Shall the Egyptians ever develop Egypt ?

That sounds like a good battle too. It reminds me of desperate defenses against Vikings in VI. Using your heirless king to repeatedly charge elite Viking units until he's almost exhausted and reduced to an army of one gets the blood flowing. I'm sure everyone has been there when playing VI.

I imagine that taking the Egyptians against heavy infantry is tough. Even if they do tech up Egypt they still have a lot of soft units. Their version of heavy axe-wielding troops are no match for VG in less they fight in the desert. I used to love taking the Turks against them before VI as they had loads of peasants that I used to valor-up my THAs.

That's exactly what it was like, on of those pointless VI battles where despite your numbers you know that none of your units can kill off a unit of super valoured Huscarles.

Back to topic: The situation with Egypt is a strange one. I have also noticed that Egypt is never well developed by the AI. Mamluk Cavalry need the Horse Breeder and the High Era, nothing more. So as soon as the Egyptians have built the Horse Breeder which only requires the fort, it should be job done, and they should get on with developing it for trade and farm income, as well as teching up it's civil and military infrastructure. It is not a rebellious province so revolts and sieges wrecking the infrastructure isn't the issue. In some cases it may be invasions that have caused this. Though the Almohads don't often invade Egypt From Cyrenacia. Playing as the Almohads myself I have maintained peace with the Egyptians and never noticed any invasions of Egypt, yet the province doesn't get developed. They do develop their other provinces though, and I think that's the key. It may be that they are wasting money developing the Sinai to produce the Mamluk Horse Archers which require a bowyers guild and horse breeders guild. The latter is not a problem but the former will require a castle. The AI will probably also be splashing out on the farming upgrades, traders and other buildings in Antioch, Tripoli, Palestine and Arabia (in which I've seen it build 80% farmland on occasions! :dizzy2:). Then it will be busy training what it can. From my experience I think that in the case of the Egyptians the AI bankrupts itself very quickly. It is a useless trader and those provinces are the trade hub. Without this vital income they are soon in the red.

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Originally Posted by Caravel

The AI will probably also be splashing out on the farming upgrades, traders and other buildings in Antioch, Tripoli, Palestine and Arabia (in which I've seen it build 80% farmland on occasions! :dizzy2:).

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80% farmland in Arabia?? That's ridiculous. Unless I'm playing your Pocket Mod, that province isn't worth a heap of camel dung. :wall:

A pity the AI wasn't programmed to not build farm upgrades where the province's base income was below a certain amount. I could understand an exception being made for the 20% upgrade - as it's a prequisite for the Horse Farmer - but after that, the AI should really stop building any further farm upgrades in provinces with an income of around 250 florins or less.

It makes sense in a way, and I've seen it alot. It's not good for anything else so the AI does it. I usually do it because I do anything I can to make a florin.

I understand where you're coming from, Vladimir, but it still doesn't really make sense to build farm upgrades in low-income provinces like Arabia, Norway, etc. To take Arabia as an example:

Arabia's base income: 44 florins/year
20% farm upgrade: 300 florins
Arabia's income after farm upgrade: 53 florins/year (rounded up from 52.8)

At those numbers, it would take about 34 years before the 20% farm upgrade paid for itself and finally started to make money. Granted, a good governor could cut down that time by 5-10 years; but either way, it would still be a while before your investment started to pay off. (Not to mention which, you'd probably never waste a decent governor on provinces like Arabia anyway.)

And that's just the first upgrade! Subsequent farm upgrades would take far longer to pay for themselves, and would simply not be worth the time and money invested into them. Provinces like Flanders, Jerusalem, etc., are a different story, of course; but in my experience, upgrades of 40% or higher should only be built in provinces where the income is at least 300 florins or better - 400 florins for the 60-80% upgrades.

This is especially true in the beginning of the game when I have limited funds. I can always throw money into farm upgrades for lesser provinces later on once my campaign really gets going (and my treasury isn't so meager), but even then I carefully consider where my cash is best spent.

The most you'll get out of Arabia with an 80% farmland is around 150 florins per year with a good governor of about 6 accumen or more. The expense involved just isn't worth it. There are better ways to make (more) money. One would hope that the AI wouldn't bother developing such a province and would instead concentrate on the fertile crescent. The AI could only realistically afford to do this if it were already stinking rich and had conquered half the map. Egypt, with the same 80% upgrade, no trader built, makes around 1300 florins with the same sort of governor.

All the above expert comments on developing Arabia are on the mark, apart for one thing. Arabia can be the ideal province for either Egyptians, Almohads or Turks to start a Jihad.

I love Arabia for this reason, and I never neglect its development if I play any of the above factions.

Provided you install a good (pious) Governor, develop the province and whip up its Zeal to over 50%, Arabia is a good starting point for Jihads in any direction, be it Castile, Khazar or Constantinople. As it builds up through the neighbouring privinces, the Jihad's troop yield is usually very good; apart from the inevitable crappy camels you can acquire (or add) mouthwatering units like Nizaris, Turcoman Horse and/or various Heavy Cav in your Jihad.
Inshallah! :sultan:

That's a good idea. Maybe Arabia should have a huge zeal boost because of M&M.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

All the above expert comments on developing Arabia are on the mark, apart for one thing. Arabia can be the ideal province for either Egyptians, Almohads or Turks to start a Jihad.

I love Arabia for this reason, and I never neglect its development if I play any of the above factions.

Provided you install a good (pious) Governor, develop the province and whip up its Zeal to over 50%, Arabia is a good starting point for Jihads in any direction, be it Castile, Khazar or Constantinople. As it builds up through the neighbouring privinces, the Jihad's troop yield is usually very good; apart from the inevitable crappy camels you can acquire (or add) mouthwatering units like Nizaris, Turcoman Horse and/or various Heavy Cav in your Jihad.
Inshallah! :sultan:

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I can't deny that that's true. In fact, I used to build my Grand Mosque in Arabia back when I first got the game -- it seemed only appropriate, since it's Islam's geographical heart, after all. It was only later that I realized it would be more effective to build the GM in Egypt or Syria! ~:doh:

Still, its religous significance aside, I find Arabia's strategic value to be almost nil. It's only since I've started playing Caravel's Pocket Mod that it's finally become worth holding onto. (Gotta love the bonus to both Arab Infantry and Bedouin Camel Warriors!) :yes:

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Originally Posted by Martok

(Gotta love the bonus to both Arab Infantry and Bedouin Camel Warriors!) :yes:

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You really are into Chamels, Oliphants and other exotic transport, aren't you? :mellow:

Never mind the bonus. I consider Bedouin Camels a penalty.
As such.
In and of themselves. :stare:

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

You really are into Chamels, Oliphants and other exotic transport, aren't you? :mellow:

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Given my custom title, I think you alredy know the answer. ~D

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Never mind the bonus. I consider Bedouin Camels a penalty.
As such.
In and of themselves. :stare:

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That's all right Adrian; no one's perfect. I forgive you anyway. ~;p