Israeli influence in U.S. - the big picture

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adrian II

I was aware of the load, and I am cramming away here. ~D

However, assorted pixels do not a big picture make. In the end it comes down to agent theories in international relations: who decides, who imposes choice on others, who's the dog and who's the tail?

---

You don't like him but the Chomster has a few good books on it, dunno if it is true given his apparent disposition, but 'rogue states' and 'faithfull triangle' are pretty good reads. Joe Sacco makes does it comic style, quite good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spino

One can take exception to Israel's actions but like all nations it is acting purely out of its own self interest. I can understand the animosity some people may have towards Israel, after all it's really bad form whenever an ally goes to such great lengths to spy upon and steal secrets from its biggest ally and benefactor. However the social darwinist in me firmly believes in the phrase, 'All's fair in love and war". Whatever delusions certain Jews may have about them being the 'chosen people' or whether they honestly believe they have a rightful claim to their ancestral lands is irrelevant. Combine the major events of the previous century with the fact that Israel is and you can see why that nation continues to operate purely out of survival instinct tempered with desperation. So while the thought of an ally stealing our national secrets does get my blood up I cannot blame them for doing so.

The real problem I have is with the inaction of my country in the face of such dishonest and dishonorable conduct. After all, who is sponsoring who? It is our government and citizens that should be held accountable when secrets are sold to foreign agents. It is our leaders that should be held accountable when they kowtow to nations who place unreasonable demands on us.

---

Anyone who questions the America-Israel narrative gets hit with anti-semitic accusations, which ties in to all the variants of Godwin. The variant I've described notes that the modern American mythos rests on the twin mythologies of the Greatest Generation and the Holocaust. These are the two most powerful arguments one can muster in the modern America, and the two are always linked. Patriotism for America must also mean patriotism for Israel, and any slackening in either means one is not worthy of the legacy of the Greatest Generation, and one is thus a Holocaust supporter. Go through the the Backroom archives, or the archives of any other forum for that matter, and you'll see any thread discussing US foreign affairs and/or Israel will inevitably result in the above argument being made.

In the light of the above, the easiest course to take is to just give in to the Israel lobby and do whatever they ask for. If one looks further back than the 20th century, this is exactly the kind of relationship with foreign states that outgoing president Washington was warning about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pannonian

In the light of the above, the easiest course to take is to just give in to the Israel lobby and do whatever they ask for. If one looks further back than the 20th century, this is exactly the kind of relationship with foreign states that outgoing president Washington was warning about.

---

I get your point. But exactly what kind is this relationship? That's what I want to know.

Originally Posted by Beirut
I heard a story about Israel trying to blackmail Eisenhower back in the 50s. They said they would make his adulterous excursions public if he didn't toe the Israeli line. He told them to stuff it. I'm off to Google this, but has anyone else heard about it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I've never heard of it. Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't. I dunno, I can't googlefind it either.

---

I can't find it either. But I do remember hearing the story years ago.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

It is a product of the cold war; of Jewish-American lobbying; the overrepresentation of persons loyal to Israel in the media, journalism, thinkthanks and the government; evangelical identification with Israel; protection of oil interests; and the somewhat naive believe in Israel as a sole western democracy in the Middle East that's struggling against the odds. Each of these factors has a long and intricate history of it's own, and I'm not sure I've got them all. So there you go, Adrian - homework for you! :beam:

---

Note: Emphasis added, was not this way in original.

Good post Luigi, but I think the words LOYAL TO inappropriate -- smacks too much of zionist conspiracy crap (which I don't believe you had in mind). I'd substitute "supportive of" in order to change the tenor of the point just a bit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

I think the words LOYAL TO inappropriate -- smacks too much of zionist conspiracy crap

---

Well I've been reading a lot of essays by the Institute for Historical Research lately...~;)

'Loyal' is'nt quite the right word, no. Looking back at it now, I might have substituted it for 'identifying with'.
The poor choice of words is owing to me doubting between saying 'Jews being overrepresented' or saying 'people identifying with Israel in general being overrepresented'. The former would be both incomplete because it omits non-Jews identifying with Israel and because it would include Jews not identifying with Israel. The latter is unprecise because it mixes up cause and result of Israeli influence.

Hmm, maybe I'll change it into 'Jews and others supportive of Israel'. Not perfect but good enough.


BTW - is your post entirely coincidental or are you alluding to that recent 'Jewish lobby' thread? If you are, I mean, I don't care, but I took great pains in that thread to state in every post that despite me taking issue with the anti-semitism of the source I was quite willing to otherwise engage in any conversation about Jewish/Israeli influence in U.S..
I even went against my principle not to debate Jews or Israel under the premise of a denial of the Holocaust, just to prevent the (false) assumption that negative aspects of Israel can not be discussed without the accusation of anti-Semitism.
I was willing to discuss any Jewish / Israeli lobby, without me accusing anybody of anti-Semitism. If anybody wanted too, I was right there. Others too. I wasn't the one that abandoned the subject.
If I were to say, 'I'm interested in discussing Americans. They all torture black babies. Please let's not throw accusations of anti-Americanism around', followed by a link to Al-Qaeda where Osama says Americans torture black babies, what would your reply be?
Would you for the sake of argument go along with it, and discuss america under this premise? Wouldn't your reply be something akin to what I posted, and kept posting: 'Sorry, your source about baby-torture is false and reeks of anti-Americanism, coming as it is from Osama, a person of well-known anti-American ideology. But other than that, I'm quite willing to discuss any aspect of America' ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

BTW - is your post entirely coincidental or are you alluding to that recent 'Jewish lobby' thread? If you are, I mean, I don't care, but I took great pains in that thread to state in every post that despite me taking issue with the anti-semitism of the source I was quite willing to otherwise engage in any conversation about Jewish/Israeli influence in U.S..
I even went against my principle not to debate Jews or Israel under the premise of a denial of the Holocaust, just to prevent the (false) assumption that negative aspects of Israel can not be discussed without the accusation of anti-Semitism.
I was willing to discuss any Jewish / Israeli lobby, without me accusing anybody of anti-Semitism. If anybody wanted too, I was right there. Others too. I wasn't the one that abandoned the subject.
If I were to say, 'I'm interested in discussing Americans. They all torture black babies. Please let's not throw accusations of anti-Americanism around', followed by a link to Al-Qaeda where Osama says Americans torture black babies, what would your reply be?

---

I think my post was coincidental.

I read and even posted in the Jewish Lobby thread, but did not throw anti-semite labels about -- didn't see a need. Bashing Israeli policy/actions is not, prima facie, an expression of anti-semitism. Sadly, some of the sources used by those in the thread were fairly "polarized" -- which can make for bad analysis if not used with a modicum of salt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Would you for the sake of argument go along with it, and discuss america under this premise? Wouldn't your reply be something akin to what I posted, and kept posting: 'Sorry, your source about baby-torture is false and reeks of anti-Americanism, coming as it is from Osama, a person of well-known anti-American ideology. But other than that, I'm quite willing to discuss any aspect of America' ?

---

Actually, I'd confirm whether you were using "baby torture" literally -- in which case I don't think there's a lot of support and would probably not respond -- or figuratively (as in denial of opportunity, cultural baggage preventing self-development) in which case there is the meat of a good argument/discussion to be explored.

George Soros has stepped into the fray , especially concerning the role of AIPAC .
What a silly bugger , he instantly gets labeled as a self-hating Jew and even got called Hitlerite:dizzy2:

lol @ the fat man :laugh4:


In any case it's probably that Israel indeed has America by the balls, as said earlier. Or there is some other group / entity (or more) that has America by the balls in a firm pressing grip, or both America and Israel.

What can I say? I don't like going too much into detail.

The special relationship is often expressed in Wisconsin by presidential candidates in front of Jewish audiences.

We then proceed to Imus them.