Mohamed Haneef case

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My view of immigration is that it is the individuals responsibility to integrate with the country they want to go to, I also believe it is the countries responsibility to ensure the safety of its citizens, this means that if they have any inclination that someone should be allowed in or sent home then that is good enough. This would be tempered in the department by the needs of the country for skilled people, it has nothing to do with courts or law.

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I guess you haven't been keeping up with this particular case, then, as it has everything to do with courts and law. The decision to detain the accused was only taken after a legally sanctioned court upheld a bail appeal; the timing was such that it can be constructed as no less than an attempt to circumvent proper judicial procedure.

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And the fact is that they may have proof to support the evidence to send him home, I'm sure no-one, not even Tribesman, knows all the details of this case.

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If they had conclusive proof, they would not have lost the bail appeal; nor had the case dropped by the DPP as unwinnable.

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Originally Posted by sapi

I guess you haven't been keeping up with this particular case, then, as it has everything to do with courts and law. The decision to detain the accused was only taken after a legally sanctioned court upheld a bail appeal; the timing was such that it can be constructed as no less than an attempt to circumvent proper judicial procedure.

If they had conclusive proof, they would not have lost the bail appeal; nor had the case dropped by the DPP as unwinnable.

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No, I haven't been keeping up, my comments are how I would run it if it were my country.

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Originally Posted by Ja'chyra

Quite right, deport him.

This isn't a court of law this is a country's immigration policy that is purely the concern of that country. If they have any reason at all to suspect him of being a danger he should be kicked out, I just wish our politicians had the backbone to do this too.

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How is this about an Immigration Policy? This IS a decision for the courts. Even Howard, the Fascist he is, admits that it is a matter for the Courts to decide.

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I agree. I wasn't aware of any burden of proof for deportation. If a country knows someone is a threat- prosecute them. (the government seems to have dropped the ball there) But if they think he's a threat, why not deport him? Certainly you're stuck with your own citizens, but I don't see why they'd renew a visa for a person they think may have any sort of ties at all to terrorism.

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He has as much right as anyone else in this world to live where he chooses. He chose here, we should be proud of that. It has been shown that he isn't really a credible threat (though the Police claim to have "special evidence"... I am somewhat unsure as to what that could possibly contain...)

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Anyway I still think Queensland is cool ! Australia is cool overall, it HAS TO BE a cool place !

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No way could Queensland stack up against New South, but I think I am outnumbered on these boards, so I shall remain silent on the subject...:wink:

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My view of immigration is that it is the individuals responsibility to integrate with the country they want to go to, I also believe it is the countries responsibility to ensure the safety of its citizens, this means that if they have any inclination that someone should be allowed in or sent home then that is good enough. This would be tempered in the department by the needs of the country for skilled people, it has nothing to do with courts or law.

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Noone should have to give up their culture for some lines on a map and a piece of cloth on a flag pole.

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And the fact is that they may have proof to support the evidence to send him home, I'm sure no-one, not even Tribesman, knows all the details of this case.

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If they have the truth, why don't they release it and let the Public know?

Queensland has Surfer's Paradise ! ;)

On topic... I guess I should write my view. In essence I agree with you guys. If the person hasn't done anything illegal why should he have to leave. If through CORRECT LEGAL & PUBLIC INQUIRY the person is found guilty of threatening the order of the country, that person should be tried and (if proven guilty) convicted. This case is a signal that the government is itself acting outside established legal, moral and ethical limits. the whole case is major public relations disaster, all encouraged and instigated by the government. This will scare away good people, they'll go somewhere else. There is a limit to what any country can achieve without regular, controlled, and assimilated immigration.

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No, I haven't been keeping up, my comments are how I would run it if it were my country.

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:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

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I'm sure no-one, not even Tribesman, knows all the details of this case.

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As opposed to someone who appeared to know no details of the case~:doh:

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On topic... I guess I should write my view. In essence I agree with you guys. If the person hasn't done anything illegal why should he have to leave. If through CORRECT LEGAL & PUBLIC INQUIRY the person is found guilty of threatening the order of the country, that person should be tried and (if proven guilty) convicted. This case is a signal that the government is itself acting outside established legal, moral and ethical limits. the whole case is major public relations disaster, all encouraged and instigated by the government. This will scare away good people, they'll go somewhere else. There is a limit to what any country can achieve without regular, controlled, and assimilated immigration.

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I don't know, I disagree with this point somewhat. I am completely for immigration on huge levels (I mean, it is just land, right?) but I don't think that assimilating these Migrants is necessary at all. If they want to live here, they shouldn't have to give up our culture.

So what do people think this will do for Johnny H's votes? Does he gain votes for again showing he is tough on 'Terrorists' and 'Human Rights', or does he lose votes because he bungled it? I'm unsure. The Average Australian will probably applaud him for it.

They should'nt have to give up their culture. Assimilation and integration simply means that immigrants, with a view to long term settlement, should be well integrated into the society, forming an integral part of it's fabric.

Then we are agreed, they should form an integral part of society.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

I don't know, I disagree with this point somewhat. I am completely for immigration on huge levels (I mean, it is just land, right?) but I don't think that assimilating these Migrants is necessary at all. If they want to live here, they shouldn't have to give up our culture.

So what do people think this will do for Johnny H's votes? Does he gain votes for again showing he is tough on 'Terrorists' and 'Human Rights', or does he lose votes because he bungled it? I'm unsure. The Average Australian will probably applaud him for it.

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Depends on what happens during APEC, I think.

If things run smoothly there, this will look like an overreaction.

If, as I suspect, something goes wrong with regards to an attack, this will look like a prudent decision as part of a mission to keep Australia safe...[insert Liberal rhetoric here]

As for the immigration issue, I strongly disagree with you on the issue of assimilation.

By no means should anyone have to give up their culture, but they should have to have a passing knowledge and understanding of ours, or at least attempt to achieve that.

A citizenship test is ridiculous, but opening the floodgates of immigration is simply never going to happen (think one nation: our current anti-asia policies are in place for one reason - public opinion), no matter how much some may like it.

I hear Naru is nice this time of year :wall:

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Originally Posted by CountArach

He has as much right as anyone else in this world to live where he chooses.

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Exactly- none. :wink:

Bottom line guys,

There are two separate things going on here.

The fact they didn't have enough take him to court on the grounds of terrorism is completely different than assessing him under visa regulations as suitable.

Visa regulations are some of the most manipulated set of guidelines anywhere in the world.

They couldn't create a case against him on the legal side but they sure can categories him as "undesirable" in the realm of immigration.

Hence he's out.

In general there has been a slow but deliberate shift to toughen up on all these types of things over the last 10 years.

Boat people, immigration, terrorism law etc etc.

Personally, I'd prefer to have this type of thing happen.

If people want to screw around on these types of topics in Australia, then there's not a lot of thinking music going on...You're Gone. And I think it much better for everyone out there to realise that.

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If things run smoothly there, this will look like an overreaction.

If, as I suspect, something goes wrong with regards to an attack, this will look like a prudent decision as part of a mission to keep Australia safe...[insert Liberal rhetoric here]

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Yeah fair enough. I really hope that we don' get struck, especially at that time. But then again, there is so much security that day that a lot of things could easily be avoided. For example, APEC is a Public Holiday here and a lot of the main streets around it will be blocked off. The military will be called in to clear out overlooking buildings (I have a mate who is in the Reserve, so he passed that on to me).

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By no means should anyone have to give up their culture, but they should have to have a passing knowledge and understanding of ours, or at least attempt to achieve that.

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This makes the unfortunate assumption that our Culture is better than theirs. It isn't.

Also there is no definite view of what Australia is. Oh, wait there is... Multiculturalism. :wink:

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A citizenship test is ridiculous, but opening the floodgates of immigration is simply never going to happen (think one nation: our current anti-asia policies are in place for one reason - public opinion), no matter how much some may like it.

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Just my opinion. I am aware it will probably never happen (At least not for a very long time... pretty much when the Greens finally come into office...), but I would like to think that Australia will get over its deep rooted Xenophobia.

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Exactly- none. :wink:

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I'm hoping that was tongue in cheek...

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Personally, I'd prefer to have this type of thing happen.

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but why? The vast majority of these people pose no credible threat at all to our country. Oh, I'm sure that that Vietnamese farmer will plot to bomb Sydeny Harbour...

The only reason that this is occuring is that people are willing to let their vote be swayed by their fears, or rather, what they are told are their fears.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

I'm hoping that was tongue in cheek...

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You have absolutely no "right" to live wherever you want on the planet. Even in your own country there are places that would be prohibited- let alone trying to get into another country and live there.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

but why? The vast majority of these people pose no credible threat at all to our country. Oh, I'm sure that that Vietnamese farmer will plot to bomb Sydeny Harbour...

The only reason that this is occuring is that people are willing to let their vote be swayed by their fears, or rather, what they are told are their fears.

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I'd prefer this to happen because if the AFP have enough to go on to arrest him in the first place, and then make a further decision to have him leave, then there is more than a sucpision taking place.

I'd like people in the AFP to be conservative in their approach.

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You have absolutely no "right" to live wherever you want on the planet. Even in your own country there are places that would be prohibited- let alone trying to get into another country and live there.

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So much for the freedom of movement that came with abolution of Feudalism.

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I'd prefer this to happen because if the AFP have enough to go on to arrest him in the first place, and then make a further decision to have him leave, then there is more than a sucpision taking place.

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If they had enough to go on, why did the court not find him guilty?

There's a big difference between an arrest and a conviction.

Maybe it was a technicality, maybe something else. I don't know and no one really will.

I'm going to make a stand and stand-up for poor old Johnny, at least he knows how to run the economy. I'd have to say that thanks to his Government we actually avoided following the US into a recession. And I personally wouldn't ever put my money in the hands of the Labor party, (just take a look at our excellent train system and wondrous budget surplus in NSW thanks to good old honest Bob Carr) the truth be told Carr was the worst thing that ever happened to this State. And although I don't agree with anything any politician ever says because it's always bollox, I'd rather not trust money in the hands of such an incompetent git as Rudd. And every time we get some Labor boffin we slide back three centuries.

On topic: Nobody was hurt in the UK, and if he really was part of the organisation his bosses wouldn't be to happy that it failed so I'm sure he'd get enough punishment from them.

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This makes the unfortunate assumption that our Culture is better than theirs. It isn't.

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Actually, it makes the assumption that Australia is a nation built on Australian culture.

Funny, that ~:)

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Also there is no definite view of what Australia is. Oh, wait there is... Multiculturalism.

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I beg to differ, but anyways - the reality of that misconception is not the subject of this discussion...

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Originally Posted by AussieGiant

I'd prefer this to happen because if the AFP have enough to go on to arrest him in the first place, and then make a further decision to have him leave, then there is more than a sucpision taking place.

I'd like people in the AFP to be conservative in their approach.

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Originally Posted by AussieGiant

There's a big difference between an arrest and a conviction.

Maybe it was a technicality, maybe something else. I don't know and no one really will.

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I guess you're another person who hasn't kept up on the case?

The evidence that Haneef was arrested on - finding his SIM card in the Glasgow jeep bomb - turned out to be, for lack of a better term, utter :daisy:.

It's a bit hard to maintain a case, legal or otherwise, when your main piece of proof turned out to be non-existent.

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I'm going to make a stand and stand-up for poor old Johnny, at least he knows how to run the economy. I'd have to say that thanks to his Government we actually avoided following the US into a recession. And I personally wouldn't ever put my money in the hands of the Labor party, (just take a look at our excellent train system and wondrous budget surplus in NSW thanks to good old honest Bob Carr) the truth be told Carr was the worst thing that ever happened to this State. And although I don't agree with anything any politician ever says because it's always bollox, I'd rather not trust money in the hands of such an incompetent git as Rudd. And every time we get some Labor boffin we slide back three centuries.

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:laugh4:

• The US is not in a recession, nor is it likely to enter one this year
• You do realise that since the state governments do not get direct tax revenue, a significant part of their budget comes from the federal government?
• You do realise that you're buying exactly what the new ad scheme from howard is saying (trust us, not the states) when it's for a different level of government?
• At least in sliding back three centuries, we recognised that china existed :grin2:

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I guess you're another person who hasn't kept up on the case?

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:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

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The evidence that Haneef was arrested on - finding his SIM card in the Glasgow jeep bomb - turned out to be, for lack of a better term, utter .

It's a bit hard to maintain a case, legal or otherwise, when your main piece of proof turned out to be non-existent.

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Awwww come on Sapi , it wasn't the only evidence , he shared a house with the bloke who drove the jeep that didn't have the other piece of evidence in .....oh ...that turned out to be utter:daisy: too .

Sooooo.... a quick summary for those who didn't follow the case....a bloke is leaving the country , he is stopped because of some "evidence" , the "evidence" turns out to be utterly fabricated , the result is that he leaves the country .

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Originally Posted by sapi

You do realise that since the state governments do not get direct tax revenue, a significant part of their budget comes from the federal government?

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And being in NSW we get less put back in than is taken out, and with a Labor Federal government you can't seriously expect that NSW will get more or even the same amount than it does now.

That's why I don't get into politics, because all politicians are scum.

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Originally Posted by sapi

You do realise that you're buying exactly what the new ad scheme from howard is saying (trust us, not the states) when it's for a different level of government?

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Haven't seen them.

Haneef's visa ban has been overturned. Justice is served ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6956113.stm

:2thumbsup: So they could have revoked the visa under different rules at the time , but now since he is not under suspicion by the British police they cannot use them other rules:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: