Regional accents

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Originally Posted by yesdachi

...I find accents very intriguing, being from the lower peninsula of Michigan I don’t really have much of one...

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LP Michiganders (including me; I grew up there) always say that - but they do, actually have a distinct accent, which one can hear after leaving the place for awhile, then returning. Think of it as a softened less-nasal NYC accent.

T's and D's are almost spit out, G's on word-endings are ignored altogether, and words are formed deep in the mouth (almost in the throat) before being pushed out with a good bit of air. And there is an uneasy truce in our use of vowels, the same speaker often switching between English/Ontario 'hard' vowel sounds, and older, 'softer' French soundings, in the same conversation.

I left Michigan in the 70's, travelled a good bit, and returned for a funeral last year. The accents I heard from my family and friends there made me giggle at first... but in less than a day, I was speaking just like them again, as evidenced by the video my sister made.

To answer currywurry's starter question: especially west of the Mississippi River, one could travel thousands of miles in western US before a different accent is heard.

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

LP Michiganders (including me; I grew up there) always say that - but they do, actually have a distinct accent, which one can hear after leaving the place for awhile, then returning. Think of it as a softened less-nasal NYC accent.

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Sure everyone has an accent, but us LP Michiganders accent is pretty subtle compared to some of the thick and distinct ones just a state (or peninsula, eh) away. I heard one linguist say our area was boring. :laugh4:



I have bounced around a bit but have been in the (snow and ice covered today) Greater Grand Rapids area for the last 15 years, what area, if you don’t mind me asking, did you grow up in Kukri?

I grew up in Detroit's inner city (home of the 60's riots - we had National Guard snipers perched on the church roof next door). I left home and the city at age 19; that same year, the rest of the family moved north to the Pontiac area. I've often accused them of waiting 'til I split to find a nicer neighborhood. :laugh4:

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...I heard one linguist say our area was boring.

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Heh. No argument there. :) If you ignore the content, and just listen to the "music" of LP-Mich-speak, it's quite monotonic - all grumbling and mumbling and throat noise, unlike sing-song Alabama, or twangy Texan.

I've always been fascinated by, but totally ignorant of, American accents. I can tell Americans sound different, but can't place them. It makes me sympathise with non-Brits who can't figure out the regional accents that are second nature to natives like me.

To help me place them, is there any website with audio files dedicated to regional accents? So you could sample them and put a place to a sound. Its the kind of thing that would the internet would seem suited to, I'd be surprised if it did not exist.

Alternatively, could people suggest well known Americans (e.g. actors) with strong accents and place them? I guess it's hard for an outsider like me to tell the difference between a regional accent and someone who has just got a quirky sounding voice.

To start things off, what about the following:

Bill Clinton - Arkansas?
Robert De Nero - New York/Italian American?
<and that's the sum total of my "knowledge" - I told you I was clueless>
Donald Rumsfeld?
George W. Bush?
George Bush senior? (do father and son have the same accent?)
Ronald Reagan?
John Wayne?
Jimmy Stewart?
Dolly Parton?
Don Johnson?
Sigourney Weaver?
Will Smith?
Harrison Ford?
Bruce Willis?
Ros from "Frasier" (don't know if it is just a quirky voice, but if that is a Seattle accent, I'm applying for a job at Microsoft - it's gorgeous)

Of all those people you listed econ only Robert De Nero and Dolly Parton have overt accents. Most people in the US who wish a life in the public eye tend to have voice training to lose regionality in their speech. Actors more especially. Also in my own experience rural people tend to have a more region specific drawl than urban people.

Also Bush senior sounds like a New Englander. IIRC in fact I think that's where he was raised for the most part, his father moved the family to Texas to get into oil when he was in his teens.

And then there is how accents are split by ethnicity (white people and black people from the same area will talk differently).

A decent link for this subject:

BBC link

Interesting to read that TV is thought to have little effect on dialect and accent, contrary to popular conception according to the 'TV is evil' brigade.


Also, I didn't know that the use of 'Fall' for autumn is in fact the original old English word, and not a recent modern Americanism; and it's still used in parts of the west country and Lincolnshire. Autumn is apparently a late medieval Frenchism. I learn something every day.

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Originally Posted by econ21

Alternatively, could people suggest well known Americans (e.g. actors) with strong accents and place them?
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To start things off, what about the following:

Bill Clinton - Arkansas?
Robert De Nero - New York/Italian American?
...
Bruce Willis?
Ros from "Frasier"

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What about Arnold Swarschzenegger ?

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Originally Posted by lars573

Of all those people you listed econ only Robert De Nero and Dolly Parton have overt accents.

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Gosh, how boring. Oh well, I guess it is just the diversity in the voices and the way people talk rather than any regional accent that caught my attention.

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Most people in the US who wish a life in the public eye tend to have voice training to lose regionality in their speech. Actors more especially.

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Britain is also dominated by an English "received pronounciation" - I guess Tony Blair would be as good an example as any. However, Welsh, Scots and Irish accents are well represented in public life.

British actors do sometimes retain mild regional accents but often in their parts, they switch to received pronounciation. For example, Ewan MacGeggor has a nice mild Scottish accent, but unsuccessfuly tries to go (1950s) RP as Obi Wan Kenobi. Likewise, Ian MacClellan has a Lancashire accent, but you'd never guess it from his plummy Gandalf.

A regional accent in England tends to be an indicator of (lower) social class, with many famour social climbers making sure to lose the accent (and to my ears often sounding rather phoney as a result - Roy Jenkins, Margaret Thatcher).

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Originally Posted by econ21

British actors do sometimes retain mild regional accents but often in their parts, they switch to received pronounciation. For example, Ewan MacGeggor has a nice mild Scottish accent, but unsuccessfuly tries to go (1950s) RP as Obi Wan Kenobi. Likewise, Ian MacClellan has a Lancashire accent, but you'd never guess it from his plummy Gandalf.

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I believe Sir Ian MacKellen is a "luvvie", along with Patrick Stewart, the actor who played Fred Elliot in "Coronation Street", et al.

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Originally Posted by D Wilson

That's what I used to say until I moved to Wales. And then Scotland.
And I used to argue with the Welsh and Scots that it was they who had accents and that I didn't, as if an accent was some kind of black mark.

But when I had finally got my head round the fact that I did indeed have an accent, I finally began to hear it, and now I'm amazed at how prominent it is when I speak to people.

So yep, you do have an accent, maybe not to yourself or the people you know, but to billions of people elsewhere, you do.

And then I thank God mine isn't Brummie. :yes:

But I'd have to describe mine as BBC English mixed with an occasionaly Welsh lilt and the odd Scottish turn of phrase, and my Essex roots rearing their ugly accentual head when I'm angry.

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Ah, thats the modern PC version. I speak RP with a very slight South England bias. So in fact I do not have an accent. I speak English the way it is spelt. The fact that the way it is spelt was standardised in my part of the country is immaterial. I am as close to the neutral yardstick as you ever get.

That is what I mean when I say, "I don't have an accent." Everyone else's accent is measured by mine.

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Originally Posted by Wigferth Ironwall

Ah, thats the modern PC version. I speak RP with a very slight South England bias. So in fact I do not have an accent. I speak English the way it is spelt. The fact that the way it is spelt was standardised in my part of the country is immaterial. I am as close to the neutral yardstick as you ever get.

That is what I mean when I say, "I don't have an accent." Everyone else's accent is measured by mine.

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Oh, no, because you chaps never say your "r"s properly. In fact, you often ignore them...

I took a drive through Scotland one time, and had a lot of fun trying to figure out what people were saying to me from town to town. Then I got to Inverness, and thought I had taken a wrong turn somewhere. Did someone pick that city up from England somewhere and move it north?

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Originally Posted by econ21

Gosh, how boring. Oh well, I guess it is just the diversity in the voices and the way people talk rather than any regional accent that caught my attention.

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Well like I said overt. Most of them probably have some relics and twang that if you know what your hearing can pick out a hint of something. Bill Clinton worked very hard not to sound like he was from Arkansas, Jimmy Carter never bothered. From what I've read what news and hollywood consider "normal" american speech occurs naturally around St. Louis. I've heard tell that when a network is grooming a person for a national spot they send them to a station in or around St. Louis to pick up the "right" speech pattern. Actors use a voice coach to learn the same. Now for the Bush men jr. has no overt accent. If I didn't know he was raised in Texas I wouldn't be able to tell. Bush sr. sounds like a Boston (or just general New England) area extract. The Kennedy's however all sound(ed) like they are rich Boston kids. Which is true.

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Originally Posted by econ21

Britain is also dominated by an English "received pronounciation" - I guess Tony Blair would be as good an example as any. However, Welsh, Scots and Irish accents are well represented in public life.

British actors do sometimes retain mild regional accents but often in their parts, they switch to received pronounciation. For example, Ewan MacGeggor has a nice mild Scottish accent, but unsuccessfuly tries to go (1950s) RP as Obi Wan Kenobi. Likewise, Ian MacClellan has a Lancashire accent, but you'd never guess it from his plummy Gandalf.

A regional accent in England tends to be an indicator of (lower) social class, with many famour social climbers making sure to lose the accent (and to my ears often sounding rather phoney as a result - Roy Jenkins, Margaret Thatcher).

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For British actors and public figures losing unintelligible local slang/pronounciation seems to be the biggest factor. Unless they have to do RP. Course the actors I really have respect for are the ones who can pull off convincing foregin (to them) accents. Like Alexis Denisof, who played Wesley on Angel and Buffy. Who can do RP quite well, so well that unless you hear him out of character you'd think he was British.

Actually, Alexis Denisof sounds a bit fake, not very but when he's next to Anthony Head you can tell.

Malcolm, can you give an example of the "r" thing?

So does Ewan MacGeggor. But that's because it is. Funny thing is when he was in the Sharpe series you couldn't tell. But there everyone in the cast played up their regional dialect. Especailly Sean Bean.

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Originally Posted by econ21

I've always been fascinated by, but totally ignorant of, American accents. I can tell Americans sound different, but can't place them. It makes me sympathise with non-Brits who can't figure out the regional accents that are second nature to natives like me.

To help me place them, is there any website with audio files dedicated to regional accents? So you could sample them and put a place to a sound. Its the kind of thing that would the internet would seem suited to, I'd be surprised if it did not exist.

Alternatively, could people suggest well known Americans (e.g. actors) with strong accents and place them? I guess it's hard for an outsider like me to tell the difference between a regional accent and someone who has just got a quirky sounding voice.

To start things off, what about the following:

Bill Clinton - Arkansas?
Robert De Nero - New York/Italian American?
<and that's the sum total of my "knowledge" - I told you I was clueless>
Donald Rumsfeld? Illinois; mid-US accent from 30 years ago
George W. Bush? extemporaneously: Texan (possibly affected); speeching: mid-Missouri, with a bit of Dad's New England clippy-ness.
George Bush senior? (do father and son have the same accent?) No - 2 thousand miles apart. Senior = clipped, Jr = drawled.
Ronald Reagan? Illinois, then Hollywood (similar to Rummy)
John Wayne? Iowa (a bit west of Reagan's Illinois), very plain, literal pronunciation, flavored early by California's lingual soup
Jimmy Stewart? Pennsylvanian, oddly unfettered by his experience in Hollywood. Likely how Gregoshi and late 1700's americans sounded.
Dolly Parton? Tennessean, with broad vowels, and long pauses between phrases. Not far removed from early 1800's rural Scot/Irish, with diction enhanced by exposure to H'wood
Don Johnson? Missouri/Kansas... THE heartland. The neutral/slightly nasal accent to which H'wood wannabe's aspire
Sigourney Weaver? New York City, of theater/entertainment family, hence a cameleon accent, closely approximating Don Johnson's.
Will Smith? Black Philadelphian. Fluent in Ebonics, but not his first language (educated in Catholic schools). His broad vowels mimic gregoshi & Jimmy Stewart, and his (and their) extra h's, tacked onto S's throw back to Swabish Deutsch.
Harrison Ford? Illinois, with the extra 'mark' of Chicago 'clip-ness' (thrown out consonents, with no lingering on nasalities) - lost in his early career, resumed more recently, for authenticity, I think)
Bruce Willis? Interesting case. Army brat, germany, new jersey - the ultimate mimic/chameleon/actor
Ros from "Frasier" (don't know if it is just a quirky voice, but if that is a Seattle accent, I'm applying for a job at Microsoft - it's gorgeous)

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As Lars noted, your list picks folks who have made it their business to lose or dampen their regional accents; still their lingual origins can be heard when they speak extemporaneously.

Funny you picked "Roz" from Frasier. She's a perfect example of a hollywood-ized accent. What you hear there is her first 20 years in Texas, with the twang removed by studying at L.A. studio's, WITH the addition of lowering her register to imitate the bass-heavy voice favored by radio listeners here, for the part in Frasier she plays. When she is interviewed by the fan-mag TV shows, she is as Texas as green chili and BBQ. :)

My links have just about anything you could want to know about American accents and dialects.

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Originally Posted by Wigferth Ironwall

Ah, thats the modern PC version. I speak RP with a very slight South England bias. So in fact I do not have an accent. I speak English the way it is spelt. The fact that the way it is spelt was standardised in my part of the country is immaterial. I am as close to the neutral yardstick as you ever get.

That is what I mean when I say, "I don't have an accent." Everyone else's accent is measured by mine.

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So, with that southern accent you probably say, 'Mahster' instead of 'Master'. Not as it is spelt. ~;)

I refuse to believe that you Brits pronounce things as they're spelt. I'm an edumacated American and I've seen Monty Python!

"It's spelt Luxury Yacht, but it's pronounced Throat Warbler Mangrove."

You can't fool me! Hah! :wink:

Edit: Smilie attached so I'm not subjected to a long diatribe about how the above in quotes is impossible or some other nonsense.

Edit again: Gah! I got the Monty Python quote backwards!

An interesting observation from Lars:

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And then there is how accents are split by ethnicity (white people and black people from the same area will talk differently).

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I think this has more to do with social integration than anything. In the UK we have quite an established south asian community now, many from Pakistan, India and Bangladesh, and we're at the point of maybe third or fourth generation from their families' original immigration. There are certain cities where you will find larger concentration than others. With the asians in particular, the younger generation will have acquired the regional accent, even though the parents/grandparents may have a bit of "homeland" left in their voices. I often speak by phone to customers all over the country, and it's not at all unusual to hear broad Yorkshire accents coming from say a Mr Khan, or Glaswegian Kumars, or whatever.

The point is it's not ethnicity per se that affects language, but socialisation. Where distinct groups keep a distinct accent, it's more an indication of isolation from surrounding communities, or even an affectation designed to "create" an identity -- eg the UK middle class white kids trying to sound like black NY gangstas (sad but true :no: ) This cultural isolation can also occur within ethnicities, whether immigrant or indigenous.

As for my own accent, well it's drifted over the years. As a child I was a true reflection of my village, (but my parents hated it), and by the time I went off to university the accent became a lot more cosmopolitan. In my first term I even managed to "acquire" an accent from one of my flatmates without noticing it myself! Now I usually speak in the standard RP, especially at work, but when I'm more relaxed my roots show out :beam:

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Originally Posted by drone

I took a drive through Scotland one time, and had a lot of fun trying to figure out what people were saying to me from town to town. Then I got to Inverness, and thought I had taken a wrong turn somewhere. Did someone pick that city up from England somewhere and move it north?

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Inverness is well known for its English accent. On the other hand, did you go to Glasgow?

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Originally Posted by Red Peasant

So, with that southern accent you probably say, 'Mahster' instead of 'Master'. Not as it is spelt. ~;)

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No, I say Marster, and grars

The "S" makes the "A" go "AR"

Just like its spelt.

:2thumbsup:

However, I confess, I do not pronounce the words which William of Orange anf George I changed, but thats because they're seplt wrong. :beam:

It sure as hell ain't unique for england, I simply don't have a clue what the people from the south and the people from the north I saying unless I really really try, and it's a 2 hour drive from north to south. Someone from Amsterdam has a completily different accent then someone from Rotterdam, and someone from Den Haag has a completily different accent then someone from Rotterdam, even if these towns are 15 minutes from eachother. I really have no idea what people from scotland are saying, I contracted a few for a batch of fish that needed to be cleaned, it was hell to communicate with them. At first I thought it was gaelic, but it was just a really really strange english.

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Originally Posted by macsen rufus

An interesting observation from Lars:



I think this has more to do with social integration than anything. In the UK we have quite an established south asian community now, many from Pakistan, India and Bangladesh, and we're at the point of maybe third or fourth generation from their families' original immigration. There are certain cities where you will find larger concentration than others. With the asians in particular, the younger generation will have acquired the regional accent, even though the parents/grandparents may have a bit of "homeland" left in their voices. I often speak by phone to customers all over the country, and it's not at all unusual to hear broad Yorkshire accents coming from say a Mr Khan, or Glaswegian Kumars, or whatever.

The point is it's not ethnicity per se that affects language, but socialisation. Where distinct groups keep a distinct accent, it's more an indication of isolation from surrounding communities, or even an affectation designed to "create" an identity -- eg the UK middle class white kids trying to sound like black NY gangstas (sad but true :no: ) This cultural isolation can also occur within ethnicities, whether immigrant or indigenous.

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What I was talking about is more unique to North America. Where the Europeans and Africans from the same area can have different accents.

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Originally Posted by currywurry

So far it would appear to be unique to the UK, but i remember my old German teacher once told me that in Germany you can get many different regional accents. Are there any other countries like this?

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Better to say dialects than accents. :book: Plattdeutsch is good example.

This is case in every language. And before forced standardization of language y states in XIX century people hardly communicated.:book: Italian is perfect example.

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Originally Posted by Keba

Most European countries have a host of accents and even dialects varying according to geography, so, no it's not unique to the UK.

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I agree with my neighbor.:2thumbsup:


When I go in some near villages in my municipality I can't believe how they speak!
And where I study? Just 60 km northeast from my town and totally different accent! :wall:

While the US doesn't seem to have quite as distinguishable accents such as europe does they're still there. Being in Hawaii there's a whole lot of local kine talk that people use here. The locals like anywhere else speak better english when speaking to outsiders than with each other. Not near as difficult to understand as all those accents from the UK but still there.

I guess here a part of it is having so many different cultures here from all around the Pacific that its still developing from all the Japanese, Chinese, and Filipino words we use to the slang of English itself and then of course the few Hawaiian words still in regular use such as mauka and makai.

Another RP speaker here, pretty much all I hear where I'm at university - with a slight drawl dependent on which particular school one went to. Apparently the natives have their own accent, but who wants to mix with the Scots?

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Inverness is well known for its English accent. On the other hand, did you go to Glasgow?

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Yes, I did. I probably understood about 1 word out of 20 there. They almost beat out the Geordies for the prize of least understandable.

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Originally Posted by Wigferth Ironwall

No, I say Marster, and grars

The "S" makes the "A" go "AR"

Just like its spelt.
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Isn't it more "AH" rather than "AR"?

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Originally Posted by D Wilson

Isn't it more "AH" rather than "AR"?

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Unless you want to sound like Igor, yah.