who have done this convoy work.
Is close escort practical?
I say this based on a number of discussions of aerial and naval convoys during the world wars. These discussion suggest that having an escort close-by and visible was psychologically comforting for the escortee, but usually was not the best means to suppress/destroy convoy raiders. The bomber pilots wanted the P-47's flying off their wing and staying with them -- which left them pretty useless for destroying Bf-109s.
Hunter-killer groups and free roving "sweeps" seemed to be more practical for the goals of convoy safety, by (when possible) removing the opposition before it was in range to engage. Does this analogy hold true for these land convoys?
Have I been caught in an ambush? Yea- all the time- District line train into london...Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
And are you suggesting that I am the someone who doesnt have the necessary knowledge to pass judgement?
every damn day :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot
It's different on the ground, there aren't really formations such as sea and air formations. It's really just spacing between vehicles and what to do when you get hit. Close escort is needed for urban areas, but once on the open highway or freeway everything opens up and you'll have roving escorts that go up and down the line of vehicle so that no pattern is set. For the closer urban work one truck can't do much so when someone get's hit 2 go to the front 2 to the rear and all extra escorts to where ever someone got hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
For the equivalent of true roving destroyers or fighters that would just be standard patrolling. People are assigned a sector they patrol it several times a day. EOD usually have people traveling up and down the MSRs (supply routes) get the road for IEDs and in my AO there were always a handful of Apaches ready to give support when needed. All this is very effective in deterring most attacks but when someone gets attack as in the video the terrain is going to be very unfriendly for mobility or in the case of IEDs just something you can't really react to in the act of attacking the perpetrators. For the guys firing pop shots there's really nothing that can be done, we can't fire back unless we see who shot at us or a weapon in hand.
I think spmetla pretty much nailed it in #46.
One thing that keeps coming to mind for me is... what the hell was the driver doing operating a video camera? You're a truck driver, not some tourist- focus on doing your job.
During the attack, the drivers reactions are understandable- he was obviously terrified. However, if he's still going around talking to reporters claiming that he was "abandoned" I'd say he's being a bit of a hypocrite as well as dishonest.
I don't see what the big deal was with "abandoning" him. It's not like he was a blonde nubile with big tits. You guys need to get your priorities straight.
From the nature of your comments - I can safely reach that conclusion with absolutely no problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot
Do you know the tactics and procedures for a blocked ambush? How does it differ from the tactics and procedures for an unblocked ambush? How does a combat vehicle convoy respond to an ambush versus that of a Supply truck convoy?
Hang on a minute...My post was a comment on the use of such a tactic as boxing in a convoy to which I thought that in such a hostile enviroment a better escort was (obviously) needed and then went on to add that I was surprised that military organisations are not better prepared to counter such a tactic considering its age.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
To which you replied-
And then quoted me-Quote:
Standard practice for any vehicle caught in an ambush is to move away from the kill zone, find a secure area, assemble a combat force and go back. The video's radio traffic seems to indicate that was what was being attempted.
...in the same post, even though you basically reiterated my point.Quote:
I agree with you that in all probability the escort as it was souldnt have done much benefit by staying put...Im just surprised that they fell victim to such an old tactic in the first place.
So first off you present a piece of information in response to something I wasnt even talking about and then belittle me for it...
It's rather easy to place an ambush. Just watch to see how the convoy moves and spread out into buildings along the path, then open fire (hopefully with an explosive device someplace along the route. There is no way in hell of avoiding it aside from being informed from locals or blind luck. As far as I can tell, the escort did nothing wrong, they were just unlucky in that the enemy opened fire first.
The escort was in all likelihood sufficient for the task at hand - getting the civvies from point A to point B. If the civvies had done the smart thing and run as soon as the shooting had started, there would have been fewer casualties, but instead they froze like rabbits caught in the headlights and got buggered for it.
You can't stop a determined enemy from launching an attack, and these lads are determined.
Arguably the escort is only sufficient if they succeed with 0 casualties, but i'm sure the US army knows what its doing, (-that wasnt sarcastic)Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey_Fox
However i dont think the civilians should be expected to know what to do, i would certainly freeze in that situation, as i suspect the vast majority of civvies would, its the escorts job to make sure they dont...
Your comment here shows just what I was alreadly talking about myself. How do you counter an ambush?Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelot
Your taking an armchair general approach and still don't see it.
Nope - demonstrating that you do not have the knowledge in which to critize the military unit for its actions. The Battle Drill for a convoy ambush is for the convoy to depart the location. Something that you are seemly critizing the military for doing. The Tape does not present any evidence that the military did not follow through on its battle drill to return to the ambush site with overwhelming combat power.Quote:
So first off you present a piece of information in response to something I wasnt even talking about and then belittle me for it...
At Scurvy
Your comment only demonstrates what is wrong with allowing civilian contractors to perform tasks on the battlefield. They do not have the training to perform the necessary battle drills when engaged.Quote:
Arguably the escort is only sufficient if they succeed with 0 casualties, but i'm sure the US army knows what its doing, (-that wasnt sarcastic)
However i dont think the civilians should be expected to know what to do, i would certainly freeze in that situation, as i suspect the vast majority of civvies would, its the escorts job to make sure they dont.
I agree :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
A convoy through hostile territtory is all about ensuring the survival of the majority of the cargo. If this mans leaving a crippled ship to the U-boats or a stalled truck to the insurgents then so be it.
Although it seems that operational protocols now require a "see the convoy through" rather than a "run off for help" action from the escort it is clear that they reacted as per then current instructions in this case. The new instructions no doubt require even more manpower, which is probably part of the original problem.
Where the escort failed utterly was a guides, since it appears they took a wrong turning. This is where they should be, and probably were if true, held to account by their superiors.
Civilian contractors have no place on the ground in a warzone IMO. It just shows a lack of proper planning and political willpower while highlighting a lack of military manpower and equipment.