Re: Militia Pikemen: Useless?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffBag
Pikemen only cost 150 though, so they definately destroy cavalry very cost-effectively.
What kind of test do I have to set up to see pikes destroy Cav?
Re: Militia Pikemen: Useless?
Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
A little off-topic, but in MTW I don't think there were separate armour penetration values. Just like M2TW, all AP weapons reduced armour by the same amount (in MTW, it was something like [Armour-3]/2 - the Ludus Magna has the exact formula).
True... Melee AP was a single formula for MTW (the one you put forth). But in ranged AP there were different strengths. For instance longbows gave AP of 0.5 (half armour), crossbows 0.4 (slightly better), Arbalests 0.3 (again better) and Arqs gave something like 0.15 or 0.015 (technically no armour).
Re: Militia Pikemen: Useless?
It's in the game, but like armor upgrade levels, it's unused. Check the primary_weapon_ex entry and the last value is the penetration. The entries are all commented out and some are missing data altogether. Example: Cossack muskets have 20 in that entry, but arquebusiers have 0.
Re: Militia Pikemen: Useless?
Quote:
Originally Posted by R'as al Ghul
Is this from your experience in campaign battles?
I did a custom battle on VH. I took Venice with 4 Militia Pikemen, 4 Armoured Sergeants, 1 Heavy Cav General. I build up a line with Pikemen centered and Sergeants covering their flanks. The enemy was France and had he same amount of units but all Heavy Cav. Chivalric Knights, Lancers etc.
The AI set up its line parallel to mine and waited. I moved one Pike unit slightly forward, AI moves slightly but stops again. Our positions are almost unaltered. A center Pike is slightly advanced. Not before I move one of the flank sergeants to attack one of his flank Cav does he charge, but when the Cav charge finally thunders against my line the battle is over quite quickly without the expected horrendous losses for Cav.
I found this rather puzzling. The AI seemed reluctant to charge the line maybe fearing heavy losses but when it did it didn't even have to pull back and recharge, it just finished me off in melee.
I expected that at least those cav units charging the pikes would be annihilated or at least routed so that the pikes could go over to the flanks and finish the other cav. As it was, the Cav was quite unimpressed and destroyed me.
My bottom line is that I don't understand the unit matchups at all. :wall:
R'as
Yes, my experience is all campaign-based. And the pikes have always been on the VH other side too, which may be an important factor to consider.
I admit I've never fought pikes out in the open, only in cities, and cav just don't work in cities in the first place, so throwing them against pikes would have been... uninformed :laugh4:. But for example, Flemish Pikemen have held against every kind of inf I've thrown at them from the front - feudal dismounted kanigets, heavy sarges, longbow yeomen, überpeasants, heavy billmen, Italian Spears, Moorish urban militia, Vikings and Huskarls... the Flemish just stand there, kill them, and take like 5 losses while killing a whole unit. I've taken Bruges a number of times with a number of factions, and the only thing that ever broke their pikewalls are either charging knights in their backs while they're busy from the front, or pushing a ballista down the street and let it skewer their nice, tight block.
Re: Militia Pikemen: Useless?
Pikes hold and repel cavalry brilliantly in my experience... I don't know what people are doing wrong to have them fail.
Re: Militia Pikemen: Useless?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobal2fr
Yes, my experience is all campaign-based. And the pikes have always been on the VH other side too, which may be an important factor to consider.
I admit I've never fought pikes out in the open, only in cities, and cav just don't work in cities in the first place, so throwing them against pikes would have been... uninformed :laugh4:. But for example, Flemish Pikemen have held against every kind of inf I've thrown at them from the front - feudal dismounted kanigets, heavy sarges, longbow yeomen, überpeasants, heavy billmen, Italian Spears, Moorish urban militia, Vikings and Huskarls... the Flemish just stand there, kill them, and take like 5 losses while killing a whole unit. I've taken Bruges a number of times with a number of factions, and the only thing that ever broke their pikewalls are either charging knights in their backs while they're busy from the front, or pushing a ballista down the street and let it skewer their nice, tight block.
Or you can fight them on the walls. Sure the losses will be great, but they won't present an unpenetrable block but individuals with swords.
