Am I the only one finding the battles boooooooring?

This is one of the things that is really killing the game for me at the moment. The "realism" argument for the massive spacing is, to put it politely, a load of codswallop. Maybe the proponents of this theory arn't thinking of the same thing as I am, but when a perfectly formed unit charges into the enemy (if you can call it charging, I too am getting "lets stroll into the enemy line" syndrome with my units, and that is single-click attacking from quite a large distance away) and then stops mere feet away to space themselves about four to five meters apart so they can by butchered, I call that a bug. This happens all the time in sieges and less so in field battles. So massive street battles turn into complete fracas' as the attacking units are pushed together and the dreaded spacing takes over. So while the defending unit has a nice tight-knit group of spears defending, all of a sudden my units of Dismounted Knights gather up speed for a fearsome attack, and then they all stop, about 5-10 walk into combat and the rest all stand back making sure no-one invades their space. So now you have maybe 5 or more knights fighting a full unit of spearmen. Lovely.
I actually have taken to telling my units to march beyond the unit they are fighting to so that they walk into combat. And this doesn't always work as the foremost men try to push through the defenders and get hacked to pieces. This seriously needs to be addressed.

Another thing that's annoying me considerably at the moment is unit movement on walls. Tonight, for example, I deployed my archers on a segment of wall that looked likely to be attacked by a ladder. But the sneaky AI runs the ladder to another section of wall on the other side of the gatehouse when the battle begins. Fair enough, so I click on my unit a send them running to defend that part of the wall instead. Now, for whatever reason the unit breaks into a long chain of running men (obviously), BUT as soon as about 35% to 50% of the unit reach the target every man in the unit stops where he is. And even if you double click on the target position again, they'll run a little bit until the main chunk of the unit reforms itself onto the slightly-altered target and then stop again. And then, since maybe 50% of of the unit is strung out along a few lengths of curtain wal in groups of ones and twos they refuse to fire upon the incoming enemies. This isn't a usualy problem, but one of a myriad of 'quirks' that I'm experiencing with walls in sieges. On another occasion, because some of archers were stuck at the bottom of ladders (litteraly 4-5), while the rest was formed on the walls, the entire unit refused to open fire.

And one of my pets hates is that if your siege towers are interrupted in any way while they're being set against the walls they are rendered useless. This happened me at Caernarvon when the AI ran a unit out of the gates to intercept the men pushing my siege tower. They charged just when the tower was at the wall but the men had not yet climbed it. Obviously I ordered my men to engage the enemy that had attacked them before climbing the tower, but after they had dealt with them they refused to climb the tower (I tried telling them to attack units atop the walls, clicking to move them to the top of walls, telling them to 'pick up' the tower, but nothing worked). Another glitch is when you order more than one unit up a tower by telling two units to attack an enemy on top of the wall. They'll climb it alright, but if the enemy is destroyed before all the men have climbed the tower the units can 'freeze'; it becomes unresponsive (presumably because they target of their attack command no longer exists, meaning the remaining men at the foot of the tower or in the tower stop moving and the entire unit becomes locked up).
Since these problems are situationally-specific, they only occur at certain times and less so now since I have guessed most of the triggers and avoid causing them where possible, but it puts severe restrictions on how you use your units if you have to think "Oh, I don't want to tell them to do that just yet or they might lock up on me, I'll wait till the tower is completely clear".

And all of this before I even get to how cavalry chase down routing units! It's horrendous. Instead of them chasing off to slay the cowards on a madcap gallop (which was the general form of pursuing fleeing enemies at the time, rather than forming up and using the gradual, perfect charge), they seem to go everywhere BUT into the enemy. Instead they splay off in all directions, or run back and reform and then charge (by which time they have no chance of catching up before the enemy flees over a boundary), run parallel to the unit they're supposed to be butchering, or some other wonderfully abstract form of stupidity a lab full of chimps would be hard pressed to outdo. Some of these are bugs left over from RTW too, which makes it doubly puzzling as to how they managed to survive years of developing the same basic code.

...

Anyway, you'll have to excuse my rant. It probably comes across like I hate this game, but it's the complete opposite. I think the battles have the potential to be fantastic except there are certain kinks with the way units move and function. The campaign is superior in every way to Rome, except for a few things (assasins slightly weak, uber-powerful inquisitors spamming everywhere, the "factions relations: Abysmal" quirk whereby after getting into a war it becomes nearly impossible to get the AI to ceasefire even under the most generous ortheatening circumstances), but after playing for a few days the various glitches can really begin to destroy the experience. I understand most of the campaign bugs and the passive AI will be fixed in the first patch, but the lack of mention of this unit spacing bug has me slightly puzzled. M2:TW is, in my experience, the best Total War game to date. Yet some of the gameplay makes the game awkward and ponderous where it should be fluid and responsive.

P.S. And to think I registered here especially to make this post :sweatdrop:
Hello everyone :2thumbsup:

I'll have to agree about the movement of units on walls, but you have to admit.... Its been improved a lot from RTW. It still is somewhat lacking, however.

Don't get me wrong, i think this game is awesome, one f the best i've ever played, but there are a few things that, if changed, could make for a much more enjoyable playing experience.
In my opinion, the main factor is the almost complete disregard of armor. Is it just me, or is armor worn to deflect enemy blows? The one hit KO's by peasants at fully armored knights seems a bit off to me. Maybe this was aceptable in RTW, where all the units were a lot less armored.
I think MTW was pretty good in this respect, where units would swing repeatedly at other units, a lot of their blows glancing off their opponents armour. And even without armour, i think it would take more than one shot to drop an opponent.
Maybe i'm wrong, but i'm just simply annoyed at seeing units standing about, taking their time, carefully deliberating before attacking, and when they attack, their attacks seem to be perfectly aimed as to kill their oponent (usually) in one shot.

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Originally Posted by Akka

Not only that, but the charges are much less powerful too, barely pushing men one step or two. I don't think that a cavalry charge should be absorbed so easily, and I don't think it's realistic for a horseman to have so little kinetic energy...

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This has been driving me nuts. It drove me nuts in Rome as well. We've gone from an era when Infantry was dominant and Heavy Cav was an after thought to an era where Heavy Cav is everything and Infantry is a supporting unit, and it seems the developers got each backwards. Apparently stirrups don't count for much to this game.

It's not the *moving* of the units of walls that gets me, it's the *placement* of them on walls. RTW let you make nice neat rows, but M2 throws your guys into these disorganized, hideous, uneven rows of men that leave huge gaps in the formation. Putting units on walls feels like playing a game of Tetris, as I try to get all the neat little purple dots to line up correctly.

Charges seem to work fine for me. I saw a unit of peasants (not the best comparison I admit) vanish in the dust of a General's charge. Strill awesome I say. My biggest compaint right now must be city and castle assaults. Castle assaults are bugged without a doubt. The AI simply does not know how to attack the second and third walls without YOU having to make them. Today I say the damndest thing: The AI destroyed my first wall with 3 units of catapults. They just sat there till the end and came out to take the next set only when I was already reclaiming the first gate. Does it do that on Hard or Very Hard?

I think charges are plenty powerful--I've done custom battles with knights (take your pick) against highland rabble on grassy plains and all but 2 of the rabble destroyed in the charge--the problem is that charges are prohibitively difficult to get right. I think it makes sense that orderly charges do the most damage, but it's just silly when the whole unit pulls up in the face of the enemy because they aren't in immaculate line.

Despite some minor glitches I conclude that battles are much much more rewarding than RTW. Much of the moaning is a matter of taste.

AI shows some intelligence now, despite some minor glitches which have been in all Totalwar games, STW, MTW and RTW. It reminds a lot more of MTW and even the sheer frantic fun chaos of STW battles

AI pins down flanks, attacks with infantry as the first wave, backed by cav, uses it's shooters at the same time. Not always, but just as much as in MTW or STW.

AI attacks from behind, uses a second line of infantry to protect it's rear, unlike RTW where all you had to do was a wall of spears against your enemy and get behind it with cav, voila battle was over.

Siege battles are better and for the first time of all releases I like them. In STW, MTW and RTW I found them tedious boring.

AI uses arty with maximum effect and can be devastating. Made me loose some battles.

AI chooses better units, only if it is under economical pressure it starts to use cheaper units.

Yes there are some bugs, but I do hope one remembers the 1.5 hour battles of MTW where with a full stack army your were able to beat AI armies ten times as big as yours with an endless stream of reinforcements.
STW had some weird things too.

The stunning graphics do add an extra layer to the gameplay, the slow motion charges of which people complain are only if you follow a unit charging with the camera zoomed in. And I must say it looks extremely good, unlike RTW where you had unrealistic midgets on steroids running around the battlefield, their leggs moving as fast as Roadrunner. Whats the point of having nice graphics if you have to pause the game to have a look.

Maps are bigger and of more tactical depth, graphics here are again much better and do add to the game experience.

Weather has improved, some effects are stunning and finally the fogg which was so beautifull in Shoggy is back. Would like to see more weather influence though, heavy units sticking in mud, etc.

Controls are somewhat better, pace of battles are slower, something the vast majority of players wished for.

Would like to see more impact of fatigue on VH.

I do think some complaints and demands are rather unrealistic and will be a step back towards RTW. If you have been playing STW, MTW and RTW don't expect wonders from the AI. Nothing can replace the human brain.

MTW2 is an outstanding game, way beyond RTW which indeed was a bad game. Without the passive AI bug I would have lost many more battles.
Much more as in MTW or RTW anyway.

Want to have fun battles: play on VH, use minmal UI, switch of the radar, arrow markers and unit info caps, which leaves you much more guessing about what's going on.

Take a hilly map, switch on dense fog or heavy rain, take ten cav units, 50% horse archers and make sure the AI has a solid metal box of 15 units and horse archers. Havent had so much fun since Shoggy.

1. In RTW the kill rate was too fast and the unit which charged was usually the winner after 2 secs. I almost never dound my self watching the moral of a fighting unit.

In M2TW I must constantly keep an eye on the moral of fighting units and reinforce those that are wavering or shaken.

2. In RTW I had a home rule. Never pause the game to give the AI a brake.

In M2tw Iam many times forced to pause in many crucial moments.

3. In both RTW and M2TW I was disappointed when I was attacked. The disappointment source in RTW was that I was forced to play another battle knowing that I was just win while in M2TW I am frustrated that the computer keeps pressure on me.

4. The charge thing is true. In order to make a good charge you must move close your cavalry, organize it and then charge. If you just double click the enemy unit when the cav unit is 400 m away then the knights will just skirmish. But if you pay attention to your knights and organize them 50-60 meters before charging then the reward is a devastating sweep. It is realistic and when it is done right a knight unit can even take down almost entire units in 2-3 secs.

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Originally Posted by Nakraal

4. The charge thing is true. In order to make a good charge you must move close your cavalry, organize it and then charge. If you just double click the enemy unit when the cav unit is 400 m away then the knights will just skirmish. But if you pay attention to your knights and organize them 50-60 meters before charging then the reward is a devastating sweep. It is realistic and when it is done right a knight unit can even take down almost entire units in 2-3 secs.

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That you have to properly organize your knights to make a really devastating charge doesn't bother me in the slightest.

That your knights suddendly lose all weight and all ability to push off the way lone infantrymen because they aren't in proper formation, this I have a problem.
I often see men and horses skidding on the same place because blocked by a peasant, and that's just not right.

Even disorganised, several horsemen arriving at full speed should have a kinetic effect and have an impact.
It doesn't have to be devastating, but it should have an effect.

Yes, I do understand that you must set up knights well before charging. I have been doing this and I will admit that when they do get the charge right the effect is devastating. However, it is so infinetly difficult to get the exact setup it becomes incredibly frustrating trying to organise a charge. Even when you think "Yes, they're lined up well and all ready in formation with," you hit the charge button and sit back expecting to be amazed, only to be dissapointed when some knights get held up by arrow fire, "clipping" another unit, lone stragglers from disarraryed formations or any other a hundred tiny little things and the entire thing turns into a shambles. Sometimes it turns into a shambles without any visible reason.

Besides the knights, I'd just like to ensure this stay on-topic; the unit spacing in combat drastically needs to be fixed. If you don't believe it does, then just look at the screenshots posted earlier in this thread. It's a sight that I'm getting too used to.

As stated and referred to earlier, problem shown in screenshots are easily solved during battle. I do not understand that the whole community was whining that RTW was too easy, now that MTW2 is slightly more difficult, they yet again they start whining that it is too difficult. The MORE I play MTW2, the LESS problem I have with unit spacing. It is a matter of control basically. It is not a bug.

Even the cav charge using their spears you get with double clicking, depending on speed, distance, movement of enemy and wehter your cav comes out of melee.
I cannot be the only one having that experience. Yup, more factors to consider, which makes it thank god more difficult to win battles.

I'm not "whining" because M2:TW is more difficult than R:TW. Quite the contrary, I am one of the TW-unique group of gamers that sighs with pleasure when they see AI-controlled armies completely dominate me with out-manouvering and effective attacks.

But okay, taking a step back maybe the problem iswith the way I'm controlling my units. I have tried looking through threads and applying the notes on how units charge in the new game but I'm still getting the spacing problem. Care to tell/show me how you control your units to avoid this problem?

Much appreciated,
Wiz

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Originally Posted by Mordred

As stated and referred to earlier, problem shown in screenshots are easily solved during battle. I do not understand that the whole community was whining that RTW was too easy, now that MTW2 is slightly more difficult, they yet again they start whining that it is too difficult. The MORE I play MTW2, the LESS problem I have with unit spacing. It is a matter of control basically. It is not a bug.

Even the cav charge using their spears you get with double clicking, depending on speed, distance, movement of enemy and wehter your cav comes out of melee.
I cannot be the only one having that experience. Yup, more factors to consider, which makes it thank god more difficult to win battles.

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I don't recall anyone talking about difficulty.
Maybe you would like to actually read a thread before patronizing, thank you.

And the problem of "handful of dueling" is EVER present.
Even when all the men are cluttered on top of others, just zoom in and notice that there is the majority of them doing nothing, and only a tiny minority actually fighting.

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Originally Posted by Akka

Well, actually...

I just tested that a few minutes ago, and it seems that, though the two units are in fact piling one on another... their soldiers simply don't fight !
There is the same number of "duelists" as when you tell them to attack in a regular fashion, who fight, and all the other just stand here doing nothing, while being on top of the ennemy 0_o

It's really disheartening -_-

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I never saw that, to be honest I never zoom in on battles anyway. But if what you say is true it is really stupid. I did seem to get better results with my method instead of simply attacking though.