Printable View
yeah now you mention it I heard something like that too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
And there are more things like that, about the mountain Moses would have climbed to talk to God, there are 3 different possibilities for that one, all down to typo's and translation errors because it went from Hebrew to Latin to Old English to English etc.
that is what i saw on the discovery channel. maybe im confusing 2 stories here but i thought that they also said that the egyptians werent really "swallowed" by the "reed sea" but actually were beaten in combat in the marshy wetlands. Moses, guided by God, defeated the egyptians that were chasing them. Their bodies were swallowed by the "reed sea".
So while Moses and his followers survived, the egyptian prince and his army were lost in the wetlands.
Stig - You forgot aramese. Jesus probably spoke Aramese... there is a theory about atlantis too, that says that many errors are made in while the story was written down/told from person to person.
As for Jesus walking on water...
Here is a video of Criss Angel ("Mindfreak!") walking on water:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-yt...elated&search=
If Criss Angel can walk on water, then obviously Jesus could walk on water... due to his greater magical powers.
It goes without saying.
Of course, we have video of Criss Angel walking on water. Jesus hadn't invented video yet. His apostles had to tell people about him walking on water. Jesus should have invented video sooner.
so... chris is an kinda magician... he uses tricks... not miracles...
amazing footage, at a loss as to how it happened. how did he do that? any suggestions?:dizzy2:
i dont know... but there is definitly an explanation for that... where i'm not so sure about Jesus.
and if jesus did do it i doubt he was so careful when he took to surfing without a board.
Jesus did it on rough water. Chris did it on a pool though he is an amazing magician.Quote:
Originally Posted by VAE VICTUS
Quote:
Originally Posted by VAE VICTUS
This attempt was done by several Christian illusionists and were only able to do this by very VERY slowly walking. Something like a stand in the water and what not. This was also on the Discovery Chanel. It was said that it would possibly take a couple of mactruck loads of equipment to get enough stuff out there to do what he needed to do even if the Bible was exaggerating a good bit.
I am saying this in a very heartfelt way: Jesus was no Chris Angel. He was much better. He didn't need to use "tricks" because he was the real deal IMHO. Just because a single miracle is "debunked" (which it isn't) doesen't necessarilly mean anything.
Also, IIRC Jesus was walking on water during a rather large storm in the sea the size of about Salt Lake City (no source for this, it's just the size it reminds me of).
Interesting thread.
Personally I don't think you can debunk the bible like on "Mythbusters" the TV show as its a mythological cycle. I'm not an academic but comparative mythology has been my bag for the last 35 years so here's my 2 cents worth. Joseph Campbell really started the field and his work is well worth the read.
Firstly, at the risk of upsetting my mum further, all myths are based around historical characters and use heavy symbology to make a social or moral point regarding the consequences of inapropriate action within the context of the society the myth emanates from.
"The Jesus Myteries" by Freke & Gandy is an exellent academic work outlining the Classical Mystery cults and how the stories atributed to Jeshua ben Jusef (ben Pantera) follow the standard mystery formulae of the classical era.
I don't really think that wether you believe JC walked on water or not is that important, it's the meaning behind the message that counts, and how you live out your life in relation to others that is the real issue surounding "Jesus" and "his teachings".
The old testament is a bit of a deferent kettle of fish. The flood, etc: are standard rehashes of the oldest Semetic myths.
Were it gets interesting is around the 8th century BCE. There is, as of yet and despite the best efforts of Isreali archeoligists, no evidence for human occupation of Jerusalem or its surrounding environs before this time. During the Assyrian push towards Egypt they sort of left Jerusalem, probably because it was a new backwater city, and the surrounding 20km or so independant for a few decades. It has been put forward that real Judaism, its schism from the Sarmaratan norm, began at this time as a zenephobic reaction and as means of consolitating the power of the cities rulers with the introduction of a draconian law code to keep the city states' independance. The books of Moses and Joshua may be nothing more than a period work of propaganda to legitamise the authority of the rulers of Jerusalem by way of "God" and the old imperial power, :egypt: Egypt, as opposed to the surounding beligerant upstart Assyria.
A bit like if George Bush or John Howard was the chief rabbi.
This would go a long way to explaining the contradictions between the books of Joshua and Judges.
There's a new documentary on Hystory Channel made by James Cameron. Its title is "Exodus Decoded".
If you have time, watch it as it has comes up with new evidences and a new perspective.
I don't know whether to belive it or not but it is surely breathtaking.
damn... its not on in holland
Slartibartfast: First of all, the movie and the books are awesome :D
2nd... The title is just an eyecatcher, i never intended or though that i could unravel the myths of the bible like on the tv show, if ever.
Thanks they help pay the bills when there's a decline in the demand for Fiords and the Magrathean Planetary Consortium resorts to temperary layoffs. Please feel free to check out the original BBC Radio show available on cassette, and possibly now on CD, as I have to pay my Intergalactic Architectural licencing fee next month.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
That was why I found it such a good read, cause in the end it all boiled down to faith, and a myriad of the exploration of and the rationalization of faith, which to me is so absolutely facinating and ultimately human.Quote:
2nd The title is just an eyecatcher, i never intended or though that i could unravel the myths of the bible like on the tv show, if ever.
Make a great show though wouldn't it...next week Bhudha and the three temptresses under the tree can it be resisted, whilst the support team try to marry Carey to the "Buffolo King" so they can eat the herd.
Thank too to all the Dutch for letting us borrow Gus Hiddink, and the world cup warm up match, go PSV.
Flood:
Black Sea region: Indo-European Heimat - major strands separated out circa 5500BC
Black Sea flooded (Bosphorus straits opened up into the Med): circa 5500BC
Flood myth: ubiquitous in Indo-European mythologies...
not too difficult to join the dots.
Walking on water: I didn't see it, no one alive did, the only evidence we have is a book written at least seventy years after the event by someone with a vested interested in making JC look divine. As Campbell et al have pointed out, the Gospels and the Old Testament replay major strands of the erstwhile mid-eastern mystery traditions, rehash a few Egyptian themes (the "Slain God" formula), and borrow heavily from Babylonian / Assyrian traditions.
Red Sea = Reed Sea -- as Pannonian says. We can't say errors don't occur, they do : as witnessed by the edition of the KJ bible which was published with the commandment "Thou shalt commit adultery" (the most popular edition ever, I believe :clown: )
Moses: well, who in the ancient middle east wasn't a foundling in a basket? Another borrowing from earlier tradition.
Finally, a real myth:
:thumbsdown: I've been to Borth - it may have interesting preserved trees, and even interesting folklore, possibly even an interesting history. But it is not an interesting place :laugh4:Quote:
... a seaside village called Borth. An interesting place.
NO PSV, AJAX ROX!!! but i totally agree with the rest of your postQuote:
Originally Posted by Slartibardfast
Just had a thought about the "Biblical Flood" and it might be possible that the historical event it was based around occured alot earlier than we give it credit for.
The Wurundjeri, and other Koori peoples from around the Victorian coastline of Australia all have oral traditionals accounting for the cause of the inundation of Bass Stait at the end off the last Ice Age. Sea levels rose some 50 meters in 10 years. The run off from retreating glaciers around the world would of been massive. At that time the whole Fertile Cresent could of been aflood due to run off from the glaciers of the Caucaus and Zagros Mountains.
Some 30,000 years of oral tradition before the first written Sumerian account of "The Great Flood" perhaps?
Babylonian and Ninevite creation stories often include some form of great flood. If I can dig out my NIV study Bible and some of my Old Testament background books I'll provide some more info.
I think the whole Flood story has some ancient Babylonian origins. Basically, all the miracles and supernatural events described in the Bible have more ancient origins. They are not exclusive to the Bible or anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
i know but the bible clustered them all together...
The Plagues cast down by god onto Egypt:
rivers and other water sources turned to blood
well red sands from ethiopia and other mid african areas were drawn into the nile, creating a blood colored river
reptiles (commonly believed to be frogs)
easy, as the river filled up with the red dirt, the insects and fish started to die. the insects moved out, not giving the frogs a source of food, so they moved out.
lice
same as above (without the frogs)
'Arov', meaning either flies, wild animals or beetles
this was a plague that destroyed livestock. another easy one to explain, the insects moved out the of the nile, carrying disease that affected livestock.
Pestilence
see above
Boils
insects
Storm (fiery hail)
my best guess would be volcanos
Locusts
same as frogs and lice and Arov
Darkness
now this has two possibilities.
1. volcanos (fiery hail) ash blocked the sun
2. the locusts came in huge crowds and swarms blocking out the sun
Death of Firstborn
now this one is unexplainable. my best guess is disease from cattle and insects. the hebrew first born were protected because they moved out of the area.
as for the walking on water, i doubt judea snowed
i just read an interesting piece about this in the yesterdays newspaper... ill post it as soon as possible
About Jesus walking on water... I've always had a sneaking suspicion it had something to do with the salt content in the Dead Sea. Maybe he just floated in the water, and the story got magnified by many people telling it over and over. I don't know the story that well so I can't really pass jugement... I'm a Jew