Valor One Tournament

Well I dont know about if Byz will be invincible but of course val 1 varang will be a strong unit add pronois and alans for cav and yes they look strong.

A simple solution could be to say that each player in the same team must use diffrent factions. I.E. a team of four players must use 4 diffrent factions.

Almohads are a bigger problem though, with val 1 they cant even reach 8000 if not going way passed the 4 unit of same sort and russians might have the same problem. Egypt and turks on the other hand I think can field very good armies as always :)

Kalle

Only byz would be indeed boring :laugh4: Maybe we should thinking over the rules. valour 1 anti cav is too weak too in my opinion.

In my opinion there is absolutely nothing wrong with only Byz.:yes:

Why not try 7-8k without any valour limitations? It might result in a rather interesting balance.

V1 is really interesting. Otherwise it will be cwc again. I prefer to try out the new rules (all v1).

Thought I might just add that rather than use a specific valour upgrade level, you could potentially use a maximum valour upgrade differential. This could be set at 0, 1/2, 1 etc, although 1/2 might be quite interesting. Note that weapon and armour upgrades are counted as 1/2 valour upgrades. For instance a V2 CMAA and a V0 CK have a V2 difference. If it is required to keep the CMAA at V2 then the CK must be bumped up to at least V1(w1 or a1), although it could go to V2 or V2(w1 or a1), assuming a 1/2 valour upgrade differential.

The valour upgrade difference is calculated as the maximum valour upgrade level of all units minus the minimum valour upgrade level of all units.

The v1 is just to get the morale up. The game actually works at v0 5k, but the morale is so low that there is a lot of routing, and later in the battle you end up with a lot of exhausted units scattered over the map that can't run anymore and re-rout when they get close to an enemy unit. Maybe playing at less than 8k would help the factions that can't spend 8k at all v1.

Spears and halberdiers will be a bit touchy at v1 because of their relatively low morale, but if you let them go to v2 then they are too expensive relative to the other units. The only way to really fix MTW/VI is to modify it.

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Originally Posted by |Heerbann|_Luculus

V1 is really interesting. Otherwise it will be cwc again. I prefer to try out the new rules (all v1).

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i agree.

one faction max per team is not a bad idea, but im easy.~:) although that might create: byz, egypt, turks, xxxx vs byz, egypt, turks, xxxx.. so nothing would be solved. tomi-sama?

Hey Guys i think having val 1 for all units with no upgrades would be a bit 2D with everyone basicly having the same armys, so i think if all units must have val1 then we must have free upgrades to liven things up a bit and would make it much more interesting imo.

what do u think ?:juggle2:


-AggonyLion{Leo}

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Originally Posted by AggonyLion

Hey Guys i think having val 1 for all units with no upgrades would be a bit 2D with everyone basicly having the same armys, so i think if all units must have val1 then we must have free upgrades to liven things up a bit and would make it much more interesting imo.

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I posted the armies I took in two all v1 battles. They aren't 2D. I had all 4 components: range, sword, spear and cav, in my army. If you allow upgraded swords, then the spears don't stand a chance. Upgrading ranged units is bad because they get a discount on upgrades and it turns them into melee units. Upgraded spears are too expensive.

You have 100 units to choose from in MTW/VI. How can it be boring with that many units from which to choose, and why shouldn't a player know what unit beat what before he sends his units in to attack? How do you know what matchups to make if you don't know what beats what?

I think whoever uses their units better should win not whoever makes the most cost effective upgrades.

Well the one faction max per team won't really fix the problems caused by the Valour One only rule. As it is there are some factions which will be picked over others. I don't think we will be seeing any of the Chiv Knight equalents in army selections, mostly due to their very high price.

Without faction limits the Byz will be picked my most players, just due to the fact that these rules give them the best unit line up. The muslims and Russians suffer with these rules, due to the fact that their units need the additional upgrades to be competitive and I don't think we will see a lot of them. As for the catholics, well Feudal Knights will most likely be the mainstay unit with CMAA in support. I believe people will be avoiding the spears as normal due to their ineffectiveness and look for proper supporting cav instead. The problem is that there is a lack of good supporting cavalry for most catholic factions, with the Polish Retainers, Teutonic Sergeants and the Szekely propably being the best choices.

I'd say that with the current rules, these five factions will be the most used:

-Byzantines (superb unit lineup for these rules)
-Polish (one of the two catholic factions with a decent medium cav to support the feudals)
-Germans (the same as with Poland)
-England (longbows and templars, need I say more?)
-Hungarians (Szekely is a decent supporting unit)




Personally I'd favour scrapping the whole valour one idea and instead just set the florin level at 7-8k, preferably 7k. This will allow for a greater faction/unit selection, while still also keeping the morale level lower. I think we have a good example from the KoV tournament, where most players where upgrading their CMAA with weapons. This shows that there is a tendency to strive for stronger infantry over strong cavalry, and I believe we should try to sate that desire. It will most likely be enjoyable for all of us.

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Originally Posted by AggonyDuck

Personally I'd favour scrapping the whole valour one idea and instead just set the florin level at 7-8k, preferably 7k. This will allow for a greater faction/unit selection, while still also keeping the morale level lower. I think we have a good example from the KoV tournament, where most players where upgrading their CMAA with weapons. This shows that there is a tendency to strive for stronger infantry over strong cavalry, and I believe we should try to sate that desire. It will most likely be enjoyable for all of us.

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They upgrade the swords so that they can beat cavalry. That's just plain wrong from a gameplay perspective. It's the upgrades that caused the gameplay to deteriorate into 2 components: cav/swords. Playing at 7k doesn't fix it because the RPS breaks at 6k when using upgrades.

I'm less concerned with what factions are viable than I am with achieving a 4 component gameplay. However, maybe that's not achievable in MTW/VI which is actually why I stopped playing it. Two component gameplay is of no interest to me.

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

I posted the armies I took in two all v1 battles. They aren't 2D. I had all 4 components: range, sword, spear and cav, in my army. If you allow upgraded swords, then the spears don't stand a chance. Upgrading ranged units is bad because they get a discount on upgrades and it turns them into melee units. Upgraded spears are too expensive.

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Now try the same with one of you taking the Byzantines. If the Byz knows what he is doing, he will win. About valour 1 rules; I don't think you will see spears in this tournament. It is far easier to just buy cavalry instead, because as we all know, spears are not cost-efficient. Either way VI has always been about infantry and cavalry, not swords-spears-cavalry and to be honest, I think it works better that way.

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You have 100 units to choose from in MTW/VI. How can it be boring with that many units from which to choose, and why shouldn't a player know what unit beat what before he sends his units in to attack? How do you know what matchups to make if you don't know what beats what?

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Because the valour one rule actually cuts down the truly useful units. Many units need the upgrades to actually be effective unit choices and without the upgrades they will just sink into the pit of uselessness.

As to unit matchups; I have never had any problems of knowing what beats what and I believe most of us VI regulars do not suffer from that problem either. So I'd be surprised if you actually suffer from that problem Yuuki.

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I think whoever uses their units better should win not whoever makes the most cost effective upgrades.

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Cost effectiveness has always been a factor in the game, with or without upgrades. The Valour One rule does not reduce its role in the game. It is still there in the background as it always has been.

As to he who uses his units better winning, I've always found that to be the case in VI 10k. Army selection alone will never win a game, although it might be beneficial at times. It always comes down to how the units are used, especially in team games.

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

They upgrade the swords so that they can beat cavalry. That's just plain wrong from a gameplay perspective. It's the upgrades that caused the gameplay to deteriorate into 2 components: cav/swords. Playing at 7k doesn't fix it because the RPS breaks at 6k when using upgrades.

I'm less concerned with what factions are viable than I am with achieving a 4 component gameplay. However, maybe that's not achievable in MTW/VI which is actually why I stopped playing it. Two component gameplay is of no interest to me.

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Well you won't be fixing the RPS with any Valour 1 rules. Only a stat redesign will fix it. For example in the KoV tournament an spear/halberd was a rarity. But as it is I find the two component gameplay to be highly enjoyable and possess a surprising depth. The RPS-based balance really isn't needed in VI. VI already has a balance revolving around the different strengths of infantry and cavalry, which works superbly.
If I ever need to play decent RPS-based gameplay, I'll turn to SamWars.

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Originally Posted by AggonyDuck

Now try the same with one of you taking the Byzantines. If the Byz knows what he is doing, he will win. About valour 1 rules; I don't think you will see spears in this tournament. It is far easier to just buy cavalry instead, because as we all know, spears are not cost-efficient. Either way VI has always been about infantry and cavalry, not swords-spears-cavalry and to be honest, I think it works better that way.

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I have no interest in 2 component gameplay and rules that enhance such gameplay, so I'm out. If Byz is such a big problem in all v1, then it could be banned.

Ok, lets up the skill level.

Take any Faction you want.

Build an army for 5k or less.

But you can only use one each of any unit type.

All units at Valour one, with no other upgrades.

Any takers?

:egypt:

P.S. This could be the most interesting Total War tournament there ever was :yes:

You will be needing VIArmyBuilderPlus, if you don’t already have it.

http://www.clanwarscomp.org/tools/VIArmyBuilderPlus.zip

Note: This tool is only reasonably accurate, but good enough to work up your initial troop line up ideas.

:charge:

Logfiles will be required to verify each win is legitimate.

*whispers from the shadows:* Or you could try CBR's community mod.

Or we could use the samwars mod, that would be nice I think.

Kalle

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Originally Posted by Kalle

Or we could use the samwars mod, that would be nice I think.

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The tourney is for people playing VI. The all v1 makes cavalry more expensive which should help make spears a more viable choice, and should ensure that swords don't beat cav which I thought would be a good thing for the gameplay. I'm not claiming it's perfect, but I took 2 orderfoot in both my games vs CBR, and I did ok.

I'll try playing against Byz with CBR. Some of the weaker factions like the Russians can still be useful for finesse strategy. A 4 man team can afford to have 1 finesse player in the lineup. You just can't adopt a strategy where the 4 armies line up opposite the enemy's 4 armies and slug it out. You could also help the weaker factions by reducing the money per player to something less than 8k.

I don't know about max 1 of each unit type. I personally think that's too drastic a change. This tourney could be a test to see if all v1 provides anything new to the playbalance. According to Ducky it will be bad, but he's also stated his preference for the standard 10k MTW/VI cav/sword gameplay. For the record, CBR also thinks all v1 won't be all that good either. Players could try the all v1 in some test battles to see what they think.

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

I'm less concerned with what factions are viable than I am with achieving a 4 component gameplay. However, maybe that's not achievable in MTW/VI which is actually why I stopped playing it. Two component gameplay is of no interest to me.

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With all due respected mate :embarassed: i have not been in TW online as long as u but i (we) never left Vi why? because we love it for what it is, and theres no point in u saying u left it because u dont like the game play so why come back and tell the rest of us what rules we "should" use and then mone when we have a good idea, does not make sence to me. :inquisitive:

I mean no offence Puzz:oops: just they way it seems to me.

What do the rest of u think ??


-AggonyLion{Leo}

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Originally Posted by AggonyLion

With all due respected mate :embarassed: i have not been in TW online as long as u but i (we) never left Vi why? because we love it for what it is, and theres no point in u saying u left it because u dont like the game play so why come back and tell the rest of us what rules we "should" use and then mone when we have a good idea, does not make sence to me. :inquisitive:

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I didn't make the rule. Tomi made the all v1 rule, and I started gathering a team based on that. I've now told the people I was gathering for the tournamnt to forget about it since it's obvious that most of the players want the inferior 2 component gameplay.

I'm not downloading any mod, I don't have the connection for it.

Perhaps playing at 7k instead would be a better idea?

I kind of like the Val 1 Rule i would just like to see upgrades aloud, or we may as well be in early or ban chiv knights thats all

Mind u having Val 1 and Val 0 would be great also :yes:


-AggonyLion{Leo}

well after reading all comments above, i dont know wot to say, maybe only 2 unit of heavy cav each? lower the florins ? gah:help:

I think all val 1 is just fine, so what if armies become slightly similar, you can trust the community to add variation to the games, - its in danger of becoming far too complicated....

:2thumbsup:

I'd personally favour a simple 7k high era tournament. It would mean that each player would have 437.5 florins per unit, which would put the units used between 200-900 florins in cost. I believe we would have a highly enjoyable game at those florin levels. It should give us a nice relation between infantry and cavalry. Anyway I suggest we try it tomorrow.

As to your suggestion Tomi, I tried it and it is interesting to a degree, but I'm not sure if I'd enjoy playing with such armies. Anyway as always in the end we will play what you ultimately decide to be for the best, but until your final decision I'll be lobbying just a simple 7k tournament.:yes:

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Originally Posted by AggonyDuck

I'd personally favour a simple 7k high era tournament. It would mean that each player would have 437.5 florins per unit, which would put the units used between 200-900 florins in cost. I believe we would have a highly enjoyable game at those florin levels. It should give us a nice relation between infantry and cavalry. Anyway I suggest we try it tomorrow.

but until your final decision I'll be lobbying just a simple 7k tournament.:yes:

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Yeah sounds Good :beam:

Seven is very doable :yes:

Valour one at 7k with no upgrades, levels the field for a good contest, and still leaves many choices open.

Any limitations on Factions can be argued between Team Leaders when they set the date and time for their Match.

Going to try to have at least a Sigh Up forum and Rules up by Saturday afternoon, and can probably assign Matches and have negotiations started by next weekend, depending on how quick we can get everybody in.

Will be posting the link very soon.

If you know of any Clans that might be interested, please post their name, and link too if you can. As soon as the message board is ready, I will go a visiting :wink:

Allrighty then lets go!!!

I hope you bring your team back in Yuukie and I hope to see many other clans and players!!

Will it be knockout style or every team has to face every team or we split into groups (not that I think we will be enough teams for very many groups)

Kalle

how bout a round robin torny, with all teams play eachother maybe twice, and the top 2 go to final

We tried 7k all val 1 yesterday. Nothing wrong with it, very funny it was :egypt:

/Kalle