Winning Liberal support for the Iraqi Government

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Originally Posted by Agent Miles

Gee Tribesman, I’m not feeling the love in your opinionated post. Careful, you’ll be labeled as abrasive. I stick to my statement, that if a million Iraqis (less than 4% of the country) demonstrated against U.S. involvement, then we would be gone. But, they haven’t. De Gaulle’s party was also openly against U.S. forces being in France. When he finally asked us to remove them, we did. The same option is open to the Iraqi government. I doubt if the terrorists will leave under these conditions.
The former commander of coalition forces in Iraq stated that 14 of the 16 military provinces in Iraq are making progress. Infrastructure is being rebuilt and life is continuing. Just as IRA bombers did not destroy life in every city in Northern Ireland, nor Hamas bombers in every nook and cranny of Israel, so the anarchists in Iraq have not destroyed life in that country.
The democratic nation of Iraq will get the laugh last, sir.

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Well Agent miles I half agree. There is absolutely progress happening in Iraq, it just dosent make for good arguments or sell commercials so we dont hear about it.

As far as the 1 million protest thing, i dont think there is any question the majority want us out of there, and frankly I think we should oblige them. Will it lead to a civil war or a broader war within Islam? Maybe, but I think the U.S. should take a dose of humility step away and remove ourselves from this particular stage (as much as possible).

Lets let someone else pick up the ball on this, since there is no shortage of opinion on what to do better, lets let somone else do it. And when the inveitable no win situation comes around to the U.S. via the argument "You created this mess" we should act with absolute humility and say, "yep" and shrug.

Time to move on from the world stage as far as I am concerned, we have or nose in far to much business, lets let everyone else have a go and we pull back and secure the home land, with acknowledgement that we made a mistake in Iraq.

this policy enables us an exit to a major problem, and a potential gain in prestige from exhibiting humility. On top of that we strengthen our military position by redeploying forces to our own homeland and we allow critics to have thier own go at the middle east and its vast issues.

The only loosing proposition is Bush's inability to show some humility, the rest is a net gain for the U.S. Enough adventures overseas, let someone elese do it, more and more I find myself advocating a more isolationist/unilateral US policy.

Interesting, and possibly relevant comment from a Senator speaking in February of 2003, just before the invasion.

What is particularly worrisome is how naively the idea of establishing a perfect democracy in Iraq is being tossed around by this Administration. If the Administration engages in such a massive undertaking without the American people understanding the real costs and long-term commitment that will be required to achieve this bucolic vision, our efforts in Iraq could end with chaos in the region. Chaos, poverty, hopelessness, hatred - - that's exactly the kind of environment that becomes a fertile breeding ground for terrorists.

The Administration is asking the American public and the international community to support this war. The Administration must also put all of its cards on the table. A list of real risks and downsides do the nation no good locked in Donald Rumsfeld's desk drawer. They must be brought into the sunshine for the people to assess.

The American people are willing to embrace a cause when they judge it to be noble and both its risks and its benefits are explained honestly to them. But if information is withheld, long-term political support can never be sustained.

Odin, doing nothing, no matter how nobley, will only accomplish nothing. Did Chamberlain tell this to the Czech's? Do you believe that UBL thinks that he will gain any respect by losing Iraq?

Lemur, a lot of us knew exactly what this war would take. Senator Byrd is good at misrepresenting things. Isn't that what he did in the KKK?

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Originally Posted by Agent Miles

Odin, doing nothing, no matter how nobley, will only accomplish nothing. Did Chamberlain tell this to the Czech's?

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W00t!11oneone! Now where's that post I made, where I said any thread will eventually involve a comparison with the Greatest Generation and all that (the comparison's purpose being to shut someone up, not to provoke actual discussion). IIRC I called it the Pannonian variant of Godwin or something, and I got flamed for it.

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Originally Posted by Agent Miles

Odin, doing nothing, no matter how nobley, will only accomplish nothing. Did Chamberlain tell this to the Czech's? Do you believe that UBL thinks that he will gain any respect by losing Iraq?

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I didnt say do nothing, I personally lean more towards an isolationist/unilateral foriegn policy. If it is in our intrest to act we should bring the full weight of our resoruces to bare.

I do not believe Iraq is in the U.S. intrest any longer. Just the opposite really, the sooner we leave the sooner those directly involved can determine thier own destiny, and it will allow prior critics to employ thier plan of action (which i eagerly anticipate).

Pannonian-Let me know what you are talking about.

Odin-Dude, must I type in braille? Give a :daisy:. The U.S. doesn't have perfect leaders, perfect politicians or perfect armies to prosecute perfect conflicts. Real people in real trouble need someone to act. Yes, self-interests are involved. Once we are done shooting the bad guys in Iraq, we can always line up our own bad guys and drill them. Take the anti-freeze out of your blood and get totally urinated as hades. It works for me.

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Originally Posted by Agent Miles

Odin-Dude, must I type in braille? Give a :daisy:. The U.S. doesn't have perfect leaders, perfect politicians or perfect armies to prosecute perfect conflicts. Real people in real trouble need someone to act. Yes, self-interests are involved. Once we are done shooting the bad guys in Iraq, we can always line up our own bad guys and drill them. Take the anti-freeze out of your blood and get totally urinated as hades. It works for me.

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Nah miles Im not with you on this one, its time to let someone else take the lead. i prefer a much more reserved foriegn policy that makes the U.S. the top priority for our government and international politics that dont pose an immediate threat a very distant side show

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W00t!11oneone! Now where's that post I made, where I said any thread will eventually involve a comparison with the Greatest Generation and all that (the comparison's purpose being to shut someone up, not to provoke actual discussion). IIRC I called it the Pannonian variant of Godwin or something, and I got flamed for it.

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:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Hey its not that bad , it made it to page 2 , it was managed on page 1 in the other current Iraq topic:2thumbsup:

Odin-It is said that 'cooler minds should prevail'. Perhaps this is the case.
I just hope that sons and daughters aren't buried for what we don't do.

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Originally Posted by Agent Miles

Odin-It is said that 'cooler minds should prevail'. Perhaps this is the case.
I just hope that sons and daughters aren't buried for what we don't do.

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Fair enough, i guess its the "what we dont do" part we disagree on, id be just as happy having the 150k troops in iraq on detail in our ports checking containers.

It seems you're still in stage 2, Miles. I'm leaning toward stage 3.

The Five Stages of Neocon Grief

1. Denial: "The media doesn't show the good news in Iraq."

2. Anger: "The treasonous far-left-liberals and their media lapdogs are making us lose in Iraq."

3. Bargaining: "If we send x-thousand more troops to Iraq, victory will be ours."

4. Depression: "Did you catch 300 yet? [munch-munch-burp] God, it made me hate liberals even more. [channels flipping] They wouldn't last a day in ancient Sparta."

5. Advanced Literary Theory: "The hegemonic binary of 'success' and 'failure' traumatizes the (re)interpretive possibilities of an ethos of jouissance regarding the War in Iraq."

Cheney is still at stage 1 denial , yesterday he trotted out the now thoroughly laughable Saddam-Al Qaida-9/11 tripe in a speech:dizzy2:

If you read the transcript, you'll see that Cheney believes in a Middle East permanently occupied by American forces, because any withdrawal anywhere means a victory for the terrorists everywhere. He seems to be saying that we made a horrible mistake by not staying in Afghanistan after the Russians left.

Remember what happened in Afghanistan. We'd been involved in Afghanistan in the eighties, supporting the Mujahideen against the Soviets and prevailed. We won. Everybody walked away, and in the nineties, Afghanistan became a safe haven for terrorists, an area for training camps where Al-Qaeda trained 20,000 terrorists in the late nineties, and the base from which they launched attacks on the United States on 9/11. So those are very real problems, and to advocate withdrawal from Iraq at this point, it seems to me, simply would play right into the hands of Al-Qaeda.

So what would be a reasonable condition for withdrawal from Iraq? I can't see any, using his reasoning. If there is even the slightest chance of "losing," we must stay. Indefinitely.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Hey its not that bad , it made it to page 2 , it was managed on page 1 in the other current Iraq topic:2thumbsup:

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IIRC my theory was that the twin foundations of the modern American mythos are the Greatest Generation and the Holocaust, and that any questioning of the jockworthiest line of thinking was to make one unworthy of one, and hence perpetuating the other, at which point the theory can switch to mainstream Godwin. Now compare with a couple of Agent Miles quotes.

Odin, doing nothing, no matter how nobley, will only accomplish nothing. Did Chamberlain tell this to the Czech's?

Now that this has been explored, the Hitler's of the world thank you.

I was a little hesitant in stereotyping the Great American Nation thus, but it seems I wasn't far wrong.