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Re: How to defend a bridge?
I had a great quick battle once in which I (French) defended a ford against numerically and technologically seemingly superior Normans. I had the higher ground on my side, with a flat bowl right in front of the "ford-head" and a slight rise behind that. I set up my two catapults and one ballista right in front of the ford, with four units of crossbowmen behind on the rise. When the enemy came over, flaming ammo rained on them... it was pure humanity! One shot tore through the very front ranks of Normans that had just emerged from the river, crashed through half the breadth of the river (all the way burning Norman Knights) and finally landed closer to their side than to mine, right in the middle of their biggest bulk, tearing a huge hole in that mass of men. Then a shot from the other catapult did the same, only meaner. Then even the ballista racked up 25 kills with one shot!
I didn't withdraw the catapult crews but let them slow the enemy while they were showered with crossbow bolts. I wouldn't have done this in a campaign battle, of course, but it was nice in a quick battle. The enemy had lost almost 30 percent of their men before they even reached my battle line!
On the box/pocket vs. hold bridgehead question: I prefer pockets, but large ones that allow my missiles to wreak the most havoc. Sometimes, I only use the bridge/ford to channel the enemy and bunch them up, so my missiles have an easier time of finding a target. Once the enemy is on my side, I let them spread out a bit so I can use flanking more easily.
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
proudly showing off - "the spiked box of doom"
https://img406.imageshack.us/img406/...idgeboxsd4.jpg
put the infantry units on guard mode and position your arches above and behind the two flanks. they need a direct line of fire at the center of the box. the enemy usually wanders around in the box centre at the mouth of the bridge for a while. high level/experience missile troops can wreak havoc and cause a rout even before the enemy units make contact with your box.
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
Heinrich, I see you narrowly evaded the dreaded Scottish trebuchet charge. How did you manage that one?
Tschüß!
Erich
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
they did me a great favor by blocking their other units with the trebuchet unit.
i think the trebuchet unit was so eager to fire at my archers that it crossed the bridge after i moved my archers away from the stakes into their shooting range position once the battle started. :knight:
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
Well done ! ! Good screenshot !
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
Ok, where is the "set the bridge on fire" generals special ability.
:book: turns manual page :book:
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebelscum
Ok, where is the "set the bridge on fire" generals special ability.
:book: turns manual page :book:
Check page 70. ~;)
Tschüß!
Erich
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
I am playing at the danes. The Mongols left only enough Obudshaers in each unit to fill a table of poker each. Obudshaers are my pets, though the word is that halberdiers have been nerfed in 1.2.
Even though it was such a pyhrric victory I noticed in the next round that I had surpassed the Mongols as number 1 military.
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
Defending a bridge against the A.I. is like beating up a toddler.
You just shouldn't do it.
:no:
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrac
Defending a bridge against the A.I. is like beating up a toddler.
You just shouldn't do it.
:no:
defending against the AI even after this patch still feels like that sometimes, even on VH......whether your on a bridge or not. But at least they aren't tricked as easily, and actually try to flank with their cav now :sweatdrop:
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
Well the whole point of this thread is that I didn't find it as easy as I thought and wondered if I was using the right method. Turns out I did and that the Mongols are just that tough.
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
LOL... I must be doing something wrong.
So the best way is the "box of doom" right ?
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinan
LOL... I must be doing something wrong.
So the best way is the "box of doom" right ?
Actually if you have a decent amount of archers, it may well be better to form your stopper actually on the end of the bridge. Your men will have the least possible contact area with the enemy, which should mean both sides will kill each other in melee less quickly (which is what you want, so you can press your missile advantage). It has the advantage of allowing you to stack many more of your melee units in a small area to hold off the enemy as a more concentrated force, and you know the enemy can only break through in one direction which also helps planning. It should have an even bigger bunching effect on the enemy, as they should simply pack more and more up against the line you've built, nearly guaranteeing that no free space will exist for arrows to fall into. Archers off to the side a little will even have completely unobstructed shots, unlike firing over their own men in the case of the box. In fact the more I consider the differences between the two, the more I become convinced that holding the enemy on the bridge is the more beneficial plan if you have a decent missile presence.
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foz
Actually if you have a decent amount of archers, it may well be better to form your stopper actually on the end of the bridge. Your men will have the least possible contact area with the enemy, which should mean both sides will kill each other in melee less quickly (which is what you want, so you can press your missile advantage). It has the advantage of allowing you to stack many more of your melee units in a small area to hold off the enemy as a more concentrated force, and you know the enemy can only break through in one direction which also helps planning. It should have an even bigger bunching effect on the enemy, as they should simply pack more and more up against the line you've built, nearly guaranteeing that no free space will exist for arrows to fall into. Archers off to the side a little will even have completely unobstructed shots, unlike firing over their own men in the case of the box. In fact the more I consider the differences between the two, the more I become convinced that holding the enemy on the bridge is the more beneficial plan if you have a decent missile presence.
Have you tried that using spearmen in schiltrom in 1.2? That's the method I always used, but the shield bug meant my spearmen didn't hold up well. I'm wondering how devastating that is now with shields fixed...
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
I just stuff the end of the bridge with spears, I have trouble setting up good pockets in time, so I just pack the end of the bridge, put range units on the left side for unshielded attack, and have cavalry real close to the end of the bridge to kill as many routers as possible.
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
your units still get chewed up by arrows, since you've always got at least half your guys with their backs to the archers...............
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
Quote:
Originally Posted by whtdoesitmatta
I just stuff the end of the bridge with spears, I have trouble setting up good pockets in time, so I just pack the end of the bridge, put range units on the left side for unshielded attack, and have cavalry real close to the end of the bridge to kill as many routers as possible.
Since word is just coming out on this, I'll help spread it: units are not weaker to missiles on their right side in M2:TW. According to brandybarrel's communications with CA Oz, shields now apply to the front fully and the left and right at half value. So, there is no difference at all in shooting the right versus shooting the left, though both are now weaker to missiles than simply shooting the front, by half the unit's shield value (in RTW, as I understand it, units were wildly weaker to missiles on the right, but as well defended against them on the left as in the front). This is a departure from RTW, and from the assumptions we had been working with, which admittedly were based on old data and assumed to carry over from RTW.
The end result is: flank with your archers, it always helps, but don't worry about which side they're shooting at, both are improvements (equally) over front if the unit has a shield.
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
So where can I get a box of super economy size doom?
In general I've prefered to just stop the enemy at my end of the bridge and lay on the missile fire. Now I'll have to go out to the store and get a "Box of Doom" and try it out!
P.S. Should I get the regular or extra crispy? I like the speed of regular, but extra crispy (Fire arrows) just looks cooler when you keep watching them go up like matches. :devilish:
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
If you do use the box method, if your lines are not deep enough, a strong enough charge and your men will actually not form a true box allowing the enemy to slowly leak out basically destroying your whole plan
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foz
Since word is just coming out on this, I'll help spread it: units are not weaker to missiles on their right side in M2:TW. According to brandybarrel's communications with CA Oz, shields now apply to the front fully and the left and right at half value. So, there is no difference at all in shooting the right versus shooting the left, though both are now weaker to missiles than simply shooting the front, by half the unit's shield value (in RTW, as I understand it, units were wildly weaker to missiles on the right, but as well defended against them on the left as in the front). This is a departure from RTW, and from the assumptions we had been working with, which admittedly were based on old data and assumed to carry over from RTW.
The end result is: flank with your archers, it always helps, but don't worry about which side they're shooting at, both are improvements (equally) over front if the unit has a shield.
no wonder, I just play MTW II at friends house, because my computer can't run it, but I was wondering how I wasn't destroying him when it was my turn to defend...
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
I have been using something that could be said "half spiked box of doom" since Shogun TW, basically like Heinrich's strategy but not using spikes and I left 1 side open but I prepared that opened side for cavalry, whenever it got too crowded I charged them from that opened side, if the charge successful you'll see almost all the enemy routed instantly; or using flaming altilery/ribault/even netaffun to bombard them.
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
Contrary to RTW, where I placed a strong defensive unit - preferably phalanx - directly at the end of the bridge, I´ve found that in M2TW it´s better to use the pocket, or to deploy a regular battle line a bit back from the bridgehead. The main point is to allow the enemy so far across the bridge that he can be attacked with a cavalry charge in the flanks.
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
Contrary to RTW, where I placed a strong defensive unit - preferably phalanx - directly at the end of the bridge, I´ve found that in M2TW it´s better to use the pocket, or to deploy a regular battle line a bit back from the bridgehead. The main point is to allow the enemy so far across the bridge that he can be attacked with a cavalry charge in the flanks.
You may have found this more effective due to the extreme uselessness of the various defensive units in prior game versions, and the relative supremeness of cavalry at completely annihilating all kinds of other units almost immediately. Pike and halberd units are still not nearly as effective as they should be in the base game, but shield units do work appropriately well now, so if you've not experimented with using shielded heavies in a bridge-head-defending role in 1.2, I would recommend doing so, it changes the dynamics of the encounter quite a lot w/ the different balance of the various fixes in 1.2. That shields work also means cav wreak a bit less havoc when charging, so if anything 1.2 has stolen a lot of thunder from this particular tactic. Conversely the improved defensive capabilities of many units in 1.2 lend themselves better to holding the enemy at or near the bridge head. So while this tactic would be a no-brainer in 1.1 for instance, it is certainly far from it in 1.2 as other tactics have been improved while this one took a hit.
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
It depends of many things which tactic will i use... But i prefer "pocket" :duel:
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
I just found a pretty good tactic for anyone that wants to try it.
In performing the box at deployment, make the side facing the bridge spearmen in schiltrom where the sides of the circles overlap just a little bit. Then, with a catapult unit, single click deploy at the point just behind where the circles meet. What happens is the spear units actually form a schiltrom around the catapults on three sides.
This does three nice things. 1.) The catapults make a hard wall where the spearmen cannot get pushed back, helping to brace them, 2.) the catapult unit is protected by the spearmen, and more importantly 3.) Since the catapult releases it's ammunition at a point above the men, you have a constant line of fire directly down the bridge without hitting your own troops.
This can be done with gunpowder units, too, but it works a little differently. You have to position the cannons so their front protrudes out front of the schiltrom. This allows them to fire under the protections of the spearmen.
Try it, it's fun :beam:
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
That sounds awesome, and may be a good reason to keep using catapults just for this purpose after more powerful gunpowder units have arrived. For instance, I will try this and make some cats at Antioch to keep the Turks at bay while I focus on taking Jerusalem from the Mongols.
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
Last night I tried the pocket technique in Alexander: Total War, using phalangists and javelins to defend a bridge crossing from a full Persian stack---final result: 1508 dead Persians, 0 dead Greeks. Granted the phalangists are way better than any MT2W spearmen, but I was amazed at just how effective the technique can be. :dizzy2: Makes me wish there were more bridge battles in M2TW---I think I've gone over a hundred turns without one.
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
For everyone's viewing pleasure, I've taken some screenshots of my catapult technique to explain it better:
I hope that helps! You can use this technique with several spear schiltroms and catapult units. Usually I have 4 schiltroms and two catapults at the end of the pocket, sometimes extending it to 6 schiltroms to make that side longer with the potential of adding an extra catapult. It works wonders!
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Re: How to defend a bridge?
For an added challenge why not let yourself get sandwiched between 2 AI armies, one attacking over the bridge and the other attacking your rearguard.
Need to balance exactly how many troops will be needed to destroy the first lot of attackers before you can rush everyone over the bridge to repeat the trick on the other side.
Means you have to have your artillery fairly close to the bridge so they can get pushed across the bridge in time. I usually have my cavalry presenting a screen to delay the 2nd army. They can then scarper over the bridge just before contact or withdraw off to one side and then return and attack the 2nd army in the rear.
