Illegal immigrants deserve citizenship...

Zak, I suggest you pull out your history book and review how immigration actually has been treated in American history. "White" Irish, Germans, Italians and Jews were all forced to live in enclaves and were refused even basic protections of law. Even newly arrived English settlers were discriminated against in comparison to natively born Americans during colonial times. Go read about the "Know-Nothings". Read about the original enemies of the Klan. Then maybe we can have a rational discussion.

This isn't a racial discussion, and I don't know why you're making it about 'white-versus-brown'. It's a question of law and economic stability. As I said, you're being inconsistent in that you seem to be favoring brown over black or yellow. Why not bring every last person on the planet that wants to come to the USA here? And in fact, let's put them all at your house.

And by the way, there is one significant difference in the current Mexican/Yucatan immigration flow and other major immigration trends in American history.

Without exception, prior to the Mexican/Yucatan immigration stream of the past 30 years, all major streams of immigrants into this country have followed a definitive pattern:

-Immigrants arrive (legally or illegally) with a sense of permanent relocation.
-They quickly settle into enclaves and get jobs.
-They attempt to assimilate into society by sending their children to school.
-Where they can, they attempt to learn English and the rules of society.
-Eventually, as they progress economically, they move out of the enclaves and join into the integrated society.

I would argue that there are actually two immigration flows coming from Mexico/Yucatan right now. One, the smaller of the two, actually follows the traditional immigration pattern I list above (which would have much less resistance, for the record).

But there is a large influx of immigrants coming to this country that follows a new and unique pattern:

-They arrive with a transitory view of living here.
-They view the United States as an economic opportunity, not a new country of residence.
-They do not attempt to learn the language. They do not encourage their children to learn the language. If they get educated at all, they force 'Spanish-education' programs on our public school systems.
- They do not pay taxes, but they do consume public services. Frequently, they travel from Mexico to the USA specifically to receive these services (get an operation, then return to Mexico to convalesce).
-Any sense of political union comes in the form of last year's mass demonstrations, with this business of Azatlan, where they claim that anyplace they have a large spanish-speaking enclave should be politically separated from the USA and joined to Mexico.

Comparing the two trends, and I've already allowed that large number of Mexican immigrants do follow the first pattern, it's fairly obvious that the second trend presents a pervasive threat to the security, cohesiveness and economic stability of our country and must be addressed.

Zaknafian, I apologize for saying that your views are racist and bigoted. It was uncalled for, and wrong. My arguments are strong enough that I don't need to resort to accusations and personal attacks. You are of course entitled to hold your views without concern of being villified by me for having them, and I do truly know better.

I would suggest that perhaps you examine the consequences of your views on an open border policy on the global scale, as I believe it is inconsistent to offer such an immigration policy to the immigrants of only one region, when there are many more around the globe that are desirous of an opportunity to live and work within the United States.

In short, I'm sorry for the inappropriate language in my first two posts and it won't happen again. :bow:

I second the Don's series of points.

Those who wish to immigrate legally and join our n/ationculture -- fine. A little healthy change is a good thing and we will be the stronger for it.

Those who do so illegally should be returned so that they may start over following a legitimate path.

Those who simply seek economic advantage with no intention of joining this nation can try somewhere else.

Something else I'd like to throw in here that I've seen alluded to in other posts.

The old saying of "Give me your poor, your tired, ..." etc, those days are long gone. The world's changed, America has changed, The Wild West has long since been populated and claimed. The other thing that I think people are missing out on is the overall mindset of our great-great grandmothers and fathers. People coming over HAD to find work, they were all looking for work, because if you didn't get a job you starved and died. There weren't systems and organizations in place that there are now that one can leech off of. Before anyone jumps this about prejudice, I'm not saying that all people come here just to get on welfare, HOWEVER I have read credible sources which indicate that a good deal of them do. Why work, when you can come here, get on welfare, and living 10-100x better without working at all than you were back in whatever place or nation it was you came from.

The other problem I have is what Don outlined. When you come here, you become an American. I went to college with a guy who was from the "Little Italy" part of Chicago, I'm talking full accent, fully fluent in Italian, etc. Mob associations unknown. :grin: The point is, though he and his family self identified with their italian roots and culture, they thought of themselves first and foremost as Americans. They spoke Italian at home, but English everywhere else. They retained all of the great quirks from their Italian cultural heritage, but were Americans also through and through. This to me represents the ideal image of what it means to be a diverse melting pot of cultures, but one as a nation and people.

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Originally Posted by English assassin

Personally, I would like to hand on to my children the same that was handed on to me by my parents, a roughly 1 in 60 million share in a stable middle ranking liberal parliamentary democracy. I am not enormously worried if the country is a bit darker skinned when I leave than it was when I arrived. But I do NOT want to hand on a 1 in 80 million share in a deeply divided country where all the green fields have been built on and where various bitterly opposed factions espouse sharia, worship of the FSM, or any other such nonsense.

Accordingly I am in favour of sensible immigration controls.

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Well said. :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by English assassin
Personally, I would like to hand on to my children the same that was handed on to me by my parents, a roughly 1 in 60 million share in a stable middle ranking liberal parliamentary democracy. I am not enormously worried if the country is a bit darker skinned when I leave than it was when I arrived. But I do NOT want to hand on a 1 in 80 million share in a deeply divided country where all the green fields have been built on and where various bitterly opposed factions espouse sharia, worship of the FSM, or any other such nonsense.

Accordingly I am in favour of sensible immigration controls.

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agreed.

Right. It's not like I disagree with people sayin' illegal immigration is creating problems in the USA and something must be done about it but...

Please, please, please, please don't bring up the old Welfare Leechers argument again! What percentage of illegal immigrants leech welfare and spend time playing Playstation 3 at home and what percentage work their very butts off the strawberry fields of California? How many look like they come right out of the Grapes of Wrath and how many are driving in brand-new Toyotas? I really really hate it when people bring up this whole outrage-mongering ordeal against immigrants/Mexicans/poor people/communists/everybody all the time.

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Originally Posted by Zaknafien

That is no reason to punish the thousands of law-abiding people who simply want a better life for their families and WANT to work, pay taxes, and contribute to society. Perhaps if you lived in the abject poverty of northern Mexico or moreso in Central America you'd be more willing to allow these people a chance at the life most of us were born into from no virtue of our own.

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I would very much like to welcome these thousands of law-abiding people who simply want a better life for their families into our country. One problem is that with so much illegal immigration taking place, the government's plan to combat it has included making legal immigration from Latin America ridiculously difficult. We need legal channels to allow immigrants into the nation, and we need to reduce illegal immigration by draconian measures against those who employ illegals and benefit from their labor.

Ajax

I live in San Antonio Texas. I've lived here my entire life. I can say this without batting an eyelash. The working/middle class Mexicans (even the ones with questionable papers) assamilate much quciker than the ones with money or the poorest. About half the Mexicans I know speak as much or less spainish than I do and about 85% raley speak it all. The problem is the richest and the poorest not the 80% in between. Granted I have a different veiwpoint as the Mexicans here dont have any enclaves as they are 60% of the citites population but Don is wrong. Illegals are a huge problem for the economy and they also take up much needed land. Also some of the most assimalted mexicans I know come from the "valley" which is 90% Mexican (Eagle Pass and Laradeo are exceptions but the drugs have a vice grip on those towns). The point is this. Many of you are dealing with 1st generation immagrants Im am dealing mostly with 2nd 3rd 4th gneneration ones (hell I know some whose familes were in Texas long before yours trulies) They will assimalte. I also think California is different than Texas. In Cali there seem to be those people who like to help illegals and like to promote seprate institutions. in Texas we dont have those people:smash:

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Originally Posted by ajaxfetish

I would very much like to welcome these thousands of law-abiding people who simply want a better life for their families into our country. One problem is that with so much illegal immigration taking place, the government's plan to combat it has included making legal immigration from Latin America ridiculously difficult. We need legal channels to allow immigrants into the nation, and we need to reduce illegal immigration by draconian measures against those who employ illegals and benefit from their labor.

Ajax

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Concur.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Can't say I know - noone ever asked for citizenship proof or anything from all them.

CR

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That was always a point of great comedy for me. Thousands of people marching against any measure that would impair people breaking the law (illegal immigrants). These people also look a lot like those sneaking across the border, not to mention that they wave the Mexican flag. I guess asking these people their legal status would've been racial or...flag..profiling. All I know is that law enforcement could secure their arrest records if they just watched CNN, they show you where the criminals are.

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

Right. It's not like I disagree with people sayin' illegal immigration is creating problems in the USA and something must be done about it but...

Please, please, please, please don't bring up the old Welfare Leechers argument again! What percentage of illegal immigrants leech welfare and spend time playing Playstation 3 at home and what percentage work their very butts off the strawberry fields of California? How many look like they come right out of the Grapes of Wrath and how many are driving in brand-new Toyotas? I really really hate it when people bring up this whole outrage-mongering ordeal against immigrants/Mexicans/poor people/communists/everybody all the time.

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Since you specifically asked for it not to be brought up, I'll go ahead and bring it up:

I don't care how hard they work and how much they consume resulting in sales tax revenue..... if they aren't paying income taxes (which they arent if they are illegal) and if they aren't paying medicaid (which they arent if they are here illegally) and if they arent paying into social security (which they arent if they are here illegally) then they have absolutley no freaking right to benefit from the social services provided in the form of foodstamps, medical care, WIC, police and fire protection and a free public education complete with free lunch.

Illegals don't pay taxes. They pay some taxes. I don't care if they are mexicans, the russian mob, or the three illegals who just tried to shoot up ft dix, they don't pay taxes the can ***** off.

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Originally Posted by Zaknafien

Ive been stationed in Arizona three times and served with the US Border Patrol on three campaigns, but I do not live therein. Criminal elements will always operate along borders, its the same here in the United States or in Afghanistan or Iraq. Seams are where dissaffected elements gather, its almost like a law of nature. That is no reason to punish the thousands of law-abiding people who simply want a better life for their families and WANT to work, pay taxes, and contribute to society. Perhaps if you lived in the abject poverty of northern Mexico or moreso in Central America you'd be more willing to allow these people a chance at the life most of us were born into from no virtue of our own.

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Take a good hard look at the economic stability of the four main border states. Take a good hard look at the economic stability of the medical systems for those four states. Then think about your bolded statement - since I welcome legal immigrantion and even support increased immigrantion from the southern borders. However I do not support illegal immigrantion for numerous reasons - one being the group of criminals that operate on the border that are highly involved in all sorts of illegal activities. MS-13.

And it seems in your attempt to defend your postion you have attempted a strawman arguement. I have never stated that I am against immigrantion especially those who wish to better their lives and become american citizens.

It seems that when one begins to discover that their arguement is full of holes and falacies they resort to emotional appeal. I fnd it funny that you attack a postion that I have not taken.

Again have you taken a serious look at how the Mexician Government operates along the border?

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

Illegals don't pay taxes. They pay some taxes.

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:inquisitive:

And if you really want to bring it up how about that little point I mentioned earlier: when you really compare their average earnings with the Federal Income Tax level -- the whole IRS thing is progressive, no? -- they really won't be paying crap anyway legal or illegal. What? A hundred dollars a year at best?

The whole "they're stealing **** from us while sitting in their happy little enclaves speaking Spanish (affront)" is just plain outrage-mongering, which I often find, in many cases, to be sort of racist inside as well. Not that I'm saying you are, or most people who try to stop illegal immigration is.

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

:inquisitive:

And if you really want to bring it up how about that little point I mentioned earlier: when you really compare their average earnings with the Federal Income Tax level -- the whole IRS thing is progressive, no? -- they really won't be paying crap anyway legal or illegal. What? A hundred dollars a year at best?

The whole "they're stealing **** from us while sitting in their happy little enclaves speaking Spanish (affront)" is just plain outrage-mongering, which I often find, in many cases, to be sort of racist inside as well. Not that I'm saying you are, or most people who try to stop illegal immigration is.

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Your actually only partially correct. Social Security and Medicare are paid into the system regardless of your total income. Social Security payments is roughly 7% of your pay regardless of your income up to I believe about $100,000 which you are no longer taxed on that income.

Medicare is about 2.5% again paid regardless of your income.

So while you are correct about the IRS income tax you completely left off the other two income taxes that must be paid. Your statement also leaves out the taxes that employer's must pay into the system, which is roughly a matching amount for Medicare and Social Security, (I don't remember the IRS Payroll Tax amount.) So not only is it the illegal immigrants not paying into the two main social safety nets to support people - employers are also cheating and violating the law.

So if an Illegal immigrant worker makes say $10,000 a year - any income tax paid into the system by him would be returned - however 250 dollars would have been paid into medicare and 700 dollars into social security, with a roughly matching payment of 950 paid by the employer. So when the illegal immigrant goes to the emergancy room for medical treatment - instead of being eligable of medicare and medicaid, and the tax system being able to provide some finicial support to the hospital and the patient for treatment. The illegal has to be treated in the emerancy room, and the hospital eats the cost.

So before claiming others are being racist about wanting immigrants to be in this country legally and paying thier share into the system - you might help if people actually understood the American tax system a little better.

For the record I detest the commericals on TV that promise free Medicare to the elderly for devices that they might or might not need. That to cheats the American Tax payer, and the elderly themselves also.

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

Since you specifically asked for it not to be brought up, I'll go ahead and bring it up:

I don't care how hard they work and how much they consume resulting in sales tax revenue..... if they aren't paying income taxes (which they arent if they are illegal) and if they aren't paying medicaid (which they arent if they are here illegally) and if they arent paying into social security (which they arent if they are here illegally) then they have absolutley no freaking right to benefit from the social services provided in the form of foodstamps, medical care, WIC, police and fire protection and a free public education complete with free lunch.

Illegals don't pay taxes. They pay some taxes. I don't care if they are mexicans, the russian mob, or the three illegals who just tried to shoot up ft dix, they don't pay taxes the can ***** off.

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So if the labour is necessary then allow easier legal immigration.

If the illegal immigration is encouraged by employers in the US then clamp down on those employers.

If illegal immigration brings with it other criminality then easier authorised immigration coupled with decreased economic insentives for illegal immigration would seem to be a reasonable effort at a solution.

Why concentrate on the criminality of illegal immigration when the cause of much of it is criminality within the US border states?

For those who think I didn't explain the tax issue's with illegal immigrant labor. Here is some of the basic law definitions easily found with any internet search. Just type in the words employer payroll taxes, United States.

http://smallbusiness.findlaw.com/emp...mployment.html

or you can go to Wikipedia also

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payroll_tax

However I do have a slight correction - Social Security is 6.2% and Medicare is 2.9%.

The matching requirement however is still correct, plus there are some other payroll taxes that are required to be paid by the employer only.

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

:inquisitive:

And if you really want to bring it up how about that little point I mentioned earlier: when you really compare their average earnings with the Federal Income Tax level -- the whole IRS thing is progressive, no? -- they really won't be paying crap anyway legal or illegal. What? A hundred dollars a year at best?

The whole "they're stealing **** from us while sitting in their happy little enclaves speaking Spanish (affront)" is just plain outrage-mongering, which I often find, in many cases, to be sort of racist inside as well. Not that I'm saying you are, or most people who try to stop illegal immigration is.

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You do realize that even if "you aren't paying much income taxes" you still pay the taxes up front, and then get them all refunded at the end of the year. It's the cornerstone of a deficit economy, we are a country that relies on credit on all levels. So yes, many of them would get all their state and federal taxes back, but those taxes would initially go into the coffers to be spent.

And if many of the illegals would pull their heads out of their butts, they just might realize that they would get more back than they paid in if they have kids, thanks to an over generous child tax credit. But they might have to bother learning the language to find that out....

Oh, I also forgot to mention employers don't pay payroll taxes on illegal workers, and account for their missing money as petty cash expenditures or other deductions.

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Originally Posted by Slyspy

So if the labour is necessary then allow easier legal immigration.

If the illegal immigration is encouraged by employers in the US then clamp down on those employers.

If illegal immigration brings with it other criminality then easier authorised immigration coupled with decreased economic insentives for illegal immigration would seem to be a reasonable effort at a solution.

Why concentrate on the criminality of illegal immigration when the cause of much of it is criminality within the US border states?

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It's not so easy to clamp down on the employers when you have half the democratic party and the entire and I do mean entire latino community defending people who employ illegals. The Latino lobby doesn't want immigration reform in any way shape or form, they want amnesty and status quo.

Has it been tried? I mean, really tried?

The AG needs to be told to prosecute mayors and others who serve at publics behest and choose not to enforce existing laws. There are laws on the books to do so, all these "haven" mayors are plainly criminal.