Re: Depicting Imperium in-game
Ok, I suppose I better leak a few more very hazy concepts regarding my thoughts on how Imperium could be represented (besides what I've given away in replies that is) and used in the game, for comment/elimination/ammendment/ignoring.
First point, and probably the most contraversial is a very substantial family tree. Yes, very substantial.
In my 'concept', characters provide the actual 'Roman Citizen Equites' elements of a legion so for a Consular army you'd need 3 characters- 1 Consul and 2 other 'Tribunes' plus their Equites (which could virtually be any other characters that weren't Consuls/Praetors etc for the year).
That's (now) one of the reason why it's important that the Consul is virtually the only character with Command stars.....otherwise he may end up not actually being in charge :no: . Now, this may have happened (depends on what fiction you read :yes: ) in actuality but it should, for obvious reasons, be pretty uncommon.....but not rare, if I can put it that way.
Also, all characters are considered to be characters who will join the Senate and in all likelihood hold the Consulship at some point in their career, unless they do something out of the ordinary. This is a derivative of RTWar afterall, let's worry about the Commanders, not the rest, whose existance can be roleplayed.
So how many would you need? Bloody good question. My initial thoughts were enough to fill Rome.....plus a few more :beam:
So you could have male children of the ages-0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14 and 15. These will be needed as the death rate, particulalry from old age in the early game may get out of hand, and also to keep the 'family' going because your level of conquest will in no way justify that many characters so you won't initially get any offers of adoption etc. You may even need to have 2 of each age group below adult hood, or a combination of both singles and doubles.....
Then you could have male adults of ages-16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30,32,34,36,38,40,42,44,46,48,50,52,54,56,58 and 60 perhaps. Enough to fill Rome and have 3 with the current Legions. I'm not too sure how quickly the older ones will die from old age so treat this purely as a 'blue print' for comment.
I feel the huge number of family members is necessary to allow for a reasonable spread of offices amongst characters. Whilst holding multiple Consulships was pretty 'common' in the Mid Republic, it may become too common with many less eligeable characters.
Oh, that's an important point. Despite my desire for both Consuls to be represented I think it may be goign too far as we only have 1/10th of the Senate represented, but am open to persuasion.
Ok, this being a very big and contraversial step I'll leave it at that for now. In the meantime I'm going to go and put on my flak jacket.....
Cheers,
Quilts
P.S. Further to my reply to Zaknafien about the trait 'Consul expecting'. My thoughts are that it should then lead to 'Consul', and be followed by one year, perhaps two in the later game, of 'Proconsul' with relevant Imperium ie- Command Stars.
Now where is that flak jacket?
Re: Depicting Imperium in-game
There is no need to actually represent in-game the hundreds of senators that are conceptually present anyway. The "family members" portrayed with the RTW engine are just a sample of the dozens and dozens of Senators and Equites in the Roman government. Plus, now that there are recruitable generals you can recruit as many tribunes as you like anyway.
Like I mentioned before, the entire Roman political system is going through an internal overhaul at the moment. I'm spearheading some pretty radical changes with Phillipvs, and I think you'll be happy when you see them. But portraying dozens of family members is something that will probably not happen in EB as we must strike a balance between gameplay and realism.
I disagree with Consulars getting command-stars simply for the privilege of office; history is replete with Consuls that were militarily inept. This is more likely than not related to the amici (friends) of the Consuls who accompanied them on campaign and served as advisors and in the later Republic, Legates.
Re: Depicting Imperium in-game
Okay, Quilts. I've let this discussion go on because it is an interesting idea and would make a good mini-mod for EB, very popular with many of those who like to play "historically."
However, I can categorically state that we are not going to penalise people for not using Consuls to lead armies. What you will see more of in the next release are proconculs with Imperium.
If it really bothers you I suggest an abstraction: Marcus Tullius Cicero is a shoddy general, so whenever he goes on campaign he take his brother Quintus with him. Marcus sits up front with the Aquila but everybody knows Quintus is doing all the work and all the fighting.
Even if Marcus' army kicks seven shades of purple out of the Eastern Barbarians the Senate aren't going to give him a triumph because everybody knows his brother and friends did a lot of the leg work. So the most he can expect is an Ovation.
So, because of this, you see Quintus in game, with no Imperium, instead of Marcus.
AW: Re: Depicting Imperium in-game
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
However, I can categorically state that we are not going to penalise people for not using Consuls to lead armies. What you will see more of in the next release are proconculs with Imperium.
Great!
Re: Depicting Imperium in-game
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaknafien
There is no need to actually represent in-game the hundreds of senators that are conceptually present anyway.
I agree.....gee, I only got to 23 (plus 16 up and comings) :laugh4: . I have to admit, I was expecting a much 'stronger' backlash from the community than what I got. I almost feel.....well, disappointed :shame:
Quote:
The "family members" portrayed with the RTW engine are just a sample of the dozens and dozens of Senators and Equites in the Roman government. Plus, now that there are recruitable generals you can recruit as many tribunes as you like anyway.
So recruitbale generals will be becoming a standard feature of EB? Or do you just mean in add-on Mods? Personally I'd like to see it as a standard feature but won't die in a ditch over it.
Quote:
Like I mentioned before, the entire Roman political system is going through an internal overhaul at the moment. I'm spearheading some pretty radical changes with Phillipvs, and I think you'll be happy when you see them. But portraying dozens of family members is something that will probably not happen in EB as we must strike a balance between gameplay and realism.
Can't wait. Got any hints :beam:
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I disagree with Consulars getting command-stars simply for the privilege of office; history is replete with Consuls that were militarily inept. This is more likely than not related to the amici (friends) of the Consuls who accompanied them on campaign and served as advisors and in the later Republic, Legates.
This idea was merely a means of using the the RTW engine to create a 'situation' ie- the Consul being in charge of the army in most circumstances, rather than the 20 year old, but obviously rather talented, Tribune, who joined that army. Makes it very hard to roleplay, if you know what I mean.
I just don't see any other way of ensuring this effect because the RTW system puts the guy with the most command stars in charge. If there's a way around that I'd love to hear it. Pretty please!
I did include the 'disclaimer', or thought I had?, that he may have the command stars but not necessarily be a good general. That's where the morale bonus/penalty system comes into play with a healthy dose of 'your troops generally hate you because your incompetent' for said Consul. Love that morale system!
Cheers,
Quilts
Re: Depicting Imperium in-game
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Okay, Quilts. I've let this discussion go on because it is an interesting idea and would make a good mini-mod for EB, very popular with many of those who like to play "historically."
PVC, my friend, you really do have a way with words :yes: . Whilst reading this sentence I went from disbelief, to outraged, to offended and then to curious. I'll work on the premise (which I hope is true) that you did not intend to offend or insult me, but have to say.....many thanks for 'letting this discussion go on' :laugh4: , sorry, couldn't help myself :clown:
Quote:
However, I can categorically state that we are not going to penalise people for not using Consuls to lead armies. What you will see more of in the next release are proconculs with Imperium.
Ok. Looking forward to it. You'll note in my reply to Zaknafien that I'm curious about how you'll overcome the 'most command stars in charge' dilemma.
Quote:
If it really bothers you I suggest an abstraction: Marcus Tullius Cicero is a shoddy general, so whenever he goes on campaign he take his brother Quintus with him. Marcus sits up front with the Aquila but everybody knows Quintus is doing all the work and all the fighting.
Even if Marcus' army kicks seven shades of purple out of the Eastern Barbarians the Senate aren't going to give him a triumph because everybody knows his brother and friends did a lot of the leg work. So the most he can expect is an Ovation.
So, because of this, you see Quintus in game, with no Imperium, instead of Marcus.
That's a good idea and I will certainly give it a go when next I start a new campaign. Not sure whether I'll cope terribly well, but will persist.
But even under those circumstances, there's still a need for more characters, or Quintus will want to be part of a very very big incompetent family :yes: .
Cheers,
Quilts
