How to get a good Charge, V2.0.

great post, but I have a couple of unanswered questions:

1 - what is the most optimal formation to charge in? is for instance wedge even worth it? I seem to always lose a lot of knights when charging in a wedge, but then again, I didn't know how to charge well before reading this post
2 - how many lines per formation is it most beneficial to have? I usually put my heavy cavalry in two line formation, but is is best to have them in 4-5 lines forming a square instead?

oh also, does charging from a slight angle improve or deteriorate the result? what I mean is as opposed to charging straight into the spear wall (head on), what if I charge them from a 20-30 degree angle? sort of hitting the corner of their formation and not really their pointing spears? is it considered as flanking or does this end up causing more casualties because your knights have to move through a wider area?

ok hope somebody knows the answeres to these questions


thanks

Yes, very well done, extremely helpful. I agree with you that MTW 2 does focus alot more on tactics than RTW, I like it better than Rome where the focus was mainly on the make up of armies and not so much tactics. I also vote that this be stickied.

This is a great post. Stick it!

I have also a Q: What are the values of charge radii for different units?

I would imagine they depend on unit type and speed. But for example for a cav. I once had a Mailed Knigts unit trotting 300 m (give or take), and then masacring spearmen - most likely a succesful charge.

Any ideas on actual values?

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

The old cavalry mechanic (MTW/VI v2.01) was not inferior to this new system. A double click charge from outside the charge distance causes your unit to spread out more which lessens the impact of the charge. If you charge from within the 30 meter charge distance, the charge is less effective because the unit doesn't get up to full speed. If you order a charge in a new direction, the unit forms up before charging. Heavy cav is less mobile than light cav.

The old system works quite well, and, increasing the micromanagement doesn't represent an improvement. Even with the better control in the old system, it's still not easy to maintain full control over multiple units of cav in multiplayer, and positioning the units is important so that they can arrive at the places where needed in time.

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Having read Puzz3D's explanation of the old style system then I am inclined to regard this as being ideal. It does not take away from the original post because in the end we all need to understand how it works...no matter if we agree with it or not.

I have been playing with the charges alot. I made an all knight force just to see how it works.

For 1, the units being charged cant move 1 iota or else the knights become dumb and going from a charge to a stall.

The part in the guide where if you have a line formation and click attack on the center unit your sides will pick smart targets, well thats not true as my units all angled toward the middle part. Sorry wasnt really a charge issue.

When do units lose their lances? Does time renew them? It seems sometimes I get 1 charge and after that the lances are gone. Sometimes it seems like I get more.

Does unit experience make charging any better? Even when they charge perfectly I still get some that just sit there.

Forget charging in a city, even with a good stretch of land between me and the enemy my units cant seem to get 1 charge to work, radius or not.

Sorry if doesnt make sense am tired and the charges are started to get to me, they look so awesome when they work but you almost need the enemy to sit there and wait for them to get them to be effective.

I wondered tho if its my green units that might be the cause too.

I have read the posts here, and I hear what you're saying.

But I still think the cavalry in R2TW stinks, and have to be somehow bugged.

I play Spain on VH/VH, and have still never managed to get a successfull heavy cav charge with lances down. I try to single click from a good distance, like it has been said in this thread. But it always ends up with my cavalry walking calmly over to their enemy engaging them with theire swords. So I usually get frustrated and end up double clicking, which works a little better. Then my cavalry at least runs up to the enemy and pushes them out of formation. But the casuality-effect is still not good. The reason is probably that they don't use their lances.

I think the cavalry is generally too weak. For example, I engaged a unit of Feudal Knights with two chevrons and lead by a 5-star general, head-up against a unit of rebel peasants. I off course killed them all, but ended up loosing 15/40 knights.

Actually I think Spain looses must of their advantages with early good cavalry when they perform so bad. Frustrating..

#1 Is there something I can do with this?
#2 What's up with this patch we have been promised??

This thread is a great work and very good for the communauty.

But I can't help myself to think : if such a large post is needed to understand how to make a cavalry charge, and if so many people have trouble with it, isn't it, in the end, a proof that the interface/mechanics of the game have a serious problem ?

This is an excellent post, and much deserving of a sticky.

That said, there are still three problems to which we as a community have not yet come up with a solution:

1. Cavalry, when charging, dropping lances in favour of swords for no obvious reason. I see this most often when the cavalry are charging a moving target such as skirmishing archers or crossbowmen, but it also occurs sometimes when they are charging a unit engaged in combat.

2. Lances not renewing after an attempted charge - some or all of one's cavalry just sit there with their swords. Have they broken their lances? If so this should be made explicit. Uncertainty does no-one any good.

3. Charges are supposed to put on speed at a certain point. This does not always happen, with the result that cavalry simply walk into a fight. I see this happen most frequently in cities but, on occasion, also see this behaviour in the open.

We need more transparency about charge mechanics, or at least some kind of official word on what is bugged, what is working as planned, and what steps we can take to get a coconut every time with our charges.

Charges are just plain broken/badly bugged, sorry but that *is* the bottom line.

Yes, I know, there is merit in "how they probably should work" but the bottom line is that the mechanics is far too imperfect for it to realistically be WAD; and that even when following the "perfect methodology" units still, mysteriously, either stroll into combat, drop lances or send in 2 guys whilst the rest have a brew-up and some crumpets behind the lines.

It's a very useful post, but charging is still badly broken in the terms as out laid above.

i've lined up a full unit of feudal knights 100yards behind the back of a spearmen unit, let them fidget into perfect formation (for half a day) and then single-clicked: do they charge? Pfft , do they balll-cocks: 3 of them walk forward and the rest just stand there, then, after the first three are cut down by the (totally outflanked and already engaged-in-battle spearmen), the rest decide to get involved and promptly get hacked to pieces.

Meanwhile my hastily assembled half-depleted entirely out-of-formation hobilars, hastily rushed around the side to help out, do a perfect charge from 10 yards.

:wall:

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Originally Posted by Akka

This thread is a great work and very good for the communauty.

But I can't help myself to think : if such a large post is needed to understand how to make a cavalry charge, and if so many people have trouble with it, isn't it, in the end, a proof that the interface/mechanics of the game have a serious problem ?

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Not really, no. Or at least, not *entirely*. I believe that what people have trouble with is the change in mechanics at the most basic level, which are (probably) not discussed in the manual. Well, I say probably because, well, who reads TW manuals anymore when you've been playing them all since Shogun :laugh4: (*). Which is pretty much my point : it's the lack of documentation (even in the battle tutorial/advisor) rather than the mechanics themselves that I'd blame.

When you do get the hang of it, it becomes much, much easier to get a good, steamrolling charge in, though I'll admit some other buggy/intended-but-poorly-thought-out features still get in the way sometimes. Things like charges halting when the first few men make contact (but that's less true of cav than it is of inf I think, cav usually spend their momentum but do reach and skewer the first rank regardless most of the time), or the increased anti-blobbing clipping which can get squarely in the way of a perfect charge because there's one man, one rock or god forbid one stupid twig in the way...

I'm confident these things will get fine tuned eventually, and I really believe that the precision and attention needed to proper-charge coupled with the fragility of unbarded horses go a long way towards balancing cav and making it truer to life, without making it either overpowered or useless, which would have been a tricky thing to do with tweaked stats only. YRMD, of course :sweatdrop:


(*) Note : I checked the manual as I was posting this, and nib, nada, zilch on charges, only the bare minimum "right click on an enemy unit to order your men to attack them".

Just confirming that charging skirmishing missile units really does work much better if done in loose formation and with double right click... Ironically, the game "advisor" comes up and tells that "You are charging with a cavalry unit in loose formation. Do not forget to close formation before you hit the target.".... If a player does that - that's exactly when the cavalry suffers the biggest casualties... To me - definitely seems bugged and the opposite of what it should be.

On another note, in the current pre-patch (hopefully) version, charging any target unit (swords, spears, cavalry) that is not in a good formation works much better in loose formation...

btw you should "run" charge if someone is charging at you or just running toward your cavalry unit.

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Originally Posted by Kobal2fr

...or the increased anti-blobbing clipping which can get squarely in the way of a perfect charge because there's one man, one rock or god forbid one stupid twig in the way...

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Leaves on the line eh? If they can stop a train going at full whack, no wonder our knights are having such trouble. But maybe that should just apply to the English...

I am wondering if it has something to do with the new area of influence given to each soldier now instead of treating them as a whole unit.

Today I did a sally on Milan who was using crossbows, I finally lured them ahead a bit and they were just sitting there shooting at my archers. (btw I love how the genosian (sp?) crossbow ducks behind shields to rewind) So I took my knights out, gave them the one click and by god they charged! Once enganged I ran em back because the spear units were coming by this time. By the time I glanced at the field, I noticed that one charged wiped out the crossbow guys completely. Granted they werent full strength but still about 30 strong. My charges never work that good.

Anyways sorry I got sidetracked, later I was fighting some rebels with my cav and I noticed doing the single click charge 1 guy would charge way ahead and it seems as soon as he engages it send that AOE signal so the rest sorta sputter and die.

ALso it seems to work better if you stop the guys move them a bit so they reposition and then click again.

I still havent figured out lances, they need maybe a ammo counter like the javelins in RTW if they are running out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Darkmoor_Dragon

Charges are just plain broken/badly bugged, sorry but that *is* the bottom line.

Yes, I know, there is merit in "how they probably should work" but the bottom line is that the mechanics is far too imperfect for it to realistically be WAD; and that even when following the "perfect methodology" units still, mysteriously, either stroll into combat, drop lances or send in 2 guys whilst the rest have a brew-up and some crumpets behind the lines.

It's a very useful post, but charging is still badly broken in the terms as out laid above.

i've lined up a full unit of feudal knights 100yards behind the back of a spearmen unit, let them fidget into perfect formation (for half a day) and then single-clicked: do they charge? Pfft , do they balll-cocks: 3 of them walk forward and the rest just stand there, then, after the first three are cut down by the (totally outflanked and already engaged-in-battle spearmen), the rest decide to get involved and promptly get hacked to pieces.

Meanwhile my hastily assembled half-depleted entirely out-of-formation hobilars, hastily rushed around the side to help out, do a perfect charge from 10 yards.

:wall:

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Watch the terrain very closely. I strongly suspect terrain is playing more of a role in successful charges then we know. There is actually very little terrain that is the flat open ground that is ideal for a cavalry charges.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Darkmoor_Dragon

Charges are just plain broken/badly bugged, sorry but that *is* the bottom line.

Yes, I know, there is merit in "how they probably should work" but the bottom line is that the mechanics is far too imperfect for it to realistically be WAD; and that even when following the "perfect methodology" units still, mysteriously, either stroll into combat, drop lances or send in 2 guys whilst the rest have a brew-up and some crumpets behind the lines.

It's a very useful post, but charging is still badly broken in the terms as out laid above.

i've lined up a full unit of feudal knights 100yards behind the back of a spearmen unit, let them fidget into perfect formation (for half a day) and then single-clicked: do they charge? Pfft , do they balll-cocks: 3 of them walk forward and the rest just stand there, then, after the first three are cut down by the (totally outflanked and already engaged-in-battle spearmen), the rest decide to get involved and promptly get hacked to pieces.

Meanwhile my hastily assembled half-depleted entirely out-of-formation hobilars, hastily rushed around the side to help out, do a perfect charge from 10 yards.

:wall:

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I agree wholeheartedly. Unit cohesion is the matter here, not "realism". The best method so far is "resetting" the formation by clicking the tight/loose formation button a few times.

Lances will go down if the knights walk/run against the enemy without changing direction at any point of their movement. No one-click or double click rule...BUT

1. When they are alredy in movement and the player click the to attack a new enemy they are bound to strafe because the possibilities of the new enemy to be exactly in front of them is small.

2. Knights will use lances even if they reach their enemy walking as long as they did so in straigt line. Of cource the damage will be almost nothing.

3. Knights can charge the whoe battlefioeld with lances if they don't alter direction in the meantime. Again damage will not be as big as it would be if they accelarated about 30-50 meters before the target.

4. Trees or even big bushes intervening in their movement can cause the unit to drag swords.

5. The easiest target for charge is either a stationary unit or one which attacks against the knights.

Probably just a bit of tweaking is required. I find that my charges work fine if single click is used. The real thought is to remember to disengage and charge again. As was noted early in this thread, one cant just charge once, like in RTW. But I think a patch can fix it.

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Originally Posted by Lochar

I still havent figured out lances, they need maybe a ammo counter like the javelins in RTW if they are running out.

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It's just cosmetic. Sometimes you'll charge, switch to swords to mop up, and the knights will keep their swords drawn from then on. They'll switch back to their lances when you do another proper charge, or when stopped in charge range, don't worry about that (in fact, it's quite goofy to watch. They'll walk towards target waving their swords, then trot a bit, then boom, the lances are back and couched out of thin air the second they start galloping :laugh4: )

For the record, the AI will try to mess up your charge. This is particularly true if the target's cavalry. Everytime I lined up for a charge on an approaching bodyguard unit, he pulled away.

It was sensible, and I like it.

It's all very good and well changing the way we play to take into account of "new game mechanics", but you know what? It's still broken. I wondered why it doesn't say anywhere in the manual or anywhere else that you have to "line up your troops, get them a proper distance away and single click blah blah". That's cause it's broken. This whole thing is flawed and helpful as this post is, it's merely a work-around for a broken mechanic.

How do I know? cause the game is designed to charge just like it always was. Anyone bother to play the tutorial? I remembered doing a charge in the tutorial so i thought I'd check out how CA really wanted us to charge - and it's the good old "double click and let 'em rip" - same as it always was.

Here's the proof.....

http://www.maestro.me.uk/TotalWar/chargingtutorial.JPG

There's the evidence. There's no messing about, no lining anything up, no getting to just outside charging range and then single clicking - it's as we always expected, and wanted it to be: double click and let 'em rip!

I expect this sill be fixed in the patch.

The mighty Shogun returns! This has all been fixed in Shogun 2.

No more sillyness where a ton of man-horse-metal would hit a wall because another guy in the unit tripped over a peasant. 0_o
No more invisible lances. Just pure, raw generalship.

Results of some tests Yari Cav (me) vs. Yari Ashigaru (meat puppet):
All numbers are for Ashigaru casualties.

Walking (autocharge)
Front: 22, 11, 27, 27
Notes - I think the 11 was when they were running. It appears the autocharge is still too stupid to time it correctly.
Rear: 37
Notes - clearly they were walking. Very kind of them. Not so common in battle, another lovely feature of autocharge.
L Flank: 53
R Flank: 56

Running charge
Front: 30, 25, 27
Rear: 80, 80, 81
Notes - the third one was rear 45 degree. All instant routs, of course.
L Flank: 47
Notes - closer to front 45 degree
R Flank: 54

General (charging) vs General (stationary)
Front amble
5 vs 5 casualties
Front run
4 vs 8 casualties

Analysis: Despite the small sample size and the difficulty of exactly reproducing the conditions, it is clear that Yari cavalry now obey the laws of physics and are not completely incompetent. They are graceful and skilled horsemen - if they hit at an angle they flow over the face of the cannon-fodder. My joy and relief are unbounded. All is well and happy in the land.

New strategy for charging correctly:
Wait for the perfect moment to send them running like whipped dogs. Then look, think, pick you target carefully, break from the woods where the cav were cunningly hiding up to now, get behind the victims, single click to align, double-click to charge and never, ever, autocharge. If they don't break instantly you're not doing it right.

Enjoy it, I sure am.