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Re: HB Guild in Catholic cities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jambo
I'm sorry, but this standpoint doesn't wash with me. I have never seen a Horse Breeders Guild in my entire time of playing Med II, and that's not surprising given that the main source of points for the HBG is from the stables line of buildings and these are only buildable in cities. Like Foz stated above, this can't be design intention. It's a mistake, plain and simple. Yes it might be possible from some obsessed human player to manufacture the game's mechanics to get a HBG, but if it's that difficult for the player it'll be nigh impossible for the AI, which seemingly just builds the first guild offered in any of its cities/castles. And this is why the AI always has Thieves Guilds in its cities and the occasional Swordsmith Guild in its castles. Any good game design should be based around what the AI can achieve, and if the AI can't do it, it shouldn't be in (or should at least be modified).
I agree it is rare, but I have seen the AI build Horse Breeders Guilds twice, once in an Egyptian city and once in a Turkish city. I agree it should be a bit more common, but I think that's more because other guilds are usually offered first and the AI always takes the first thing that is offered. That's why the Thieves Guild shows up everywhere: the AI like spies, so that play style naturally encourages the offer of the TG. If the AI reduced spy production, you would see other guilds in AI cities more often.
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Re: HB Guild in Catholic cities.
The Alchemist's Guild, Woodsmen's Guild and Horse Breeders Guild have their bonuses written like:
gun_bonus 1
archer_bonus 1
cavalry_bonus 1
Whereas the Swordsmiths Guild and other bonus-related buildings have them written as:
heavy_cavalry_bonus bonus 1
happiness_bonus bonus 1
trade_based_income_bonus bonus 1
law_bonus bonus 1
(with an extra "bonus")
Are the first set working as intended?
And is there a way of giving valour or bonuses to melee infantry?
E.g. heavy_infantry_bonus bonus 1
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
The entire guild point system is buggy. I get offered guilds in cities that have never even seen the unit it’s meant to improve. The theologian’s guild seems to work fine but thieves and explorers at the very least have issues.
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Re: HB Guild in Catholic cities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jambo
The Alchemist's Guild, Woodsmen's Guild and Horse Breeders Guild have their bonuses written like:
gun_bonus 1
archer_bonus 1
cavalry_bonus 1
Whereas the Swordsmiths Guild and other bonus-related buildings have them written as:
heavy_cavalry_bonus bonus 1
happiness_bonus bonus 1
trade_based_income_bonus bonus 1
law_bonus bonus 1
(with an extra "bonus")
Are the first set working as intended?
Yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jambo
And is there a way of giving valour or bonuses to melee infantry?
E.g. heavy_infantry_bonus bonus 1
Try it :tongue2:
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
As HoreTore suggested, I commented out the spy-in-enemy-settlement and spy-mission-success type triggers. The end result after 77 turns on autopilot (I typically start a hotseat game, control mongols, then give up control of my faction in order to make a bunch of turns pass) is no thieves guilds that I can find at all. As a result most cities have mechants or explorers guilds, but Egypt in particular seems to have developed a healthy dose of theologians guilds. Some cities also get knight chapter houses now, as thieves guilds are not turning up to push everything else out. All in all it's a huge step in the right direction, though it makes me cringe to see explorers guilds knowing how worthless they are. Perhaps they ought to be disabled until we can hammer down enough other solutions to actually get to fixing them somehow.
I don't know at what point the AI will start getting some thieves guilds again, but it seems like we should push the numbers up from here to try to achieve balance. It turns out I don't like the one-guild trigger plan as much, as it would generally guarantee the capital will house the thieves guild since it achieves guild ability first. With the trigger mods in place, the capitals are generally getting merchants guilds, which seems just fine with me considering that they usually are the economic center of the empire. I'm not sure whether the guild bonus for producing spies should go up or if either of the two removed triggers should just be reinstated, but my inclination is the former as both removed triggers are likely overpowered on their own, especially since they grant points to all settlements.
About Daveybaby's idea of reworking the guilds, I'm definitely all for it. Many guilds seem rather afterthought-like, and there is clearly a lot more benefit that can be squeezed out of the idea.
I think the combat troop guilds would actually make the most sense if they were just aligned by troop type. It makes great sense from a design perspective to have a melee guild, an archer guild, and a mounted troop guild. The horsebreeders already counts for all cavalry that exist, and doubly so after it is allowed in castles. Swordsmith gains points from only sword troops, but grants a general melee bonus, which seems inconsistent. Woodsmens seems tailor-made to be an archery guild, but is unnecessarily limited to only England. I think a lot of the complaints and balance issues with those 3 guilds would be solved if they were simply expanded into their natural broad-class roles: the given class grants guild points when recruited, and gains benefits from the guild. Castles would then have far more/better guild choices (judging realistically, not by what a player could theoretically accomplish) and each AI faction is likely to make best use of the guild that plays on its unit strengths, lending a more distinct feel to fighting different factions than is currently possible. With some tinkering it may even be possible to get some AI factions to have nearly even odds of getting each of the 3 guilds, mimicking the settlement specialization that some players will employ.
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foz
All in all it's a huge step in the right direction, though it makes me cringe to see explorers guilds knowing how worthless they are. Perhaps they ought to be disabled until we can hammer down enough other solutions to actually get to fixing them somehow.
...
About Daveybaby's idea of reworking the guilds, I'm definitely all for it. Many guilds seem rather afterthought-like, and there is clearly a lot more benefit that can be squeezed out of the idea.
If you want to make the Explorer's Guild useful, I have an idea. Make them give temporary bonuses to movement. For instance, units that start their turn in a city with an Explorer's Guild get an extra 50% movement for that turn. A Master's level increases it to 2 turns (or an extra 100% movement maybe) and a HQ increases it to 3 turns (or an extra 150% movement). Perhaps this could be done by granting traits 100% of the time when in an EG city, then every turn the trait loses 1 rank until it is at 0. As long as there is 1 rank in it, the bonus movement works. Regular EG give rank 1, Master's gives rank 2, HQ gives rank 3.
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
In my own working copy of the guilds file, I got a quite good balance of guilds even for AI factions. They tend to get quite a lot of horse breeder and order guilds in particular and some sword and merchants guilds. Of course also the occassional thieves guild.
Haven't seen an assassin guild or explorer guild with the AI yet in my set up, but thats likely due to the AI hardly ever training/using assassins or if they do, they have other guilds already.
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
If you want to make the Explorer's Guild useful, I have an idea. Make them give temporary bonuses to movement. For instance, units that start their turn in a city with an Explorer's Guild get an extra 50% movement for that turn. A Master's level increases it to 2 turns (or an extra 100% movement maybe) and a HQ increases it to 3 turns (or an extra 150% movement). Perhaps this could be done by granting traits 100% of the time when in an EG city, then every turn the trait loses 1 rank until it is at 0. As long as there is 1 rank in it, the bonus movement works. Regular EG give rank 1, Master's gives rank 2, HQ gives rank 3.
Don't think that's currently possible, but its certainly possible to make some named ancillaries only become available if you have a higher level of the explorer guild. And in general increase the chances of getting them when spending a turn in town.
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
Here's some initial things I'm testing as changes for the Explorers_Guild:
Code:
;------------------------------------------
Trigger intrepid_explorer_vnv_trigger1
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
Condition EndedInSettlement
and SettlementBuildingExists = explorers_guild
and IsGeneral
AcquireAncillary intrepid_explorer chance 5
;------------------------------------------
Trigger intrepid_explorer_vnv_trigger2
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
Condition EndedInSettlement
and SettlementBuildingExists = m_explorers_guild
and IsGeneral
AcquireAncillary intrepid_explorer chance 10
;------------------------------------------
Trigger intrepid_explorer_vnv_trigger3
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
Condition EndedInSettlement
and FactionBuildingExists = gm_explorers_guild
and IsGeneral
AcquireAncillary intrepid_explorer chance 10
;------------------------------------------
Trigger intrepid_explorer_vnv_trigger4
WhenToTest AgentCreated
Condition SettlementBuildingExists = explorers_guild
AcquireAncillary intrepid_explorer chance 25
;------------------------------------------
Trigger intrepid_explorer_vnv_trigger5
WhenToTest AgentCreated
Condition SettlementBuildingExists = m_explorers_guild
AcquireAncillary intrepid_explorer chance 50
;------------------------------------------
Trigger intrepid_explorer_vnv_trigger6
WhenToTest AgentCreated
Condition FactionBuildingExists = gm_explorers_guild
AcquireAncillary intrepid_explorer chance 50
;------------------------------------------
Trigger naval_navigator_vnv_trigger1
WhenToTest AgentCreated
Condition IsAdmiral
and SettlementBuildingExists = explorers_guild
AcquireAncillary naval_navigator chance 25
;------------------------------------------
Trigger naval_navigator_vnv_trigger2
WhenToTest AgentCreated
Condition IsAdmiral
and SettlementBuildingExists = m_explorers_guild
AcquireAncillary naval_navigator chance 50
;------------------------------------------
Trigger naval_navigator_vnv_trigger3
WhenToTest AgentCreated
Condition IsAdmiral
and FactionBuildingExists = gm_explorers_guild
AcquireAncillary naval_navigator chance 50
;------------------------------------------
I also gave trade_based_income bonuses to each level (+1, +2 and +3).
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
There can only be one grandmaster guild in the game. How many of the master guild variety can one have per faction? Unlimited like the first level?
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
If you want to make the Explorer's Guild useful, I have an idea. Make them give temporary bonuses to movement. For instance, units that start their turn in a city with an Explorer's Guild get an extra 50% movement for that turn. A Master's level increases it to 2 turns (or an extra 100% movement maybe) and a HQ increases it to 3 turns (or an extra 150% movement). Perhaps this could be done by granting traits 100% of the time when in an EG city, then every turn the trait loses 1 rank until it is at 0. As long as there is 1 rank in it, the bonus movement works. Regular EG give rank 1, Master's gives rank 2, HQ gives rank 3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FactionHeir
Don't think that's currently possible, but its certainly possible to make some named ancillaries only become available if you have a higher level of the explorer guild. And in general increase the chances of getting them when spending a turn in town.
Why wouldn't it be possible? Here's something close, I'll finish making it to order when I can. As it is, sitting in an explorers guild builds up movement bonus levels. Shouldn't be too hard to make it work the other way, based on guild level. I start out using a 3 level trait to get the job done. Something like this:
Code:
;------------------------------------------
Trait EnhancedMovement
Characters all
Level Movement_1
Description Movement_1_desc
EffectsDescription Movement_1_effects_desc
GainMessage Movement_1_gain_desc
LoseMessage Movement_1_lose_desc
Threshold 1
Effect MovementPoints 5
Level Movement_2
Description Movement_2_desc
EffectsDescription Movement_2_effects_desc
GainMessage Movement_2_gain_desc
LoseMessage Movement_2_lose_desc
Threshold 2
Effect MovementPoints 10
Level Movement_3
Description Movement_3_desc
EffectsDescription Movement_3_effects_desc
GainMessage Movement_3_gain_desc
LoseMessage Movement_3_lose_desc
Threshold 3
Effect MovementPoints 15
That goes in the export_descr_character_traits.txt file (EDCT). IIRC MovementPoints is percentage based, so this should be 50%/100%/150% bonus. I could be mistaken though.
From there, you want triggers that fire on turn start or turn end, your choice. Try these:
Code:
;------------------------------------------
Trigger EG_Give_Bonus
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
Condition EndedInSettlement
and SettlementBuildingExists >= explorers_guild
Affects EnhancedMovement 1 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger EG_Remove_Bonus_A
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
Condition not EndedInSettlement
Affects EnhancedMovement -1 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger EG_Remove_Bonus_B
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
Condition EndedInSettlement
and not SettlementBuildingExists >= explorers_guild
Affects EnhancedMovement -1 Chance 100
And that also goes in the EDCT, just in the lower (trigger) section. Note that the removal triggers will hit everything that isn't in a explorers guild settlement at the end of the turn. This shouldn't be problematic though, as I recall demonstrating before that minuses to traits can never take them negative, it simply isn't allowed. So, no one can go below 0 in EnhancedMovement ranks, meaning there shouldn't be any quirks as a result.
...and, we're finished. That should get the job done. I haven't tried it, but it ought to work theoretically. I may of course have mistyped things or simply missed something, in which case anyone with a mind to try it can let me know. Also you may need to add descriptions to the correct file - I have no idea what the game does if/when it can't find some that are listed for a trait. It may even be possible to skip all the lines about descriptions and whatnot - I don't make new traits enough to know what is required, or their particular quirks.
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
As Russia I get this guild all the time. My cavalry is great, even when their green they start with experience!
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jambo
There can only be one grandmaster guild in the game. How many of the master guild variety can one have per faction? Unlimited like the first level?
One master guild per faction. You can get more though if you capture them from other factions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foz
Note that the removal triggers will hit everything that isn't in a explorers guild settlement at the end of the turn. This shouldn't be problematic though, as I recall demonstrating before that minuses to traits can never take them negative, it simply isn't allowed. So, no one can go below 0 in EnhancedMovement ranks, meaning there shouldn't be any quirks as a result.
However, you havent put any upper limit on the value of EnhancedMovement - so if you leave a unit in the settlement for 10 turns they will have the bonus for 10 turns after they leave (unless that was your intention).
I think you can put a limits in to stop this though (added lower bounds checks as well for the hell of it).
Code:
;------------------------------------------
Trigger EG_Give_Bonus
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
Condition EndedInSettlement
and SettlementBuildingExists >= explorers_guild
and Trait EnhancedMovement <= 2
Affects EnhancedMovement 1 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger EG_Remove_Bonus_A
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
Condition not EndedInSettlement
and Trait EnhancedMovement > 0
Affects EnhancedMovement -1 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger EG_Remove_Bonus_B
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
Condition EndedInSettlement
and not SettlementBuildingExists >= explorers_guild
and Trait EnhancedMovement > 0
Affects EnhancedMovement -1 Chance 100
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
Wow, nice to see that could actually be implemented. If you wanted to give the GM Explorer's Guild a global effect similar to the other guilds, you could make the GM give 3 turns of extra movement in its own city and 1 turn of extra movement in every city in your faction.
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
I noticed an interesting trigger in the export_descr_guilds file which could be used to help promote guild diversity (particularly for the AI):
Code:
;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0001_Guild_Upgraded
WhenToTest GuildUpgraded
Guild this s 20
Guild this o 10
;------------------------------------------
As I see it this only serves to perpetuate the "Thieves Guild spread." What we need is a system whereby building/upgrading a guild in one city makes the guild less likely to appear in other cities. Something like:
Code:
;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0001_Guild_Upgraded
WhenToTest GuildUpgraded
Guild this s 80
Guild this o -50
;------------------------------------------
Now, the question remains as to what the "o" actually means. Is it overall in terms of your faction or is it overall in terms of all factions? If it's the former then maybe a larger -ve could be used. If it's the latter then we'd need to be careful making this too large...
Also, another important question is whether this just triggers when one "upgrades" a guild from say basic to master for instance, or, whether this also triggers when a guild first arrives?
Any suggestions/help?
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
Another oddity I noticed is that many of the castle buildings (smiths, barracks, bowyers) give settlement points towards the Masons Guild and yet the Masons Guild is only buildable in a city. This is one guild that I have never seen (even after some previous modding) and one that might just suit a castle's needs more. If it wasn't for the city based troops that one can recruit from Masons Guilds I'd have sworn this should have been a castle guild. As it is, it's just another messed up guild.
My suggestion for this is to also make it castle based and remove the recruitment possibilities, since they're nothing exciting, and replace them with "recruits_exp_bonus bonus 1" such that they read:
Code:
masons_guild requires factions { northern_european, middle_eastern, eastern_european, greek, southern_european, }
{
capability
{
construction_cost_bonus_stone bonus 30
recruits_exp_bonus bonus 1
}
material stone
construction 1
cost 1000
settlement_min city
upgrades
{
m_masons_guild
}
}
m_masons_guild requires factions { northern_european, middle_eastern, eastern_european, greek, southern_european, }
{
capability
{
construction_cost_bonus_stone bonus 30
recruits_exp_bonus bonus 1
}
faction_capability
{
construction_cost_bonus_stone bonus 20
recruits_exp_bonus bonus 1
}
material stone
construction 1
cost 2000
settlement_min large_city
upgrades
{
gm_masons_guild
}
}
gm_masons_guild requires factions { northern_european, middle_eastern, eastern_european, greek, southern_european, }
{
capability
{
construction_cost_bonus_stone bonus 30
recruits_exp_bonus bonus 1
}
faction_capability
{
construction_cost_bonus_stone bonus 30
recruits_exp_bonus bonus 2
}
material stone
construction 1
cost 3000
settlement_min huge_city
upgrades
{
}
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
I've got Masons Guild plenty of times in cities where i wasn't really recruiting anything and just building lots.
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jambo
Now, the question remains as to what the "o" actually means. Is it overall in terms of your faction or is it overall in terms of all factions? If it's the former then maybe a larger -ve could be used. If it's the latter then we'd need to be careful making this too large...
Pretty sure that "o" means other settlements that you control.
i.e.
"s" = this settlement
"o" = other settlements belonging to this faction
"a" = all settlements belonging to this faction
I'm pretty certain that guild points scored by one faction will never affect another faction's settlements, although if a settlement changes hands its guild points are carried over with it.
Quote:
Also, another important question is whether this just triggers when one "upgrades" a guild from say basic to master for instance, or, whether this also triggers when a guild first arrives?
I think only for the first level of guild, dont penalise for upgrading. Its the quantity of thieves guilds we want to manage, not their level. Note that this scheme can (and IMO should) be applied to all guild types, not just thieves guild, as a way of forcing a balance of guild types - kind of a negative feedback loop.
Check this post which is basically suggesting the same thing.
I think its more reliable to nerf the points you get from spying in the first place, to balance things out, rather than deduct points once you get the guild, but i agree that adding points when you build the guild doesnt help matters at all. Looking at that trigger, its almost as if CA wanted to encourage a guild monoculture.
And yeah, the masons guild is pretty broken, in that its far too difficult to get, and ive never seen the AI build one.
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
"o" for others and "a" for all - that makes more sense.
The trouble with a negative feedback at the stage of the first guild is that we may well limit guilds appearing by too much? Swordsmiths for example are useful in every settlement. The theory behind putting a -ve feedback when an upgrade arrives is that often the master level has a faction-wide effect.
I also agree with the idea of making the Woodmans guild open to others. I don't really buy into the notion of it being specific for England. Given the power of the Swordsmiths guild it's probably a good idea to open it up to the factions that can't get it easily, like for example Russia, by making Dismounted Druchima and Boyars count towards it.
I'm amazed you've had a Masons guild Lusted. Like the Horse Breeders, I've never even had one offered to me....
However I do agree that getting rid of the obvious bad triggers like the spy one and probably the distance away from capital one is imperative.
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
I recall reading that the Masons Guild is the only way to get one of the best units when playing as Russia. I haven't ever played Russia to confirm this, but if it is true I think it would be a bad idea to make it castle only.
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCow
I recall reading that the Masons Guild is the only way to get one of the best units when playing as Russia. I haven't ever played Russia to confirm this, but if it is true I think it would be a bad idea to make it castle only.
No, you can get Berdiche Axemen at the high level city barracks, too. It's probably easier that way anyway, seeing as how you need a huge city to even get the Guild HQ. Might as well just build the barracks and start pumping them out.
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
Nope. Masons guild gives russia EE Spearmilitia and Berdiche axemen, both of which are available from other buildings as well.
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
AFAIK all of the mason's guild units are trainable by the relevant faction elsewhere (havent checked all of them though)... which just increases its already considerable uselessness.
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jambo
Also, another important question is whether this just triggers when one "upgrades" a guild from say basic to master for instance, or, whether this also triggers when a guild first arrives?
According to the docudemons, it triggers when a guild building completes, basic, master, or hq.
The trigger in question, by the way, is BAD. As you said it actually gives other settlements a better chance of getting the exact same guild that was just gotten. We want to promote diversity, so some sort of penalty to other settlements for this guild type is indeed in order. In fact if you wanted it to actually promote other guild types, you could have that trigger grant all guilds a number of points, then remove a fat pile of points from this guild. The result would be not only this guild being less likely, but others also getting a boost. I'm not sure that's needed though - simply penalizing this guild everywhere else may well be enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyBaby
I think only for the first level of guild, dont penalise for upgrading. Its the quantity of thieves guilds we want to manage, not their level. Note that this scheme can (and IMO should) be applied to all guild types, not just thieves guild, as a way of forcing a balance of guild types - kind of a negative feedback loop.
Hmm. On the one hand, doing only the first level will keep the effect from having staying power. On the other, if you recruit a second thieves guild, their effects will hurt each other. On a third hand, I am lazy, and coding something besides the guild upgraded trigger will require a lot of specific tests for named levels of each guild. Using the provided mechanics we can have just 1 trigger that does it all, so I'm leaning that way right now.
Quote:
I think its more reliable to nerf the points you get from spying in the first place, to balance things out, rather than deduct points once you get the guild, but i agree that adding points when you build the guild doesnt help matters at all. Looking at that trigger, its almost as if CA wanted to encourage a guild monoculture.
I agree, and disapprove. It will still be imperative to nerf spying triggers. Even doing drastic things, I was unable to keep thieves guilds from springing up everywhere. I tried giving a hefty penalty to every other settlement every single turn a thieves guild was found, and it didn't stop the plague of them everywhere. Either they get queued to be offered as soon as they get to 100 points and ignore the fact that they have lost points, or they gain points at an astronomically high rate. Either way that guild's triggers have to be changed to change the behavior effectively.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jambo
The trouble with a negative feedback at the stage of the first guild is that we may well limit guilds appearing by too much? Swordsmiths for example are useful in every settlement. The theory behind putting a -ve feedback when an upgrade arrives is that often the master level has a faction-wide effect.
That's the beauty of my guild revisions: Swordsmith is no longer the only useful castle guild. All factions have a shot to get Horsebreeders and Woodsmens as well, so the diversity feedback would actually promote factions toward having all 3, which should in turn help their recruited troops come out better.
Quote:
I also agree with the idea of making the Woodmans guild open to others. I don't really buy into the notion of it being specific for England. Given the power of the Swordsmiths guild it's probably a good idea to open it up to the factions that can't get it easily, like for example Russia, by making Dismounted Druchima and Boyars count towards it.
Actually, I have it working pretty neatly right now. I'm still playing with numbers, but it's breaking down like this:
Swordsmith: now reworked into a heavy infantry guild, not simply swords. I removed all sword-specific triggers, and replaced them with 1 trigger that grants points for any heavy infantry unit that is recruited. This generally includes dismounted knights of all sorts, pike troops, lots of things really. One of them is a class and one is a category, so you can pick out applicable troops from the EDU if you like. It is now a guild with much broader application, and generally possible for any faction to get (though some of the middle_eastern factions have very low amounts of heavy infantry, so it's unlikely there still). Some factions should really love it now, though - can anyone say Dismounted Huscarls??? It only seemed fair that the most melee-intensive factions should get at and effectively use the melee-boosting guild, regardless of whether or not they are using swords.
Horsebreeders: I simply allowed it in castles, and am figuring out how to mess with the pts given to make it appear often enough. The AI uses cav pretty sparingly, so higher points than I initially thought are probably required. Rather than make HAs count for Woodsmens guild, I let them fall here, as it feels more natural to me. I also like the notion that the East and West will put the guild to drastically different uses.
Woodsmens: I allowed it to all factions, and replaced the england-specific archer triggers with a general one that grants pts for any infantry archer recruited. Also considering granting it points from the archery range series, either in addition to or instead of from the brothel line. Byzantium loves me for giving them this guild.
I also disabled the guild point normalization, as I see no point at all to arbitrarily subtracting a point from every single guild everywhere just because it is past turn 25. If anything I will award them all a point each turn to make sure settlements are actually getting guilds and getting them upgraded!
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foz
According to the docudemons, it triggers when a guild building completes, basic, master, or hq.
The trigger in question, by the way, is BAD. As you said it actually gives other settlements a better chance of getting the exact same guild that was just gotten. We want to promote diversity, so some sort of penalty to other settlements for this guild type is indeed in order. In fact if you wanted it to actually promote other guild types, you could have that trigger grant all guilds a number of points, then remove a fat pile of points from this guild. The result would be not only this guild being less likely, but others also getting a boost. I'm not sure that's needed though - simply penalizing this guild everywhere else may well be enough.
Isn't there a trigger that gives a penalty to all settlements for a guild type when you destroy one of those guild types in a province?
Code:
;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0002_Guild_Destroyed
WhenToTest GuildDestroyed
Guild this s -100
Guild this o -20
With that in mind, couldn't you change this trigger to decrease the chance of them appearing elsewhere when building one in a province to make it more like the GuildDestroyed trigger?
Code:
;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0001_Guild_Upgraded
WhenToTest GuildUpgraded
Guild this s 20
Guild this o 10
I think it would be easy to keep the "s" value, but make the "o" value a negative so that the chances of getting the guild elsewhere decrease every time one is built in another province. Make it as large as you like.
I'm not sure if that is what you guys are getting at, but it seems that might easily fix the problem.
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
@Foz,
Could you layout the actual text you used for the swordsmiths guild? I tried using bonuses to heavy infantry in the descr_buildings file and according to the error log file the game didn't recognise them..
I'm also not sure the "TrainedUnitCategory cavalry" works for horse breeders. I have a Moor city where I built a Racing Track (supposedly 50 pts) and then I built upward of 5 cavalry units (which I made give 20 pts instead of 10) and I still haven't been offered the HBG.
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
Condition TrainedUnitCategory infantry
and TrainedUnitClass heavy
I think. Didn't actually test it.
[edit]
As for guild not offering, you can only get 1 offer a turn. Also its not guaranteed I think that you get the offer right away when you met the points.
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
Does the bonus from horse breeders' guild and chapter house stack? If they do, that might shed some light on why horse breeders' guild is city only.
Considering how many points you get from building the racetrack series, I really think this is meant for the Iberian and Middle Eastern factions.
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewt
Does the bonus from horse breeders' guild and chapter house stack? If they do, that might shed some light on why horse breeders' guild is city only.
You can't have a horse breeders guild and chapter hourse in the same settlement, and anyway by the time you get a masters version of the horse breeders it will be much later on in the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewt
Considering how many points you get from building the racetrack series, I really think this is meant for the Iberian and Middle Eastern factions.
Maybe. Firstly, why give guild points for castle stable buildings? Secondly, if CA intended it to be "certain faction only" surely they'd have just restricted the factions that could build it in the file, much like they did with the Woodsmen guild...
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Re: Horse Breeders Guild - city only!
Yes Agent Smith, that's exactly what we're talking about doing - keeping a bonus for the city the recruits the guild, but making it a penalty to every other city instead of a bonus. Basically, this:
Code:
;------------------------------------------
Trigger 0001_Guild_Upgraded
WhenToTest GuildUpgraded
Guild this s 20
Guild this o -100
...or something similar. Obviously the exact amount of the o penalty is subjective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jambo
@Foz,
Could you layout the actual text you used for the swordsmiths guild? I tried using bonuses to heavy infantry in the descr_buildings file and according to the error log file the game didn't recognise them.
I found the same thing after trying many different ways I could think of that they might have put infantry or heavy infantry bonuses in. I was using it with new guild file triggers but the vanilla EDB entry, but I did ultimately want to make it bonus only infantry. Barring some way to do that, I'm trying other things. Before bed last night I changed the file to try using melee_blade numbers higher than 1, but I haven't got to try it yet. I doubt it will work, since the custom battle screens only allow 1 level of melee upgrade, though one never knows. Barring that, I may have to make it into a heavy guild (heavy infantry and heavy cav), and include the heavy cav bonus that it comes with in vanilla (though I'd want +2 on the hq since the hq level isn't an improvement at all in vanilla). At least that would still remedy the issue I have with it being related to just swords.
Hmm, I wonder if one of the non-text game files has the named bonuses in it (prolly the .exe). It would be really handy to have a comprehensive list, and that's the only way I could think of that we might get such a thing. Actually I guess it must be in some file for the game to recognize it, so the question becomes "can anyone find the entries for the archer_bonus type things in the game files and list them for us?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by FactionHeir
Condition TrainedUnitCategory infantry
and TrainedUnitClass heavy
I think. Didn't actually test it.
Yup, that's it. Depending on how I can make the guild function, the infantry part may have to go - if it must retain heavy cav bonuses for lack of any better infantry ones to use than it already has.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jambo
You can't have a horse breeders guild and chapter hourse in the same settlement, and anyway by the time you get a masters version of the horse breeders it will be much later on in the game.
It's still a valid question since horsebreeders grants faction bonuses to cav, which means chapter houses will possibly become affected by it. The way the EDB reads, it looks like the higher chapter house levels simply recruit different knights - ones that have 1 or 2 exp built in. They do not use anything resembling the archer_bonus form to get the job done, it's just part of the recruitment pool line for the higher guild level that the unit has inherently 1 or 2 exp. That makes it very likely IMO that the effects stack.
I suppose that means there is a workaround for the possible lack of a melee experience bonus, though it would be some work. The basic idea would be to have the 3 guild levels each trigger a separate set of recruitment codes for the barracks series, while no swordsmith guild would trigger the vanilla recruitment pools. We'd basically have to make 3 copies of the existing recruitment lines for each barracks level. The first stays the same, and gets "requires not SettlementBuildingExists >= swordsmiths_guild" Similarly, the second third and fourth set would have the last number (for unit chevrons) set to 1, 2, or 3 accordingly, and they'd be tied to the correct guild building with another requires line. For instance, "requires SettlementBuildingExists = swordsmiths_guild".
It should even be possible to emulate a faction-wide bonus for the second and third levels by adding similar conditions, but it would make the file even more crazy to look at. The game would need the following states:
- vanilla recruitment: no swordsmiths guild exists here, and no m-level+ in the faction.
- bonus 1: basic swordsmiths exists here, or m-level exists in faction (but not here).
- bonus 2: m-level exists here, or gm-level exists elsewhere.
- bonus 3: gm-level exists here.
So it's the same 4 sets of recruitment lines required, but the logic requirements are now much nastier to code. Checking if a guild level exists elsewhere but not here is where the trick happens. You'd have to check "FactionBuildingExists = desiredLevel and not SettlementBuildingExists = desiredLevel" to get the right effect. It's easily do-able, just requires a minute of thought to make sure you get it straight :smile:
