Re: 11 year old shot in Liverpool
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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
So, we shouldn't use guns to defend ourselves, because we might do so effectively, and therefore kill this murderer?
That's a matter of your worldview.
You sounded like a lot of guns could prevent deaths, I just said that they don't prevent them, they result in more deaths, be they innocent dead people or not.
Whether you think shooting a deluded teenager who turned into a murderer depends on your worldview and maybe the circumstances. As long as you can reduce the guy to being a murderer, it's always easy, but he probably has a life, friends and family just like his victims. We don't even know why he shot the young boy. I'm not trying to victimize him or say he shouldn't be punished, I just think that shooting him on the spot is IMO not always the best thing one can do all things considered. Though if someone shot him that would be ok with me as well, he kinda asked for it.:sweatdrop:
Re: 11 year old shot in Liverpool
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Originally Posted by Sir Moody
While the laws are strict the guns are availble and sold - the UK is a complete ban on handguns - they cant be sold and they cant be owned
...legally. The problem is that the vast majority of gun related crime is carried out with illegally acquired weapons usually smuggled in from abroad and sold on the street. Despite the ban on handguns, and handguns were already banned, the last ban affected target pistols mainly and thus ineffectual, gun grime is on the rise, as is knife related crime. Passing laws won't solve this problem as it's a cultural one.
Re: 11 year old shot in Liverpool
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Originally Posted by Caravel
...legally. The problem is that the vast majority of gun related crime is carried out with illegally acquired weapons usually smuggled in from abroad and sold on the street. Despite the ban on handguns, and handguns were already banned, the last ban affected target pistols mainly and thus ineffectual, gun grime is on the rise, as is knife related crime. Passing laws won't solve this problem as it's a cultural one.
Why would US citizens bother with getting an illegal gun when they can just get one legally? Is the black market cheaper, or what?
Anyway, with a complete ban on guns, the black market would feel the sting of the first rule of capitalism: Lower availability = higher prices. The black market would then have a complete monopoly on guns, and prices would soar. And when things get more expensive, fewer can get them.
Sometimes I love capitalism...
Re: 11 year old shot in Liverpool
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Originally Posted by HoreTore
Why would US citizens bother with getting an illegal gun when they can just get one legally? Is the black market cheaper, or what?
Only criminals would get a gun illegally in the US. There's no reason for a non criminal to.
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Anyway, with a complete ban on guns, the black market would feel the sting of the first rule of capitalism: Lower availability = higher prices. The black market would then have a complete monopoly on guns, and prices would soar. And when things get more expensive, fewer can get them.
Sometimes I love capitalism...
Only higher prices for a short while, until illegal sources got into full swing. Consider drugs, and the vast resources put into eradicating it. But have the prices steadily gotten higher over the years, or have the smugglers just gotten better?
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The point of gun control is to MINIMIZE these incidents. And it's doing that wonderfully. 58 deaths a year according to sir moody, with a population of 60-70(?) million, that's nothing. Absolutely nothing.
It is a significant increase over last year.
CR
Re: 11 year old shot in Liverpool
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Only criminals would get a gun illegally in the US. There's no reason for a non criminal to.
Is there a reason why a criminal would want an illegal one instead of a legal one if he decides to rob the local gas station?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Only higher prices for a short while, until illegal sources got into full swing. Consider drugs, and the vast resources put into eradicating it. But have the prices steadily gotten higher over the years, or have the smugglers just gotten better?
If you haven't noticed it, there has been a dramatic increase in drug production, Afghanistan to name one. As such the comparison doesn't prove anything.
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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
It is a significant increase over last year.
No, it has not. What was the number for the previous year? 50? An extra 8 isn't a significant increase, it's nothing.
Re: 11 year old shot in Liverpool
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Is there a reason why a criminal would want an illegal one instead of a legal one if he decides to rob the local gas station?
Yes.
Re: 11 year old shot in Liverpool
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Originally Posted by Geoffrey S
Yes.
Care to explain why...?
Re: 11 year old shot in Liverpool
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Is there a reason why a criminal would want an illegal one instead of a legal one if he decides to rob the local gas station?
A person with a felony on their record can't legally get a handgun (or any gun).
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If you haven't noticed it, there has been a dramatic increase in drug production, Afghanistan to name one. As such the comparison doesn't prove anything.
And what's to say there won't be a dramatic increase in black market guns made or imported, or conversion of replica guns? The comparison proves a lot, and it's useless to ignore it to try and justify gun control.
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No, it has not. What was the number for the previous year? 50? An extra 8 isn't a significant increase, it's nothing.
It was 49 for the whole year, only 58 so far this year.
Assuming the monthly rate is steady, that means (12/8) * 58 = 87
(87-49) / (49) * 100 = 78% increase
Is that nothing?
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The point of gun control is to MINIMIZE these incidents. And it's doing that wonderfully.
The point, as I understand it, is to limit the number of guns in a country. Now, if guns are hard to get, would some punk kid on a bike use one to shoot at some teenagers and a 11 year old? How many incidents like this happened ten years ago?
Even the Observer says
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Crime rate soars as criminals walk free
Observer investigation reveals Labour failure to halt slide in convictions
David Rose
Sunday May 28, 2006
The Observer
The true picture of rising levels of violent crime in England and Wales and historically low conviction rates can be revealed today by The Observer.
An investigation shows that conviction rates for many of the most violent crimes have been in freefall since Labour came to power in 1997 and are now well below 10 per cent. The chronically low figures for convictions come at the same time as reports that violent crime is increasing.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_ne...784623,00.html
CR
Re: 11 year old shot in Liverpool
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
A person with a felony on their record can't legally get a handgun (or any gun).
Ah, but this guy in question hasn't been arrested for anything yet, so he can buy one legally. Why should he want an illegal one?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
It was 49 for the whole year, only 58 so far this year.
Assuming the monthly rate is steady, that means (12/8) * 58 = 87
(87-49) / (49) * 100 = 78% increase
Is that nothing?
Yes, that is nothing. When we are dealing with figures as low as this, they go up and down frequently. It could just as easily be 25 next year, even if nobody does anything(although the politicians in charge will of course say otherwise...).
However, if the number was 49 last year, 70 this year, 150 next year and 1000 in 5 years, then we can talk. So far it's nothing. And there's certainly no need to get a gun to protect anything. The odds of getting killed is about as high as getting struck by lightning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
The point, as I understand it, is to limit the number of guns in a country. Now, if guns are hard to get, would some punk kid on a bike use one to shoot at some teenagers and a 11 year old? How many incidents like this happened ten years ago?
Maybe one or two, like now?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Yes, and tabloids never make their headlines and articles....tabloid...
Re: 11 year old shot in Liverpool
Crazed Rabbit: the gun related deaths are for financial years, not calendar years. The 58 statistic was for 2006/7, which is over now.
These are the recent figures:
1997/98: 54
1998/99: 49
1999/00: 62
2000/01: 72
2001/02: 95
2002/03: 80
2003/04: 68
2004/05: 77
2005/06: 49
2006/07: 58
First hit on google also threw up these figures:
Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):
Homicide Suicide Unintentional
USA 4.08 (1999) 6.08 (1999) 0.42 (1999)
Canada 0.54 (1999) 2.65 (1997) 0.15 (1997)
Switzerland 0.50 (1999) 5.78 (1998) -
Scotland 0.12 (1999) 0.27 (1999) -
England/Wales 0.12 (1999/00) 0.22 (1999) 0.01 (1999)
Japan 0.04* (1998) 0.04 (1995) <0.01 (1997)
* Homicide & attempted homicide by handgun
Data collected by Philip Alpers, Harvard Injury Control Research Center, and HELP Network
Additional data can be found in Table A.10 of the World Report on Violence and Health, published by the World Health Organization on 3 October 2002.
Re: 11 year old shot in Liverpool
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Ah, but this guy in question hasn't been arrested for anything yet, so he can buy one legally. Why should he want an illegal one?
In that case, very unlikely I'd point out, he would have no reason to prefer an illegal gun, except in states that ban or heavily regulate handgun ownership, or keep records on firearms bought (many states).
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Yes, that is nothing. When we are dealing with figures as low as this, they go up and down frequently. It could just as easily be 25 next year, even if nobody does anything(although the politicians in charge will of course say otherwise...).
The fact that American violent crime is generally decreasing, whilst British violent crime is trending oppositely, holds true, though.
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However, if the number was 49 last year, 70 this year, 150 next year and 1000 in 5 years, then we can talk. So far it's nothing. And there's certainly no need to get a gun to protect anything. The odds of getting killed is about as high as getting struck by lightning.
Are the odds of getting robbed or attacked in your home so low? I think not...
CR
Re: 11 year old shot in Liverpool
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
The fact that American violent crime is generally decreasing, whilst British violent crime is trending oppositely, holds true, though.
As econ21, the Champion of google, showed, it does not. If you want to make a statistic out of those numbers(though it wouldn't have a point, as the numbers are too low), gun crime is now lower than a few years ago. So no, it's not increasing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Are the odds of getting robbed or attacked in your home so low? I think not...
Noone I know has ever been robbed or attacked in their home. None of my neighbors have. Sure, a thing or two have been nicked from the lawn or something, but that's youngsters having fun, not robbery... It truly is like getting struck by lightning.
I leave my front door wide open when I'm home(and it's not cold). I only lock it when I'll be gone for at least a day. I never lock my car or bike when they're outside my house. Getting robbed is not something I ever think about. And I don't live in the middle of nowhere either, I live 10km away from the capital.
Re: 11 year old shot in Liverpool
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Moody
I havent read more than a few posts at the top of this thread so im gonna stick this in here and run (threads tend to run in a very predictable manor when it comes to gun crime)
there have been 58 gun related homicides in the entire of the UK over this year (compared to 49 last year)
in Los Angleles alone there has been 496 homicides (to the end of July) with guns being used in more than 4/5ths (i cant get an exact number of been trying).
thats 396 (rounded down).
we are seeing a rise in gun crime here in the UK but they are a statisticaly small (minute i would say) number.
Anyone using the current cases to advocate gun control doesnt work is crazy.
I would second that, as a uk resident, right now as i type, i can hear gun shots outside.
There are guns in britain, there are legal guns and gun shops too, at the moment there are more illegal guns appearing in britain and surprise surprise gun crime does seem to be increasing, if not in numbers then in bold ness (and im not just talking about shootings)
Now if hand guns were legal i dont think i would want one i would be worried that i might kill someone accidentally (after all hand guns are designed just for that purpose), now many criminals wouldn't, thats the difference.
I can understand why some people want guns, for hunting or sport like clay pigeon shooting, or just against targets, now to my knowledge you can do all that in britain its just that you need to apply for licence.
http://www.thamesvalley.police.uk/ne.../firearms5.htm
''A firearm certificate may be refused or revoked if the holder is:
* of intemperate habits
* of unsound mind
* unfit to be entrusted with such a firearm
* no longer has good reason for possession
* a danger to the public safety or to the peace.
A shot gun certificate can only be refused or revoked if the holder is a danger to the public safety or to the peace.
The burden of proof is within the 'bounds of probability' not 'beyond reasonable doubt' as with a criminal offence.''
Re: 11 year old shot in Liverpool
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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary
I can understand why some people want guns, for hunting or sport like clay pigeon shooting, or just against targets, now to my knowledge you can do all that in britain its just that you need to apply for licence.
Well, you use a rifle for hunting. I can't see anyone doing a drive-by with a bolt-action hunting rifle :laugh4:
Or for that matter, anyone intending to use a pistol for hunting....or an MP5...
Re: 11 year old shot in Liverpool
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Originally Posted by HoreTore
Well, you use a rifle for hunting. I can't see anyone doing a drive-by with a bolt-action hunting rifle :laugh4:
Or for that matter, anyone intending to use a pistol for hunting....or an MP5...
An FN Minimi would be nice for hunting fish, they're quite fast and under water so you're unlikely to get them with a well-aimed shot. But I could do with an Uzi as well, would just have to stay away from bigger fish like sharks then.concerning drive-by "shootings" I'd recommend throwing kitchen knives.:beam:
