Palestinian in-fighting murders three children

So Reenk, one faction's hitmen kill the children of a high ranking official from the other faction, all Palestinian mind you, and you feel free to drop the blame at Israel's door? :dizzy2: Yeah, that's a well-thought out position...

Amazingly, I'm with Idaho on this. I don't think we can say anything until we know where those gunmen came from. Fatah is pretty damn sure they were Hamas agents. Hamas is putting a lot of credbility on the line with everyone of them in lockstep on a supposed lie, denying any involvement. The tone of their denials and the lack of wiggle room leaves me thinking there might be something to it.

Hizbollah doesn't like it when things quiet down over there. Perhaps them or some other 4th party? Hell, for all we know it could have been organized crime. Murdering somebody's children smacks of retaliation from a crime family, not a politically motivated killing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

So Reenk, one faction's hitmen kill the children of a high ranking official from the other faction, all Palestinian mind you, and you feel free to drop the blame at Israel's door? :dizzy2: Yeah, that's a well-thought out position...

---

Hey Don, I just wanted to note that I was making a remark on the media slants of both respective sides concerning the whole issue and not this incident, and that I was just making a remark, not taking a position.

In fact, the content of Vladimir's quote (I didn't bother to read the article) which I was responding to clearly seems like it is concerning the whole situation.

I made that clear in my response to Prince as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Idaho

Now as for these poor child-like apes being incapable of rational behaviour - I would remind you of the death toll in Iraq of children killed by US bombs and bullets. Not to mention the prevalance of torture, rape and murder of civillians by US soldiers there.

---

Oh Well Idaho, that what happens when you fight a war with Inserguents,deal with it. That why I don't even post in these threads anymore. some people just don't understand crap.:no:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888

some people just don't understand crap.:no:

---

This is a very supercilious statement to make.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reenk Roink

This is a very supercilious statement to make.

---

Although crude, argueably it does have some truth to it.

I find it amusing that you began your post with this:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Idaho

Another org thread where the brain cells are barely engaged and the ill-thought out cliches roll in like self-satisfied sea mist.

---

Then ended with this:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Idaho

I would remind you of the death toll in Iraq of children killed by US bombs and bullets. Not to mention the prevalance of torture, rape and murder of civillians by US soldiers there.

---

Decided to fight fire with fire, did you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goofball

Decided to fight fire with fire, did you?

---

:laugh4: - thats not very nice

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pannonian

whatever they do, they'll find that being denied economic access to the EU is going to hurt. A lot. No amount of subsidies from the US or Muslim countries is going to make up for it. Perhaps then they'll start listening to our advice to stop fighting.

---

thats my problem with the whole thing, it will hurt, but it will be the normal people who suffer, not the governments themselves... i also dont think it will stop fighting, it will stop any european or american deaths, but sectarian violence will surely continue.

Quote:

---

Israel is militarily more powerful than all the Arab countries combined if they wish to fight on Israeli soil. Palestine and the other Arab countries don't have the capability to drive the Israelis into the sea - only Israel has the capability to expand and create a Greater Israel.

---

Debatable, i think if all the arab countries in the middle east unite against israel, it would end with israels defeat, or in either case an extremely bloody mess, with huge death tolls on boths sides and probably no complete conclusion (just more terrorists/freedom fighters to worry about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Warman

It's not Israel's fault. This is why they can't get their own state. they to dang stupid to realize that, killing each other and bombaring Israel wth missles won't help them..

---

Its not israels fault, i agree, but the palestiian state existed before the israel(ian?) state, and so from a palestinian point of view you can understand why this is irritable. Unless pressed internationally israel would never let palestine have a state, and negotiations will always be one sided, so for the average palestinian its only violence that seems to have any visible effect. Its gone on so long now that both sides use violence without thought. They are not stupid. From there pov its the only action that has any effect, and the kind of action that comes from growing up in an area of such violence etc.

long post for me :2thumbsup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scurvy

thats my problem with the whole thing, it will hurt, but it will be the normal people who suffer, not the governments themselves... i also dont think it will stop fighting, it will stop any european or american deaths, but sectarian violence will surely continue.

---

So why is that our concern? We've got all manner of ideas for bringing the conflict to an end. But they don't listen to us, so why should we pain ourselves over it? Surely even Cassandra grew tired after a while.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scurvy

Debatable, i think if all the arab countries in the middle east unite against israel, it would end with israels defeat, or in either case an extremely bloody mess, with huge death tolls on boths sides and probably no complete conclusion (just more terrorists/freedom fighters to worry about.

---

They'll run into the same problem they had before - how the heck do they get there? Egypt is friendly to Israel, and in any case their military isn't even close to Israel's in quality. Jordan is virtually an Israeli client state, they'll bark when Israel tells them to. Hezbollah were only potent recently because they fought on their own soil, behind carefully prepared defences. Once they cross the border they'll find that infantry, however numerous, aren't an effective offensive force without mobility and the rest of the modern paraphernalia to back it up. Israel can be embarrassed in war by the Arab countries. Israel cannot be defeated in war by the Arab countries.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pannonian

So why is that our concern? We've got all manner of ideas for bringing the conflict to an end. But they don't listen to us, so why should we pain ourselves over it? Surely even Cassandra grew tired after a while.

---

The normal people might well want our help, its the leaders that don't, they need our aid to survive, any loss of life is a reason for concern...
--> i dont get the cassandra bit :2thumbsup:

Pannonian, what you say makes sense in a clearly logical view, devoid of any compassion. But do you think you would be able to abide your policy after the second or third widespread famine? And if your point is we just send aid, surely you don't think the aid shipments will distribute themselves? Any aid workers sent over there will be political pawns. In order for your plan to work, the quarantine would have to be absolute, and we'd have to put ourselves in a pretty soulless place to sit back and watch the Middle East devolve into that kind of mayhem, starvation and anarchy.

It's a bloody mess, and what none of us seem to understand is that there is NO solution. Israel is a whipping boy for the Arabs. If we moved every last Israeli to Florida tomorrow and removed every last soldier from Iraq, Kuwait, Yemen, etctera, they'd still be killing each other. Then it would be our fault for NOT being involved...:dizzy2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scurvy

The normal people might well want our help, its the leaders that don't, they need our aid to survive, any loss of life is a reason for concern...
--> i dont get the cassandra bit :2thumbsup:

---

Cassandra

"In Greek mythology, Cassandra was a daughter of King Priam and Queen Hecuba of Troy whose beauty caused Apollo to grant her the gift of prophecy. However, when she did not return his love, Apollo placed a curse on her so that no one would ever believe her predictions."

I don't see why we should continue to whip ourselves over the issue when no-one in the region listens to us. If Cassandra were smart, she would have cleared out of Troy before the Greeks came to play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Pannonian, what you say makes sense in a clearly logical view, devoid of any compassion. But do you think you would be able to abide your policy after the second or third widespread famine? And if your point is we just send aid, surely you don't think the aid shipments will distribute themselves? Any aid workers sent over there will be political pawns. In order for your plan to work, the quarantine would have to be absolute, and we'd have to put ourselves in a pretty soulless place to sit back and watch the Middle East devolve into that kind of mayhem, starvation and anarchy.

---

If the middle east wants anarchy, let them have anarchy. If the EU feels anarchy is not in our interest, we'll intervene to make sure stability or whatever is put in place. If it doesn't make much difference either way what happens, then we intervene at our discretion. If our interests aren't involved, and the participants don't want us poking our nose in, and whatever help we offer is spurned, why should we continue to help? Gandhi or one of the other Indian nationalists once commented, if he had to choose between the British and anarchy, he would want the British out of India.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

It's a bloody mess, and what none of us seem to understand is that there is NO solution. Israel is a whipping boy for the Arabs. If we moved every last Israeli to Florida tomorrow and removed every last soldier from Iraq, Kuwait, Yemen, etctera, they'd still be killing each other. Then it would be our fault for NOT being involved...:dizzy2:

---

Then let them blame us however much they want. I've not seen many terrorist movements that gained support through blaming an absence of intervention. It's easy to get vocal supporters through that, less easy to get activists.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pannonian

If the middle east wants anarchy, let them have anarchy. If the EU feels anarchy is not in our interest, we'll intervene to make sure stability or whatever is put in place. If it doesn't make much difference either way what happens, then we intervene at our discretion. If our interests aren't involved, and the participants don't want us poking our nose in, and whatever help we offer is spurned, why should we continue to help?

---

help isnt spurned, its much needed by the civilians.... the middle east doesnt want anarchy, it just doesnt know how to stop it, thats why we should help. As don commented earlier, you make it sound as if all of the people living in the middle east want violence and anarchy, they simply dont...:2thumbsup:

--> + thanks for the cassandra explanation

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goofball

I find it amusing that you began your post with this:

Then ended with this:

Decided to fight fire with fire, did you?

---

So are you saying that my statement of facts was in some way similar to nonsense about how arabs are savages unable to live peacefully.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scurvy

thats my problem with the whole thing, it will hurt, but it will be the normal people who suffer, not the governments themselves... i also dont think it will stop fighting, it will stop any european or american deaths, but sectarian violence will surely continue.

---

That's the central problem with western intervention in other nations in general. The standard tool we use is economic sanctions, which can hurt the general populace, but usually doesn't have much direct effect on the leaders who we want to punish (who, controlling the resources of their nation and with whatever quiet international ties they use, seem to get by in just as much luxury regardless of sanctions). I guess the idea is that we'll get the people so upset with the leadership requiring the sanctions that they'll rise up or at least be tense enough to pressure their government into caving to our demands. But it's so easy for that same government to blame the west for the sanctions, since we're the ones imposing them. Duh, we make ourselves the criminal and do nothing to undermine the very thing we're standing against, while hurting those we wish to help.

How could we go about toppling the government, though? Well, we did it in Iraq. I'm not sure the people are a whole lot better off generally than they were before. The problem with direct intervention through war is that however much people may be upset with their current government or their general living conditions, nationalism is a very strong power worldwide and they'd rather put up with those horrible native governments than succumb to foreign rule (including foreign rule through a foreign-controlled native government).

Any long-term solutions have to come from within. Our problem in the west is that we don't want other places to come up with their own solutions. We feel we already know better and we want to provide solutions for them. We may be justified in having good solutions handy, as I'd say quality of life in most western countries beats that in most of the places we try to intervene, but we have an incredible arrogance complex in thinking we have the power to change these nations at will. By intervening we only delay whatever internal solution (good or bad) may come and make ourselves a target in the process. It would not be pretty to ignore it either, though, because as pointed out many innocent people die in these struggles. Plus our own interests are closely tied to many of these areas, especially with the modern global energy situation. The whole thing is a big mess, and as Don says, there probably is no solution. Certainly there is no easy quick-fix or even simple long-term plan for recovery. What is to be done? I do not know. I can only cry at the suffering that will surely continue along the way.

Ajax

ps. And the actual killing of the children may or may not have anything to do with all that. As Idaho and Don pointed out, it's similar to much of the mob violence that still does happen in the west, and not necessarily a specifically mid-eastern phenomenon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Idaho

So are you saying that my statement of facts was in some way similar to nonsense about how arabs are savages unable to live peacefully.

---

I was saying that:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Idaho

ill-thought out cliches

---

very accurately describes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Idaho

I would remind you of the death toll in Iraq of children killed by US bombs and bullets. Not to mention the prevalance of torture, rape and murder of civillians by US soldiers there.

---

The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) knows, I'm no fan of the U.S. invasion of Iraq. I think it was illegal, poorly planned, and entirely without reason.

But your statement, placed as it was in a thread about Palestinians killing Palestinians, demonstrated exactly your point (that was aptly made, by the way) that threads involving the middle east tend to make posters rehash their favorite talking points with or without much thought as to their relevance to the topic at hand.

Quote:

---

None of these possibilities are exclusively Middle Eastern. In fact they are prevalent in the Great Satan itelf often enough. Don't you have frequent shootings and killings? Political assasinations are pretty common over the last 40 years too. Didn't you lot kill a president, his brother, and two prominent civil rights protestors?

Now as for these poor child-like apes being incapable of rational behaviour - I would remind you of the death toll in Iraq of children killed by US bombs and bullets. Not to mention the prevalance of torture, rape and murder of civillians by US soldiers there.

---

Why start making accusations and cut downs about America?

I havent read one post in the thread that put the USA above these people, or even had anything to do with the US.

I absolutely hate people who knee-jerk attack the USA for no reason whatsoever. People such as that are affectionately known over here as members of the "Blame America First" club.

Its like you cannot contain the vitriol, even when it is completely beside the point.

The USA, especially in recent years, is very deserving of criticism, but not in a thread that has nothing to do with it.

Jumping in a thread about Palestine and screaming about the baby-murdering americans in Iraq is stupid, pointless, and contributes nothing but hatred.

PS. Im sure there are drive by shootings in Japan occasionally, but what does that have to do with the topic? :wall:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prince of the Poodles

...Jumping in a thread about Palestine and screaming about the baby-murdering americans in Iraq is stupid, pointless, and contributes nothing but hatred.

PS. Im sure there are drive by shootings in Japan occasionally, but what does that have to do with the topic? :wall:

---

Idaho's attack was not done on auto-pilot.

Idaho attacked the West in general, and the USA in particular, in order to make the point that we of the West are no better than anyone in the Middle East and therefore have no right to consider Western culture superior or propose/enact solutions for them. He assumed/considered that a number of the comments in the thread so far reflect an attitude of cultural superiority, that those making such posts regard Middle Easterners as "beneath" them in some sense. This is what prompted his moral "high-horse" response.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Idaho's attack was not done on auto-pilot.

Idaho attacked the West in general, and the USA in particular, in order to make the point that we of the West are no better than anyone in the Middle East and therefore have no right to consider Western culture superior or propose/enact solutions for them. He assumed/considered that a number of the comments in the thread so far reflect an attitude of cultural superiority, that those making such posts regard Middle Easterners as "beneath" them in some sense. This is what prompted his moral "high-horse" response.

---

Can you imagine, people from a culture where there is freedom of religion, free speech, equality between women and men of all races, due process, voting and apple pie thinking their culture is superior to that of the Middle East. Humph, the nerve.

The “vacation/move to/raise a family in the Middle East” brochure looks like a nightmare.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Idaho's attack was not done on auto-pilot.

Idaho attacked the West in general, and the USA in particular, in order to make the point that we of the West are no better than anyone in the Middle East and therefore have no right to consider Western culture superior or propose/enact solutions for them. He assumed/considered that a number of the comments in the thread so far reflect an attitude of cultural superiority, that those making such posts regard Middle Easterners as "beneath" them in some sense. This is what prompted his moral "high-horse" response.

---

Why the USA in particular? The thread was not started by an American. No Americans made any "USA is better" type arguments. It seems as if someone had an axe to grind.

The baby-killing bit at the end sealed it, if there was any doubt. :no:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goofball

The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) knows, I'm no fan of the U.S. invasion of Iraq. I think it was illegal, poorly planned, and entirely without reason.

But your statement, placed as it was in a thread about Palestinians killing Palestinians, demonstrated exactly your point (that was aptly made, by the way) that threads involving the middle east tend to make posters rehash their favorite talking points with or without much thought as to their relevance to the topic at hand.

---

Fair enough Goofball. I was indeed blasting out the cliches to hit back at ignorance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yesdachi

Can you imagine, people from a culture where there is freedom of religion, free speech, equality between women and men of all races, due process, voting and apple pie thinking their culture is superior to that of the Middle East. Humph, the nerve. e.

---

-->

Quote:

---

that those making such posts regard Middle Easterners as "beneath" them in some sense. This is what prompted his moral "high-horse" response.

---

The culture is thought to be superior, (i think) he's saying that people are reguarding the middle easterners themselves (as people) being inferior :2thumbsup: