Oh ell. I was never eally good at cavalry any ways. Bring on the Ottoman Infantry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
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Oh ell. I was never eally good at cavalry any ways. Bring on the Ottoman Infantry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
But probably historical? The Europeans had the meat grinding heavy infantry, not the Moslems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
Note that curiously, the Turks do get the armoured Saracen spearmen, a unit I always found rather ahistorical in MTW (when it was confined to Egypt, no?).
The lack of MAA-type infantry will probably hurt the Turks in the earlier parts of the game most. The JHI was an anti-infantry monster in the late game MTW. I suspect it will be again.
Surely. It will be interesting to see how they stack up against knights.Quote:
Cavalry looks medium. Will mace armed Qapukul be armour piercing?
I think it probably would have been a better idea to make Saracen Infantry a regional unit (available in Syria, Arabia of course, the Levant, etc) available to muslims only. In fact I don't recall any muslim regional units except the Armenian Heavy Cavalry, and that one didn't even make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
I didn't see it as a real weakness in MTW, you just had to use a different playing style. Of course as a MTW player you know how deadly the Ghazi/Saracen combo is.Quote:
The lack of MAA-type infantry will probably hurt the Turks in the earlier parts of the game most. The JHI was an anti-infantry monster in the late game MTW. I suspect it will be again.
Indeed, but while the Turks have gained the Saracens (they did not have that in MTW did they?), they seem to have lost the Ghazis[1].Quote:
Originally Posted by Kralizec
On balance, this, change may make the faction play more historically. The Saracen spears may be a little too well armoured for historical Turkish line infantry, but this will compensate for the apparent lack of stacks and other field fortifications that the Turks used as the centre of their battlefield defenses.
[1]Unless the Ghazis reappear as some kind of special jihad unit, like the MTW crusades' fanatics and Order foot. Rather a sweet idea, now I think about it - the Ghazis were supposed to be religious fanatics or at least freebooting types.
Turks had Saracens, the Almohads didn't. Always thought that was odd, considering that the Almohad people was partially Arab. But it made playing an Elmo battle all the more interesting :2thumbsup:
The Moors pretty much only ever had Arabs in the top brass when they crossed the Gibraltar, and since then the leadership got shuffled anew about every century or so. Mind you, some of the rulers were reputedly so fond of fair concubines bought from the north their sons had to dye their hair so as to not look too "Frank" for the sensibilities of their subjects...
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the Muslims could also recognize the considerable practical value of lineholder spearmen in decent armour. Everyone else did, and they weren't any dumber. The dearth of iron deposits in most of Middle East might be a minor problem but then again you can get pretty far with just applied leather technology (some of the techniques the Egyptians invented for the job were real alchemy), and that certainly would not be an issue for the Moors in any case.
It's not like there's some special magic to having your heavy infantry do their thing covered in iron and leather, you know.
True enough. It's just I have not come across a reference to Saracen heavy or even Turkish armoured heavy infantry "doing their thing". Both seem to have relied on their cavalry, with infantry being regarded as being of lower quality. For example, skimming through "Armies of the Middle Ages", there is only one illustration of an armoured Muslim infantryman (probably a janissary officer), whereas there are scores of European equivalents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
I found the Saracen infantry particularly jarring in the MTW early period, because it meant that the Egyptians (and apparently Turks) could have serried ranks of mailed spearmen while the Catholics could not (Chivalric sergeants came in the High period).
Middle Eastern armies tended to rely on their cavalry for the main in open-field battles - natural enough given the open spaces common to the region. Infantry isn't nearly as good at maneuver, so it naturally got the lineholder duties.
Which doesn't mean they couldn't be pretty well equipped. I'm not sure of the exact recruitement methods Muslim infantry was typically raised through (AFAIK it varied enormously by time and place), but I'm willing to bet there were enough professionals and better-off urban militiamen involved for many of them to be quite well armed - the price of a decent warhorse could usually get you the whole rest of the panoply in most places after all, and people also tend to be fond of protecting their corporeal selves if they can afford it.
For what it's worth, the Osprey books (which usually aren't too badly off) mention armoured Muslim infantry over a very long period including the MTW one so it was likely around. Keep also in mind that wearing various articles of clothing (robes, surcoats, tunics, turbans) over armour and helmet was by all accounts a common (and sensible, as metal exposed to direct powerful sunlight gets really hot really fast; the Crusaders copied it right fast) practice and some mail was outright made to appear as thick clothing to begin with (khazagand, called jazerant in Europe) which may skew perceptions.
~:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
It appears the gameplay they intend is for 10K without upgrades as one cant get all elite units at 10K. If morale for lower quality units is good enough, and missile units are not too costly like in MTW, then it might have good balance.
If they are not careful its just gonna be like 5K gameplay in MTW and within days everyone is playing at 15K+ to get the best units and/or upgrades to get good enough morale.
oh and Im sure there will be woods for smurfs to hide in :laugh4:
CBR
Okay, I just watched the video, and
1. Love the music! That was one thing I hated about MTW - the music was totally awesome but each track would only play once and they weren't that long.
2. Looks like Naffatun have a pretty decent throw distance now, so they won't be nearly as useless. It's about like the difference between MTW javelin guys and RTW javelin guys.
3. The elephants are puzzling - they are show like they are Turk units in the video, and IGN says they're a hallmark of the Turks, but they don't show up in the preview or the custom battle screen. Maybe they're not listed because they are only available in certain provinces that the Turks start with?
...I don't think there were elephants living in Anatolia, the central and western Iranian plateau and Mesopotamia withing recorded history...
The closest would be in India, I think. African savannah eles are apparently no good - too vicious and cannot be tamed (plus they don't live anywhere near what can be assumed to be Turkish starting provinces either).
In classical times there were elephants in Syria. Lions, Wolves, and bears too. But the Romans games exterminated them all. The african forrest elephants above the Sahara too. They were gone even before BI time frame. Sassanid elephants came from India after all. So would medieval elephant units. It probably means that the Mesopotamian province(s) will have the elephant resource this time.
Elephants?I the turks have elephants, thats enough for me. Watch out world, my Turks are coming (evil maniacal laugh).
I can not make any detailed statement on the unit roster but the video, it's music and some campaign map pictures didn't look turkish at all! They had much more an arabic feeling. The general in one of the in-game pictures has an arabic name (Jalal) and since the fact that it's a very early stage of game and the turks came from the east recently he should have a different name IMHO. And the mask on his face is a mistery to me as well.
Other than that, it's all okay to me! Good Job!
If you don't like cavalry, chances are you'll like that cavalry! It's (probably) not designed to charge ennemy infantry (no spear), but to counter ennemy heavy cavalry with armour piercing.Quote:
Originally Posted by scourgeofrome
Louis,
Saracen spearmen got spears, so they are probably more of anticavalry infantry and chances are that MAA will cream them.Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
JHI was probably an anti infantry monster in late SP game, because of the natural unbalance in SP campaign. In MP, the best way to lose money as a turk was to buy JHI and throw those at ennemy MAA: at equal florin, JHI will lose. JHI only good role is anticavalry, that's why they got a halberd...
Turk got no real sword yelding unit, so I guess hybrid archer will have to do that job!
Louis,
Saracen spearmen got spears, so they are probably more of anticavalry infantry and chances are that MAA will cream them.Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
JHI was probably an anti infantry monster in late SP game, because of the natural unbalance in SP campaign. In MP, the best way to lose money as a turk was to buy JHI and throw those at ennemy MAA: at equal florin, JHI will lose. JHI only good role is anticavalry, that's why they got a halberd...
Turk got no real sword yelding unit, so I guess hybrid archer will have to do that job!
Louis,
I don't buy the "balance for 10k with no upgrade and not all elite". Precisely for the reason you put forward in the next paragraph. MP players will play with whatever amount of money is necessary for units not to rout in seconds. If that means all elite, then we'll see all elite army and 20K will be the norm.Quote:
Originally Posted by CBR
Or whatever is needed depending on what the unit file is.
Time will tell.
Louis,
The blog says that games are optimized at 10k, with armies getting 1/3 elite, 1/3 medium and 1/3 crap units.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
The main point is: those non elite units must get enough morale to not to rout immediately. If the only way to avoid instant routs is getting armies with all elite units, then 10k won't be used as standard and therefore it will break the original balance. That's why developers must be careful.
We still don't know morale levels of low quality units, so let's be patient and wait.
i agree with you but maybe we can mod the names and use turkic names in the early times and turco arabic names for the later time periods.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivoignob
The turkish armies were based on infantry.
According to who?? :inquisitive: The Turks were reknowned for their cavalry-based armies throughout the Early and High periods of the Middle Ages. It wasn't until the development of the Janissary corps that infantry began to be featured prominantly in the Sultan's armies, and that didn't happen until the mid-14th century or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)
1320 is the year I've heard tossed around in regards to the founding of the Janissaries.
ivoignob makes some gooood statements indeed. Yes medieval ages meant Ottomans more than any other Turkish state but even they were never that much Arabic. Islam 's language is Arabic, so it is inevitable for a Muslim society to get affected by Arabic language over time, but I am sure that CA will create a balance clearly yielding "a Turkish faction affected from Arabic culture by means of Islam". For instance, even in the latter times of Ottomans, there were no names starting with "Al-" prefix as they have in Arabic. In MTW there were such names.
Music? Well as long as Mr. Van Dyck is on the job, I have no complaints at all. Hearing "Mehter" would drive you berserk during a battle but I really admire his atmospheric contribution to TW series, I know anyhow it will be good. :2thumbsup:
Looks good. It's interesting to see a more hybrid cavalry/infantry based army.
Like RTW, it looks like the less familiar nations to popular culture will be a lot better.
When they took Byzantium an defeated the european armies at Nicea or Niece (something like this)they had an army based on infantry.
After looking at this preview, Im looking forward for the focus on the Mongols and the Moors...indeed.
Mongols will be playable right?
As for the Moors, ah...AUM...
One of the screenshots I saw from them, are spearmen or muribitin spearmen (I think) marching from some town with a beautiful scenic sunset( or was it sunrise). It was very picturesque. ~:cool:
Iconium is capital of Turks with only two buildings?!:dizzy2: I can't believe...
Halberd Militia for Turks!
Well they did just move in right? :inquisitive: :dizzy2: :help:
Wasn't it? Prisoners?Quote:
Janissary Heavy Infantry
Initially formed in the mid 14th century and consisting of captured Christians who were amongst the Sultan's 1/5 of prisoners captured in battle, and who have converted to Islam. These elite heavy infantry are armed with a halberd and armoured in mail. They are expected to lead the infantry charge into battle with courage and honour.
And then:
Do I see contradiction - "are made up of prisoners of war" and "Drafted while young"?:wall:Quote:
Janissary Archers
Janissaries, 'Yeni ceri' , meaning new soldier in Greek are made up of prisoners of war and non Muslims. Drafted while young, these soldiers form a large part of the Turkish army and pledge loyalty to the Sultan. Janissary are expert archers capable of showering the enemy with arrows, weakening and breaking formations before the infantry move in.
Who cares about history any more?!:laugh4: