Chicago boots ads for Christmas movie from Christmas fair

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Originally Posted by BigTex

Going to have to say that Don was merely mentioning the double standard that exists. Indeed there's very little wrong with the roleplaying the children did, and thats the point. There have been lawsuits over much less when it involves christian themes. People have tryed to sue over schools having a moment of silence for anything, because when it was first instituted it was generally a moment for prayer.

Have a bright sun filled Mithra's day.

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I can see your point, and think it a good one.

Nonetheless, if Christian role-play was allowed (as it should be in the terms of the Muslim version disucssed) could we trust that it would go no further?

If I was a parent, I'd trust someone with a faith like Don's to be fair and clear, but there are clearly forces in US education that would not be satisfied with just a taster role-play. Once the fundie foot was in the door, would they push harder and faster?

I'm an outsider from across the pond, so I may be overstating the case - but when the US system seems to be under pressure to include creationism and intelligent design as serious science, can parents really relax over any Christian religious agenda?

What controls would moderate Christians like to see to support teachers who wanted to educate children about Christianity/other religions in schools (good idea) without them being indoctrinated by the loonies (bad idea)?

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Originally Posted by Del Arroyo

the problem is our hypocritical, double standard, suicidal PC-culture.

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That about sums it up for me, on this and so many other issues. :sad:

And Banquo, while your argument fires off slippery slope warnings in my head, I can understand your concern, and the fiasco in Kansas City was certainly embarrassing. I'm not sure what controls should be instituted, but I agree with you completely on the objective of fair and non-manipulative introduction to a great diversity of religious and philosophical outlooks.

Ajax

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Originally Posted by ajaxfetish

That about sums it up for me, on this and so many other issues. :sad:

And Banquo, while your argument fires off slippery slope warnings in my head, I can understand your concern, and the fiasco in Kansas City was certainly embarrassing. I'm not sure what controls should be instituted, but I agree with you completely on the objective of fair and non-manipulative introduction to a great diversity of religious and philosophical outlooks.

Ajax

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Yep the issue in Kansas was certainily embrassing for the members who voted for it - everyone that voted for it was removed from office during the next election.

Very good point, Banguo's Ghost.

I think that the muslim roleplaying has a harmless intent, to promote greater understanding and lessen prejudice. In many cases, such actions from evangelical Christians should be considered as having a much different intent. The very word evangelical is the clue. It can be defined as zealotry. These people see it as their holy duty to spread their religion, often by any means necessary. They really believe that it is their God-given duty to spread the Word of God. They aren't merely content with promoting greater understanding of the religion, they're actually interested in actively promoting the religion itself. This is a fine distinction.

In this aspect, proselytizing evangelical Christians are not much different from Islamic fundamentalists who seek to force Islam on the rest of the world. The tactics are different; but the end goals are strikingly similar. The believe that they hold the only "truth" and the others must be brought to that truth, whether they're willing or not. Neither group will be content until all societies, governments and laws, and individuals conform to their own particular religious view.

Edit: and I should add that the actions of the membership doesn't necessarily reflect the actual religion, but instead the interpretations made by the authorities within the religion. That distinction is to forestall any red herring arguments that one or another religion doesn't espouse forced conversions. :wink:

This isn't about PC douchebaguerie, this is about a film production company withdrawing a trailer for a new film, the Nativity Story, and not at the behest of the city. Waah waah friggin' waah. As if people who take their religion seriously want to see an advertisement for its commercialization looped all damn day anyway.

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Originally Posted by GoreBag

This isn't about PC douchebaguerie, this is about a film production company withdrawing a trailer for a new film, the Nativity Story, and not at the behest of the city. Waah waah friggin' waah. As if people who take their religion seriously want to see an advertisement for its commercialization looped all damn day anyway.

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Three points:

1) As Xiahou and BigTex pointed out, I wasn't taking issue with the Muslim role-playing. I was pointing to hypocricy in our legal system.

2) Gorebag, the city saying "we're not telling you to make them take the trailers out, but if you don't there could be serious consequences. Very serious." IS in fact the city telling the organizers to drop it, regardless of how subtle their threats are (or aren't). It's the equivalent of a mob racqueeter making vague comments about "it'd be a shame for your shop to have a completely accidental fire at exactly 3AM tomorrow morning.".

3) actually, it's the scriptural basis to the movie that caused the stink. if it had been commercialization, it would have been fine.

Merry $&#@-mas! ~:santa:
Censored, to protect the offendable, from offense.

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Nonetheless, if Christian role-play was allowed (as it should be in the terms of the Muslim version disucssed) could we trust that it would go no further?

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Are you assuming we can blindly trust Muslim role-play to go no further?

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Censored, to protect the offendable, from offense.

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Bah to that! Merry Christmas all!

Crazed Rabbit

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Three points:

1) As Xiahou and BigTex pointed out, I wasn't taking issue with the Muslim role-playing. I was pointing to hypocricy in our legal system.

2) Gorebag, the city saying "we're not telling you to make them take the trailers out, but if you don't there could be serious consequences. Very serious." IS in fact the city telling the organizers to drop it, regardless of how subtle their threats are (or aren't). It's the equivalent of a mob racqueeter making vague comments about "it'd be a shame for your shop to have a completely accidental fire at exactly 3AM tomorrow morning.".

3) actually, it's the scriptural basis to the movie that caused the stink. if it had been commercialization, it would have been fine.

Merry $&#@-mas! ~:santa:
Censored, to protect the offendable, from offense.

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Nowhere in the article does it say that city officials threatened or otherwise coerced the organizers to remove the film. They 'asked' them to do it so as not to appear to support one religion over another. Why they care, I don't know. I don't care. In any case, there is still a 'nativity scene' and displays for every other little cult popular enough to 'warrant' one.

HAY GUYS CHRISTIANS ARE OPPRESSED TOO

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and the fiasco in Kansas City was certainly embarrassing

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If you're talking about the board of education and evolution, it seems like you haven't read the teaching guidelines, unless you're embarrased by evolution being taught and a tiny fragment of the guidelines being devoted to teaching possible, small holes in the current theory of evolution with nothing mentioning teaching creationism.

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Nowhere in the article does it say that city officials threatened or otherwise coerced the organizers to remove the film.

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I thought you were our resident humbug cynic. But it seems you believe "Golly gee, if the city didn't explicitly threaten the event, then the event managers have nothing to worry about at all."

Crazed Rabbit

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Are you assuming we can blindly trust Muslim role-play to go no further?

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No. If the situation was occuring in the UK or France, for example, I would be very concerned that the same sort of controls against fundamentalists were in place.

From my limited knowledge, I don't think Muslim fundamentalist influence is as pernicious in US schools as the Christian flavour.

Very pretty straw man though. :smile: I liked the bow tie especially.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Here it is in California
and in Oregon

Note, the first document I linked to was Judge Phyllis Hamilton's decision to grant the defendants (the school board) a summary dismissal. She finds that while yes, children role play at being muslims: taking muslim names, reading the quran, chanting "Allahu akbar" in response to teacher incitements, this did not technically violate any separation of church and state, as the students were supposed to know that it was fantasy and they were only role playing.

So, if I force kids to read Revelations, make them write an essay on how they plan to prepare for the rapture, make them list 5 sins they have committed for which Jesus had to die to save them, but said it was all role-playing... how long do you think that argument would hold up?

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My limited understanding of the American legal system (or interpretation of the US law by its judges, if that makes sense) says that the Bill of Rights does not apply to minors. There have been similar cases posted in the backroom and that would be the only logical conclusion.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

I thought you were our resident humbug cynic. But it seems you believe "Golly gee, if the city didn't explicitly threaten the event, then the event managers have nothing to worry about at all."

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Golly gee, my reading comprehension skills must be interfering with my cynicism.