Yeah, and the fact that the Iranian army, sorry, Hezbollah, is operating in Lebanon had nothing to do with it...Quote:
However Israel seems to have constantly strived to destabilise Libanon, last years terrible act comes to mind.
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Yeah, and the fact that the Iranian army, sorry, Hezbollah, is operating in Lebanon had nothing to do with it...Quote:
However Israel seems to have constantly strived to destabilise Libanon, last years terrible act comes to mind.
Israel is involved only so far as it happens to be Palestinian refugees in a camp .
Its like a rerun of the start of the civil war , only this time its a Western backed government fighting against a Syrian backed "militia" .
Accompanied by a nice spate of tit for tat carbombs in Sunni and Christian areas of Beirut .
So Panzer...the events concern Palestinians , the Palestine/Israel problem is central to events . A core issue of that is the refugees , it happens to be the major sticking point in any proposed resolution .Quote:
The question is: Why is your knee-jerk reaction to blame Israel for the events highlighted in this thread?
Correction: that was the Lebanon's own doing. Oops! Should've integrated them into society, like Jordan did (and only after Arafat and chums tried to do to that country what they did to Lebanon).Quote:
Israel is involved only so far as it happens to be Palestinian refugees in a camp .
:oops: indeed Baba, don't ya know that Jordan has bigger refugee camps than Lebanon , the people who live in them are ....errrrrrrr.....Palestinian refugees:dizzy2:Quote:
Correction: that was the Lebanon's own doing. Oops!
Actually, there is hardly a problem with refugees anywhere near the size as it exists in Lebanon, the West Bank that Jordan fled, and the Gaza Strip that Egypt fled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Sure, there used to be, but after Black September this element of population (forming a larger part of Jordan's society than the native Bedouin Arabs today) was steadily integrated into the relatively oilless (and therefore less divided) country of Jordan. Now, the economy is largerly motored by the Palestinian majority, though in typical Middle Eastern fashion the political situation has not changed a whit to match, the Hashemites still strongly in control, if not quite as strongly as their Saudi colleagues.
It only goes to show you what might have been achieved had Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan (which, as you touch upon, still copes with the latent results) integrated the refugees from what Europeans liked to call "Palestine," which at the time still thought of themselves more as Arabs than as Palestinians, the Palestinian nationalist movement being a comparatively minor (not to mention young) part of the general pro-Arab/pan-Arabist ideology dominating the Middle East at the time. Jordan is the most stable and prosperous of all these territories with large Palestinian concentrations, while the Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon are rife with chaos, places where every third sucker has his own militia and thusly the ability to ignite further bloodshed with his tiny splinter regardless of the major agreements made.
An Arab legacy, that. I do not deny that the Israelis have been far from forthcoming in solving these problems, in some cases likely excarcebating them, but the problem of militancy, illiteracy, poverty and chaos in Palestinian regions is for a very large and very important part the direct result of the machinations of Israel's pan-Arabist enemies and neighbors.
What is happening in Lebanon is thusly merely a state suffering from the going awry of one of its own little plots. A dangerous imitation, shall we say, of 1970 and 1975? Only time will tell. But what is sure is that al-Qa'ida has capitalized on its secular opponents' grandiose blunders in a most royal way.
Have you seen the "refugee camp"? It isn't a camp any more, it is a town.
Camp sounds so much more despairing though...and the "goal" is to get those people back on the land they rightfully owned until 1948 (:dizzy: ) so if you make it sound more "permanent" you are an enemy of the Palestinian people. It's probably their version of "why do you hate freedom."
:bling:Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Which makes the failure to integrate these unfortunate refugees and their descendants -- who probably consider themselves refugees from Palestine rather than Lebanese, Jordanians, or Egyptians -- into a semblance of stabilized relationship with their hosts even more tragic. The refugee camps/towns are hotbeds of terrorism, and for good reason. Desperate people act desperately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slyspy
I'm sure that while we can blame Israel for many things, the utter madness that was the latest invasion of Lebanon included, this event illustrates a more tragic side of "internal" Arab relations, the nuances of which most people in the West, I included, are almost universally ignorant of.
To me it sounds more like those people do not want to integrate because they still dream of going back to the wonderful country that is partly occupied by israeli soldiers and generally looks like a big mess.Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiochusIII
May be wrong, but I also wonder why the lebanese army is not allowed to enter the refugee camp/town/whatever? If they allow these people to live there, on lebanese land, and are then not allowed to enter(who does not allow that anyway? the UN? the NATO? the warsaw pact?), it's not wonder they just shoot into it if the people from inside shoot out of it.:dizzy2:
Someone said something like "why are you accusing Israel"?
Maybe because Israel support and protect dozens of war criminals, murderers and rapers.
Israel provide them safety because they are Jewish nationality.
Many people hate war criminals, murderers and rapers .... and everyone who support them.
Maybe thats why many people hate Israel?
Possible I suppose, though most people tend to be cheerfully ignorant of the details of what foreign governments are doing with criminals, extraditions, etc. I suspect that this is not the foremost issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by KrooK
At its core, its rather simple. The arabs living there felt it was their land to control and to use and to live in and that creating a state there, without their permission, was tantamount to theft. At its core, the whole thing is about "It's mine and I want it back."
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=769_1179725620
Video of the Lebanese army and police active in this "camp". Notice the large mass of civilians and the utter chaos in Lebanese ranks.
More like a city -- or, more properly said, an urban ghetto. Extremely high unemployment, poverty and stagnation are facts of life for the people living in these places.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slyspy
Because of immense political pressure coming from the major pan-Arabist states (Egypt and Syria) on Lebanon in the late '60s. Nasser, the leader of the junta in Egypt at the time, wanted the Lebanese to keep their hands off the Palestinians so they could arm themselves and conduct raids across the Israeli border without any obstruction by Beirut's forces, creating a second front in the fedayeen problem -- the first being that of the Gaza Strip, which was transformed into a giant ghetto full of Palestinian refugees being siphoned off for raiding forces by Egyptian authorities just about the moment the 1948 war ended.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
Lebanon (like Jordan before it), being tiny next to large Syria and giant Egypt, agreed. What they got in return was a state within a state, Arafat and his cronies (Sunnis and pan-Arabist secular socialists) terrorizing the (Shi'ite) locals and liquidating anybody who disagreed. (Shi'ite) Hezb'ollah's founding was a direct result of that, as was the Lebanese Civil War. Where Jordan, with its unitary Bedouin character, was able to crush Arafat in Black September, Lebanon, its government and politics divided along ethnic and religious lines as they were, was unable to do so. Thousands upon thousands of Arabs died as a result. So much for the united Arab cause, huh? And then we're still ignoring the ghetto-izing of hundreds of thousands of innocent Arabs from "Palestine" in a mere attempt to create ready tools for the struggle against the Jews.
:wall:Quote:
Originally Posted by KrooK
It never gets old, does it? Do you fear Israel because it's millions of Jews with mouths to speak and weapons to defend themselves? Because animal fear is the only plausible reason I can think of for you to go off on this cute little fact-free tirade of yours.
War criminals? Murderers? Rapists? The harboring of all of them? Perhaps you've mistaken Argentina and Israel or something. Or maybe you've forgotten the distinction between Jewish and Arab Semites. If not, then you, sir, should kindly shut your mouth. Facts do not equate to anti-Jewish, anti-Zionist, anti-Israeli hatred.
Maybe that baseless crap is why you hate Israel? :shame:Quote:
Originally Posted by KrooK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baba Ga'on
Although I agree with several points in your post, I find those elements problematic.
The arab populated areas have been dominated by European colonialists, following ottoman empire, following arab empire etc.
When decolonization occurred the populations did not find themselves being lybian or Palestinian or whatever, they had to build themselves a national feeling to become something else than a bunch of guys lost somewhere.
I think the situation of the Palestinians can be compared to that of the Algerians : a very loose national feeling existed before 1954 and the start of the independence war but it was far from being enough to form a nation. In 1962 at the end of the war Algeria had became a nation, despite its geographical, ethnic and cultural diversity. This was the result of both nationalist propaganda and military ‘police’ actions from the French army.
So claiming that what you describe is due to arabs is incorrect, it is due to the local situation at the time, the rising of secular arab rulers and to Israel. I do not think it is possible to extract Israel from the equation and I would say that, as a catalyser of the different ideologies that were developed in the area, Israel is the main factor in the situation that exists today in the middle east.
Be cautious in equating those three factors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baba Ga'on
I regard Zionists to be just as dangerous and unbalanced (and unbalancing) as any "pan-Arabist" or Islamist, and regard Israel as no more a reliable ally of the West than any of the Arab states.
Yet I do not hate Jews, nor do I believe that Israel as no right to exist.
Remember also that Israel has it's share of terrorists and killers just like most countries and, yes, it has protected them and even lauded them.
This hardly makes them unique of course.
Baba you are talking here about fear.
I do not fear telling my opinion.
For me Jews from Israel behave like cowards.
Many of them commited war crimes - just after ww2 or later.
Now they don't want admit that.
Furthermore they accuse of anti-semitism everyone who don't agree with this situation.
Nowaydays Jews seems to treat other nations, especially Poles, like people of 2nd cathegory.
I do not agree with it.
If you want call me anti-semite, yes I AM ANTI-SEMITE and I'm pround.
Because according to you being pro-semite means "treat Jew like someone better just because he is Jew".
Your anti-semitic
KrooK
edit- to express this more i made some word bold
Zionism and Pan-Arabism (or Islamic extremism for that matter) are not equivalent world views. It's serious misappropriation of intent to say "same-same" and equate them.
At it's core, Zionism is a belief in a Jewish homeland. That's it. A homeland. A right to their own little corner of the world where Jews can exist and not have to rely on Christians and Muslims to have mercy on them. Zionism is non-expansionist. There are no plans for Zionism to spread itself by emmigrating, or establishing Talmudic law in Washington D.C. or London, popular will be damned. Quite the opposite, they have a rather isolationist view of the world. Somehow, wanting their own autonomous state, after the Christian and Islamic nations have been so kind to Jews over the centuries, makes the entire nation terrorists and wicked. But we're not anti-Jewish or anything, we just want them to be happy to hang out in the nice little ghettoes we set up for them, the ungrateful wretches. :dizzy2:
Pan Arabism is a belief that all non-Jewish semitic peoples are superior to the rest of the people on the planet and at the end of the day, should rule over them. Yes, they focused on the oil rich states of the middle East, mainly as a means to power. But the goal was always a pan-Arabic globe.
Islamic extremism goes even further. In this world view, the entire world must be forced to convert to Islam and a Sharia-based caliphate established. Only those of Mohammed's bloodline are fit to be Imams and leaders. The rest of us, even after we've been forced to convert, will live as servants to the master race.
So, because we're talking about stinkingJewsIsraelis with a desire for a autonomous state (where non-Jews are welcome, mind you), we can equate Zionism with extremist movements bent on world conquest. This despite the fact that even though the most ardent of Zionists were content with the formation of the state of Israel (granted, according to the original boundaries laid out in Genesis, no state of Palestine). I think the vast majority of pro-Israeli views allow for a two-state solution. Last I checked, Hamas and even Fatah do not allow Israel to be drawn on maps. I understand that there are subtleties in the extemity of the hatred towards Israel between these two groups, but neither has acknowledged Israel's right to exist.
Saying that Zionism and Wahabism (or whatever you want to call the drive to establish the global caliphate that seems to be gaining momentum) are equivalent world views is a gross mischaracterization that only flies because we're talking about stinkingJewsIsraelis. But hey, I don't have anything against Jews, just Israelis. :dizzy2:
Edit: Yes, Zionism is a rather reactionary world view, and I certainly don't advocate the violent practices some of its more extreme adherents have used. I'm not trying to portray Israel as a nation of saints, or Zionists as blameless angels. My point is that to say Islam has Al Queda and Judaism has Zionism is a terribly flawed analogy that grossly misrepresents the goals and views of the two sub-populations.
B-but...I thought the Jews had treated the Polish like people of a 2nd category already for centuries, long before the terrible atrocities the Jews commited in WWII....? ~:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by KrooK
You're kidding right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Baba Ga'on
Sharon was only let of being convicted as a geonocidal maniac because the UN left it's manhood in a jar. Isreal has been led by War criminals since it's inception. You really need to get a new tag line as well. I am staunchly anti-Isreal, I reckon that Isreal is the cause of nearly all problems in the middle east, life would be better without it. But I am not anti-Jewish, give me a brake!:wall: So I am against a warmongering nation. So I think Zionism was terrible, well guess what? It was.
(takes deep breath)
Go ahead everyone, let it all out.
Also KrooK, doesnt it seem plausible that you dislike Isreal instead of the religion?
If that little diatribe is directed at my post above then thank you for your kind attention. Irrespective of this I would ask you to remove you clever little strike outs since they insult the reader and reflect badly on the author.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
I regard Zionists to be part of the problem in the Middle East, simple as. I would no more give a Zionist the time of day than I would an Islamist. Both are too tightly bound by their own ideals to operate in a realistic and reasonable manner.
A "warmongering nation?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar
In the first month of Israel's existence, it was invaded by every one of its Arab neighbors, whose goal was the eradication and/or enslavement of every Jew in Israel.
But I guess you're right. Israel is the source of all the trouble in the middle east. If those Arabs has been able to finish the the job back in '48, the region would no doubt be a Judenfrei paradise of islamic love and tolerance right now.
It wasn't specifcially focused at you, though parts of it were intended to address a point you were attempting to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slyspy
On other issues, Sly, I've got nothing but respect for you. But on this one, I have to call 'em like I see 'em. You cannot equate Zionism and Islamic extremism. David Ben Gurion never dreamed of the day of one world, all Jewish, all run from Jerusalem, and he certainly never made speeches about a world free from muslims or declaring that Arabs are descended from pigs. I'm not saying he was an angel, or that I agree with what he and the other Zionists did. But they're not even in the same sport, let alone league as the Islamic extremists, or the Pan Arabist movement for that matter.
With regards to the strikeouts, they were not specifically directed at you. But I do see a strong correlation between anti-Israeli sentiments and anti-Jewish sentiments. Again, not in your case. If you look hard enough, you'll see the walls between the two break down in the very discussion that preceeded my post. I have found that while being anti-Jew may not be socially acceptable, being anti-Israeli certainly is and many cover their former feelings up by attributing them to the latter. Again, this portion of my post was not directed at you, if you look through the thread, I began the convention prior to your post.
In many ways, the people that rant and rave about Israel but say they have nothing against Jews remind me of whites in the American south during the civil rights movement... "I've got no problems with black people. Some of my favorite people are black. I just don't know why they have to go around stirring up all this trouble with talk about voting and riding on busses and such". Sure, they would tell you that they're not racist, but that doesn't necessarily make it so.
You presumably conscious ignorance of the developements already long before '48 amazes me slightly, Goof.
Do you try speaking that way to people in real life, Watchman?
Sometimes, yes.
You presumably conscious ignorance of Goofs knowledge on the topic amazes me slightly Watchman :laugh4:Quote:
You presumably conscious ignorance of the developements already long before '48 amazes me slightly, Goof.
You don't think that the terror tactics and conquest employed by the zionists before they declared themselves a nation might be the root of the problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofball
Isreal should never had been allowed to exist.
Hey, I work by what I see posted. I don't maintain a database on you guys after all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Although looking at it, "ignoring" would seem to work better than "ignorance". Ah, the joys of hindsight. :shame: