Re: America,The Superpower, The Economy and The Shirking Middle Class
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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
:flowers: How's that?
That, my friend, is so hot, that it will make Dave ruin his fishnets. ~;)
Re: America,The Superpower, The Economy and The Shirking Middle Class
*looks cocked eyed at you* :help:
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The "science" of economics failed in Iraq. A wide-open market with no existing structure and absolutely no regualtions should have led to the greatest economic explosion in the history of mankind, right? Well, it led to an explosion alright, but not quite the kind that the neo-con economic theorists had promised.
What? This would be laissez faire capitalism. Very few, if any economists, see this is a good thing. I have no idea where you pulled this from.
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Economics has also been wrong about the minimum wage. We keep on raising it, and unemployment remains low.
You have oversimplied a very complex problem. Economists never claim that unemployment will raise drastically, they state that lower income people will be put out of work. Refer the minimum wage thread I started before.
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Perhaps it is going a little far to say that the study of economics is completely useless, but it has recorded a few spectacular failures in the past and its conventional conclusions are more often used as mantras than as relevant facts. It is a study which seems to promote a very limited world view, and which seems more interested in making policy than advising it.
Again, what?
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People who study economics will say things like: "If FDR had done absolutely nothing to soften the effects of the Depression, and just let the economy bottom out and thousands more people starve, then there would have been a rapid turn-around and we would have been out of it within a year."
I know you aren't a moron, but I sincerely hope you have a difficult time with English, because that is a ridiculous statement to make. First of all, most economists think FDR did many wrong things that pro longed the depression.
They don't advocate not doing anything at all.
Second of all, economists come in all political ideologies. Sorry to burst your delusional bubble, but all economics isn't a conservative science at all.
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And people who study economics will say things like: "Trade-deficit, schmade-deficit. It'll all work out, and everyone will come out on top!" It will all work out, and stateless corporations will come out on top, and the US will eventually suffer some sort of correction that will probably be bigger than it has to be. So thanks for nothing.
Again, what the ****! Seriously man, I don't usually get his mad, but this statement is ignorant to the max. You know absolutely NOTHING about economics or economic theory.
Economists don't worry about the trade deficit for various reasons. I'd post some links to explain, but that would just be... how did you put it... "'Business' Literature"? What a joke. Try knowing what you are talking about next time.
Re: America,The Superpower, The Economy and The Shirking Middle Class
First off I have said its mainly great for the nations, shareholders and consumers... not the employees... except for the highly motivated ones.
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Originally Posted by Blodrast
As for adapting, and improving, that's pretty easy talk when you're in your twenties or thirties. Try competing with a fresh spiffy college grad when you're 50 or so. We'll see who wins in flexibility and adaptability...
But I guess you don't need to live or have a job after you're 50, right ?
And, to clarify my stance, no, I haven't lost my job because of outsourcing, or anything of the sort.
My dad who is sixty this year... just quit his job because of the way they treated another contractor. He's taken a $3 an hour pay cut and moved on... he is extraordinarily highly motivated like my brothers (I'm the black sheep :shame: ) and still adapting and improving his abilities.
Re: America,The Superpower, The Economy and The Shirking Middle Class
Ice: What ? Dave is the usual recipient of BG's daisies, and I think that bouquet is gonna make him really really jealous, that's all. Besides, I'll tell you a secret, I don't think they are his stockings anyway.
Pape: Kudos to your father, and your brothers. I know very few people around that age who, if they were put in that situation, would be able or even willing to try and improve/adapt. And I wouldn't give them good odds, either.
I will also admit that, as much as I know myself, I won't be able to do that either. That's another reason why I admire people who can do that. But I'm afraid they're the exceptions, rather than the rule, Pape - at least according to the people I've known.
Re: America,The Superpower, The Economy and The Shirking Middle Class
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- If we're outsourcing the white-collars, who exactly remains here to DO the actual innovation that they talk about as being the most important thing (and the only one that US is gonna remain the top dog for) ?
Innovation, as in research-derived innovation right ? The same research that is being outsourced, as well, to China and India, for example ?
Every single job isn't being outsourced. There are still people here with the ability to do that.
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- college-grads have jobs - great, but see above: what kind of jobs ? The article doesn't specify that. I know of programmers who work waiting tables; they have jobs, sure enough; is that the best society can get out of them ? Think what you will.
The burden of proof is on you to show this. I'm seeing the unemployment number is low and I'll go with those numbers. I have no reason to believe otherwise.
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I'm sorry, I read it, but failed to understand how exactly innovations will keep creating jobs at the same pace that jobs are being outsourced. Are we "innovating" like crazy and I'm just not aware of it ? Must be, I guess...
They don't have to. I never claimed that jobs were being replaced at the same number as they were being outsourced.
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As for the innovators... as I pointed out, with some figures, in the similar thread we discussed a while ago, it is research, and the innovators, that are being outsourced as well. I mentioned there IBM, Intel, research centers opening in China, India...
Sorry to sound arrogant, but I believe the we can still do a better job. All this does is create more competition causing people to work harder.
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Creation of new jobs ? Let's see, Intel fired 9500 people, they froze hiring, are running like crazy after interns, and will open research lab in South Asia. Yup, plenty of new jobs created at home, clearly.
And don't tell me those jobs are not needed, because if they weren't, they wouldn't hire interns at the crazy pace that they are.
That's one example, my friend.
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As for adapting, and improving, that's pretty easy talk when you're in your twenties or thirties. Try competing with a fresh spiffy college grad when you're 50 or so. We'll see who wins in flexibility and adaptability...
But I guess you don't need to live or have a job after you're 50, right ?
Plan for a rainy day. Be a harder worker. As long as you are a harder worker, you have nothing to fear. Don't get lazy. You don't have to be a young buck to be employed.
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And, to clarify my stance, no, I haven't lost my job because of outsourcing, or anything of the sort.
I thought nothing of the sort.~:)
Re: America,The Superpower, The Economy and The Shirking Middle Class
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Originally Posted by Blodrast
Ice: .
That wasn't directed at you, but at the poster I quoted.
Re: America,The Superpower, The Economy and The Shirking Middle Class
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Originally Posted by Blodrast
That, my friend, is so hot, that it will make Dave ruin his fishnets. ~;)
Don't worry, I've got some thick panties on!!!
Re: America,The Superpower, The Economy and The Shirking Middle Class
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Originally Posted by Ice
Plan for a rainy day. Be a harder worker. As long as you are a harder worker, you have nothing to fear. Don't get lazy. You don't have to be a young buck to be employed.
Yes, older men approaching their sixties should certainly work harder than young men because their physical strength is at it's highest peak and ehh...
Many companies here just don't take old men anymore because they can just as well get a young man who may lack some experience, but gives them room to improve and can stay with them for much longer, plus he is likely to be sick less often and has usually more physical strength(and may demand less money as a starter).
Re: America,The Superpower, The Economy and The Shirking Middle Class
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Originally Posted by Husar
Yes, older men approaching their sixties should certainly work harder than young men because their physical strength is at it's highest peak and ehh...
Many companies here just don't take old men anymore because they can just as well get a young man who may lack some experience, but gives them room to improve and can stay with them for much longer, plus he is likely to be sick less often and has usually more physical strength(and may demand less money as a starter).
Id say part of the problem here (in belgium at least) is the diea that people should get payed more as they get older, while doing the same job (and have about the same productivity). I think that's part of the reason at least why so many people in their 50s are 'retired'.
Another reason is probably that a lot of them are filthy rich because they planned for a rainy day and wat to have some fun beofre they're too old :laugh4:
Re: America,The Superpower, The Economy and The Shirking Middle Class
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Originally Posted by Husar
Yes, older men approaching their sixties should certainly work harder than young men because their physical strength is at it's highest peak and ehh...
Many companies here just don't take old men anymore because they can just as well get a young man who may lack some experience, but gives them room to improve and can stay with them for much longer, plus he is likely to be sick less often and has usually more physical strength(and may demand less money as a starter).
All you can do is try. Besides, when you are that age, you should be planning for your retirement soon.
Re: America,The Superpower, The Economy and The Shirking Middle Class
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Originally Posted by Ice
All you can do is try. Besides, when you are that age, you should be planning for your retirement soon.
What's the prognosis for pensions over in the US? Do you have any state pension system?
Over here, the pensions "timebomb" is, or ought to be, exercising a great deal of concern. There is almost no chance of many European governments being able to pay the pensions of people my age, let alone some of the whippersnappers here. Many people are going to have to work far beyond the currently accepted retirement age.
It's not even much fun if you have planned. I invested in a private pension at an early age, with a British mutual company that had been the most respected and successful pension handler since 1789 (or something close). British friends will wince when I say: The Equitable Life.
In short, a bunch of charlatans got control of this eminent and incredibly conservative organisation and went on a bonus spree, telling porkies about performance and signing new members up to a scheme they couldn't possibly pay out on. Got found out, went bust - and the Ghost's pension became ephemeral.
Now, I'm really lucky because I have some independent wealth, an army pension and write for living - which I can do until I'm senile. (Stop tittering at the back, this isn't senility, it's outrage).
Without those things, I'd have to look forward to an old age stacking supermarket shelves and wearing fifteen sweaters to keep warm - despite having worked hard and saved long.
And no government I can see is making it more attractive to keep older people in work.
*feels the absence of an oldie-shaking-stick-smilie*
