Which was a perfectly reasonable position in Mediaeval Europe, or Ancient Greece.
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Which was a perfectly reasonable position in Mediaeval Europe, or Ancient Greece.
My morals contradicts every religion I know of. So yes, I am able to form opinions that haven't been drilled into me from birth. Besides, there is a difference between learning morals from a religion, and from a society. The former is set in stone, the latter is changing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Uhm, no, they cannot. They can deal with the very basics, not the complicated stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Again, "uhm, no". I prefer either socialist or agnostic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
That's philosophy for you. Perhaps your dinner table doesn't exist when you don't look at it? Perhaps things only exist in your own mind?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaknafien
There's only one way to debate people who claim all exists only in their imagination: kick them in the crotch, then ask them why they hate themself so much!
Actually morals don't change, you reject old morals and take up modified ones. Changing morals are moral.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
You're not any smarter than they are and you don't know any better, you just have too much time on your hands to think about these things.Quote:
Uhm, no, they cannot. They can deal with the very basics, not the complicated stuff.
I doubt you can support that claim.Quote:
My morals contradicts every religion I know of. So yes, I am able to form opinions that haven't been drilled into me from birth
Not much really. In many cases their the same. In fact Id venture in most. And do we still sacrifice people to the sun god? Do we still worship Thor and Odin or Odin? Religion evolves just like everything else that deals with human endeavor . Nothing is written in stone and even if it were there is still the matter of erosion.Quote:
Besides, there is a difference between learning morals from a religion, and from a society. The former is set in stone, the latter is changing.
Some people still do. How can you say your religion is superior to those who worship the Aesir? Hell, some people still worship Jupiter and Venus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
They do? :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaknafien
You can call religions better than each other like this example
-based on morality
-which morals you live by. Which ever points out the way to live by on those morals the most wins.
Other than that no way to...
So Columbus actually arrived in east India?
I mean he had the empirical data from his route, the logic that the world is round and the knowledge(following out of his logic) that India had to be west of Europe, thus he arrived in east India.:idea2:
It's funny how all religious people are stupid when most of my friends in church actually study at universities, including myself.
Oh wait, that's not a measurement anyway, we'll have to go by the rule of "those who don't believe what I believe are stupid because I say so and I cannot err".
Please allow me to retreat into the corner of shame and stupidity now.:clock:
well if you believe a giant invisible old man with a beard created the universe just for you because you're special...
Who say's he's giant, old or has a beard?
:juggle2:
heh. Uh, this?
EDIT: Removed picture of Terry Gilliam's god from Monty Python and the Holy Grail
Please note: If you want to post pictures, you must host them yourself, not link directly to a web site.
BG
"Though Shalt not make thyself an Idol or any graven Image"
:oops:
:laugh4:
EDIT: Removed Zaknafien's picture. BG
Somebodies been watching too many episodes of South Park :laugh4:
You mean Monty Python.
Christianity has been changing, and for a perfect example the idea of a Christian god being
-Old
-Bearded
-Caucasian
Those are all the symbols of the Roman god Jupiter, who was adapted for the Christian religion. The god Jupiter, adapted from the god Zeus of Greek mythology, adapted from either the Celtic gods or an Asian god.
Completely invalid statements crossed out. Dubious ones italicised.Quote:
here I shall briefly summarize how science is superior to religion in terms of improving the lives, health, and welfare of humanity on a very basic level and all around the world. If man did not question the foolishness of religion and turn to science,we'd still believe the earth was flat, the sun revolved around the earth,flies came from god's displeasure, diseases are caused by the same, etc, etc etc.
1) The flat earth thing is a myth invented by Washington Irving. Notable members of the medieval clergy did know and stated that it was spherical.
2) As I recall, in the book of Job, disease is attributed to Satan's work as an attempt to turn man against God, not God's displeasure.
3) It isn't stated (afaik) in the bible that the sun revolves around the earth. This isn't about questioning religion, but about questioning a widely held view.
So, you're prepared to ignore the amount of positive welfare work done by Christians and other religious groups because of their faith? Similarly, there are civil rights and anti-violence movements initiated frequently by the religious.
Communication/Community
These new technologies have also wrecked the traditional communities in many places and are resulting (according to some) in a decline in physical fitness and social skills. This seems to coincide with a rise in crime rate. I know some people who, because of faith and religion, have given up drugs, changed from a violent past and recovered their lives. This is a hell of a lot more important to the community than having more luxury goods with annoying adverts. Additionally, the church itself is a community, which actively does things to help people. Something I doubt most fora do (no insult intended to fora. I love them). Another community influence you could suggest is that people are inspired by religion to produce superior cultural works.
Food
Having excess food in the hands of the middle class isn't exactly as important to the beggars on the streets of Leamington as having dedicated people working to help feed them. Science isn't helping the people who need more food get more food, it's providing a luxury more cheaply.
Science also results in Asian people accidentally starving themselves by spending 45,613,892 hours in a row on World of Warcraft. Should we hold science responsible for these deaths?
Human longevity:
1 - what's the importance of said longevity, if there's no point to it? Senility isn't pleasant (at best embarrassing, at worst maddening), and presumably this longevity contributes to it.
2 - 'whoever believes in me will not perish but receive eternal life' (roughly John 3:16 or something like that. Could have the verse or chapter number off.
If Christianity is right, then it is contributing far, far more vastly to human longevity than any science.
Fighting Disease
Largely irrelevant if the previous quote from John 3:16 is taken into account as fact.
New materials
Yes, useful new materials, for things like killing people. New material production was never hindered by religion and is entirely seperate to it.
'If God is able to prevent evil but is not willing to prevent evil, then he is not benevolent.'
Alternatively, he wants people with personalities and with freedom of choice. If he takes away those choices to prevent evil, noone can choose the right thing and thus be good and thus fit to enter the kingdom of heaven.
If you have an eternal life in heaven, then you have a QOL higher than anything science could possibly give you. If you approach something from the assumption that a religion is right, rather than that it is wrong, then religion trumps science.Quote:
It can be argued that there is much more to life than improved sanitation, improved hygiene, fighting disease, increased food production, new materials for building things, improved communication, and so forth. On the other hand, there isn't nearly as much life without those things — and those who are alive will have to endure more hardship and suffering as well. The ability of science to improve the very basic necessities of life is without question.The fact that religion doesn't even come close is also without question.
However, the two can, and do, coexist, and compliment each other and do not need to be compared.
I would say that religion is more important than science, because of the eternal salvation idea.
'Communication & Community:
People today can communicate with each other across vast distances in ways that would have been unimaginable just a few decades ago. This facilitates not only the transmission of useful information, but also the development of new and dynamic human communities. All of this is possible through the use of science to create new technology. Religion has made great use of these abilities, but has contributed nothing to their basic development.'
Which has resulted in the decline of the traditional community. Additionally, the improved communications have led to a far greater scale in modern slaughters/genocides/terrorism than ancient ones.
You mean like the printing press ? :laugh4:Quote:
Religion has made great use of these abilities, but has contributed nothing to their basic development.'
I have a doctor to cure me when I'm sick, and that doctor has a scientist to come up with the thing he needs to cure me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
As for an example to the moral issue, I don't know of any religion who promotes promiscuity, homosexuality, the rejection of the family and marriage. I do.
And this differs from a witch doctor how?Quote:
I have a doctor to cure me when I'm sick, and that doctor has a scientist to come up with the thing he needs to cure me.
uh, because it generally works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
So do many of the witch doctors cures.
Come on. Seriously? Are you seriously comparing witch doctors to modern medicine? :laugh4:
Yes I am. We just heard people , I believe even yourself say that science is looking into these things. Where do you think a lot of cures come from? Again your making my point. If its not our science its junk.
Wow, a real lovely thread here.
My toss into the mix. I don't see any valid reason for religion. Many, many, people lead very good, productive, peaceful, and fulfilling lives without the need for any kind of 'religion'. As for the concept of a soul, suffice to say I do not believe one exists, and as much as I'd like to believe in some concept of an afterlife, I have seen and read nothing in my many years that remotely leads me to this conclusion, in fact it's lead me more towards the opposite.
As for being a part of the "church of science", if that's what people choose to categorize it as then so be it. As for my 'god'... I can touch my god, understand it, interact with it, test and verify it. I believe in the power of the human mind and it's will and ability to understand and learn, and to reject old broken ways and means as they become obsolete or disproved as we progress. I believe that mankind has the ability to learn from past mistakes, and be kind/understanding to each other WITHOUT the need for made-up fairy tales and superstition. THIS is my faith. I can show you my faith, demonstrate it to you. Can you all say the same? Please spare me the peanut butter, banana, and "just look around you" arguments in advance. ~;)
Cheers all
God gives you eternal life and I haven't needed a doctor for about a decade. Not that I'm saying medicine isn't important, it is, but it's hardly top of my list. You might also want to think about the impetus behind the hippocratic oath.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
As far as the moral issue I have to say I can't see any actual morals in your post. Given that morals are generally rules to live by and you are rejecting the traditional moral outlook I'm more concerned to know what you're replacing it with.
Zak: Shame on you, you wrote our Roman medical descriptions. You know that most traditional cures have some basis in fact.
[Tongue in cheek]:
Yeah.. tell that to those women that died in childbirth by the hands of scientists… as for the religious midwifes who knew to wash… this was another story.Quote:
Sanitation & Cleanliness:
What has religion done in the past millennia to improve sanitation and cleanliness? Little to nothing. Science, however, has informed us of the ways in which disease can be spread through improperly handled water and poor hygiene. Science has also provided the tools to make water safer to drink and to clean up both ourselves and our surroundings to greatly reduce the risk of disease. Countless people have been saved from sickness and death through this information.
Bollocks… by the laying on of hands and by utilizing the priesthood they brought back the dead…Quote:
Fighting Disease:
Disease in general is not something which religion has helped fight; on the contrary, myths about the origins of disease have only made things worse. Science, however, has identified the bacteria and viruses which cause disease, how they work, how to fight them, and more. Through evolutionary theory we know that the fight against pathogens is endless because they will constantly evolve, but science gives us the tools to continue the fight with. Religion does not and often inhibit the effort.
Heh… who lived to see 900 years? Not the people of science.Quote:
Human Longevity:
Humans today live much longer on average than they used to, with the longest lives occurring in the industrialized West. This is not a coincidence: it is due to the use of science to fight disease, improve hygiene, and most importantly to improve the chances of survival in childhood. People are living longer because they use science to better understand and manipulate the world around them. Religion has not contributed to this.
Bah… In the blinking of an eye, prophets could hie to Kolob and call down Angels from across the multiverse.Quote:
Communication & Community:
People today can communicate with each other across vast distances in ways that would have been unimaginable just a few decades ago. This facilitates not only the transmission of useful information, but also the development of new and dynamic human communities. All of this is possible through the use of science to create new technology. Religion has made great use of these abilities, but has contributed nothing to their basic development.
Balls.. who took five bread and two fishes and fed 5000?Quote:
Food Production & Distribution:
People need to eat to survive, and while religion might encourage giving food to those who need it most, it does nothing to help grow more of it and more efficiently. Humans have used basic scientific tools to improve food production for millennia, but in recent times that has increased geometrically through the use of chemical analysis, satellite records, and even genetic manipulation. Science makes it possible to feed more people more efficiently with less land.
Yeah right… And who made the elements?Quote:
New Materials:
Everything we make must be made from some raw material. In the past the options were limited; today, however, there is a wealth of materials that are lighter, stronger, and often better than what was available before. Religion did not create plastics, carbon fiber, or even steel. Science and the scientific method allow people to develop new materials for new tasks, making it possible to do so much that we take for granted today.
Right… and were does these spirit children come from? And who made the woman out of a rib?Quote:
Understanding Sexuality & Reproduction:
Science has provided invaluable insights into how human sexuality and reproduction work. We understand not only how and why things function, but also how and why they fail to function. This makes it possible to correct for errors and for people who previously were unable to have children to now successfully do so. Religion not only has not contributed to this, but in the past it has inhibited our understanding through myths and fables.
The position is clear… We are the children of God and it is to his kingdom we return.. at least those who believe. The rest of you heathens will live on the darkside of the moon… Forever!!Quote:
Understanding Our Real Place in the Universe:
It should go without saying that we cannot improve our position if we don't know what that position really is. Science has provided tremendous information about our place in nature, about our planet's place in the solar system, and about our galaxy's place in the universe. There is much to learn, but what we know already has been put to great use. Religion has only ever offered myths, all of which have proven to be wrong and misleading.
[/Tounge in cheek]
Yes, people in Africa don't need antibiotics, or vaccinations, or anti-retroviral drugs to fight aids, or modern obstetric care! They've got their witch doctors and traditional tribal medicine, and it would clearly be an example of evil cultural hegemony to "impose" our own practices on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
You'll be telling me you think homeopathy works next.
Homeopathy is placebo at best, but there are certainly traditional cures that work. The witchdoctor just has little or no knowledge of why it works or if it could work better. There could be unnecessary components because of that old tradition, either unnecessary or creating harmful side effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big King Sanctaphrax
That's one reason for science checking out old cures. You might find some refinable drug to make money on and save people.
Medicine is after food the most important thing for us. Without it, we die. The reason we live longer today, is because of medicine. As for eternal life, that will only happen if you choose the correct god, won't it? If Islam is the correct one, for example, then you'll probably burn in hell for an eternity...Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Well, I thought it would be fairly obvious that my morals say that sex is good, any time, any place, with anyone. I don't know of a single religion who doesn't put great restrictions on sex. The only restriction I have, is that all those involved consent to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Then may I suggest that your a degenerate :laugh4: Seriously you dont see the fallacy in that position? If you follow your morals you will wind up in jail for one thing.Quote:
Well, I thought it would be fairly obvious that my morals say that sex is good, any time, any place, with anyone.