Loading Screen Mistake

Okay the problem -obviously- lies in the fact that (colloquial) English tends to make a mess of it's tenses. Or rather in the passive.

Lemme explain:

I do > no problem, that's alway present
I did > slight problem, 'cause contrary to other language this is very finite. You do not do the same anymore.
I have done > major problem: it means: I did, I do and I will be doing -all at the SAME time. Compare: I worked for this company for five years. With: I have worked for this company for five years.

However, in passive sense the perfect is abused till death an beyond in English.

I was > that's clear, you are no more...
I have been > that's somewhat less clear 'cause you might just be continuing; or you might be no more. Most correct would be to use it much like the active sense; but when did the English ever speak their language properly? So, its actual meaning now really strongly depends on its context.

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Okay, back to the matter at hand: Greek.

You just happen to have bumped into the most difficult of tenses, or rather a temporalis: the Aoristus. Now, if you know your grammar trade, you would immediately recognise a Latinization of a Greek word, meaning “boundless”.

Some grammar rules dicate that your best bet would be:

The die was thrown.

Meaning that Caesar never could´ve said this before he crossed the Rubicon. Or that his Greek wasn´t the best either. ~;)

Quote:

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You are vering very close to trolling now. Despite what you might think these few are not simple to translate in either Greek or Latin. Nor do we know if Ceasar actually said them in Greek. Regardless of where the remark came from Ceasar could concievable have said it in either language in the same way as I quote him in English.

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1) I never said translation was simple. I said the Latin here was. It's just a subject and a verb. That's beside the point, since clearly the Greek is trickier, but there's still no need to depart so wildly from the Greek/Latin.
2) We do know from Plutarch that Caesar said it in Greek- here's a quote:
He [Caesar] declared in Greek with loud voice to those who were present 'The die has been cast' and led the army across.
– Plutarch, 'Life of Pompey, Ch. 60'
3) I don't expect you to respond again on this thread, but you may still follow it. I'm sorry if I've offended you, or appear to be trying to troll. But I'm not trying to ankle-bite EB, or duel anyone to the death here. I'm only pointing out that the translation for Caesar's remark is not accurate. And I don't see how anyone could argue that it is. The Latin shouldn't even be there, and the English translation is 'artistic' at best.

@ Tellos Athenaios:
Thanks to clarifying. It is clearly an uglier affair in Greek, but it seems then that the present translation isn't right in Greek either. But remember Caesar was quoting Menander, so that might explain the past-tense of the verb.

Again, I'm sorry if I seem hostile or pedantic. And in a way, I regret even opening this thread, because it's beginning to feel charged with a less-than-positive energy. I had no idea bringing up a translation error on one loading screen could possibly trigger such controversy. And had I known having a strong position in a grammatical debate was trolling, I wouldn't have even brought it up. I guess that's my bad. :oops:

I hoped for a slightly more civil discussion, since EB prides itself on an ability to quickly crush bugs and mistakes thanks to player criticism, and I expected either to be showed why EB is right, or to have helped fix a tiny mistake. Well, no one has yet explained why the Latin is there when there should be Greek or why the translation is wrong in tense, mood, time, number, and vocab, yet it seems the local EB team member is reluctant to change it. :thumbsdown:

Well, was Caesar saying, "I have crossed a point of no return and now have no choice but to go on", which is what most people are taught, or was he saying, "Brilliant, game on!"?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Imperator

@ Tellos Athenaios:
Thanks to clarifying. It is clearly an uglier affair in Greek, but it seems then that the present translation isn't right in Greek either. But remember Caesar was quoting Menander, so that might explain the past-tense of the verb.

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No, I do not think so. Mostly because of the fact that both Greek and Latin offer ready-made ways of quoting (as they didn't use quotation marks). Also, it wouldn't explain why he choose to quote Menander when this Menander is speaking in a past tense. There must've been something in this quote that struck Caesar as particularly appropiate to say; and my bet is that it was precisely the fact that it contains a past tense. (As in, this is a point of no return.) But that's just my :2cents:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Imperator

I hoped for a slightly more civil discussion, since EB prides itself on an ability to quickly crush bugs and mistakes thanks to player criticism, and I expected either to be showed why EB is right, or to have helped fix a tiny mistake. Well, no one has yet explained why the Latin is there when there should be Greek or why the translation is wrong in tense, mood, time, number, and vocab, yet it seems the local EB team member is reluctant to change it. :thumbsdown:

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Well, this thread has quickly left the path of mutual understanding, and entered the deep, dark and feared realms of miscomunication and worse... So please do not take this particular line of conversation as the example of how EB deals with feedback.

I'm no scholar of language but the main problem & confusion is due to the following:
Both 'die' & 'cast' each have multiple homonyms.(I had to look it up :o )
Further, both not only have homonyms in the context of gambling and in the context of manufacturing but in both contexts, the two are similarly related.
Worse, in the context of manufacturing metal castings, the first casting is a 'gamble' to see if you made the (expensive to make & expensive/impossible to alter) die correctly! :dizzy2:

So to get a single context I think it is best to remove both and replace with more specific words.

An earlier post said that 'alea' translates to a generic 'gambling piece' rather than specifically a 'die', so it could be any form of gambling device.
We are also after a synonym for 'cast' as in 'thrown and still in the air' but if going for a different gambling device we might be able to find a word for 'in-flight having been recently thrown by the speaker' but which fits better.

I propose these as some ideas towards a new, clear translation:
-The wheel (of fortune) is spinning
-Round and round it goes, where it stops nobody knows.
-The coin is flipped
-The slot/pokie machine is spinning
-The deck is shuffled (?)
-The bet is placed
-I'm taking a gamble here guys (previously stated)


That said, as I previously stated, I think the original works so very well on so many levels specifically because of all the interrelationship of the words (& I think of the manufacturing context as a fortuitous secondary interpretation for looking back with hindsight) that I still really like the old "The die is cast" :yes:

You forget that we do not discuss changing from "the die is cast", but rather why it is problematic to change to it. The current translation in EB is "Let the dice fly high", and does the same as all your suggestions: convey the meaning in none of the original words.

The traditional translation is "The die is cast" not the EB translation "Let the dice fly high".

Therefore EB is contending that the traditional translation should be changed to what is a terribly awkward new translation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hoom

The traditional translation is "The die is cast" not the EB translation "Let the dice fly high".

Therefore EB is contending that the traditional translation should be changed to what is a terribly awkward new translation.

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This is not an "EB only" translation. We didn't make this up. I have seen it debated in academic circles, and when I have seen something related to historicity that means it can't possibly be some lone crank petitioning from an ivory tower. This is a debate amongst historians and as of the previous beta releases EB sides with the Menander-attributed quote. This is what we are currently doing Backstage.

This stuff takes time. We certainly appreciate it being brought to our attention, but right now the case to look at it has been made and we're looking into it. Accusations really do not help the issue, nor do they resolve it any faster.

Well if its actually being accepted as a new translation in the academic world then fair enough.
This thread would have been rather shorter if that had been mentioned earlier.

I got the impression this was an in-house EB translation only.

Still an awkward phrase though :inquisitive:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hoom

Well if its actually being accepted as a new translation in the academic world then fair enough.

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I wouldn't say "accepted" but I would certainly say "debated." ~:) This is exactly why we're discussing it Backstage.

Alea jacta est = the die has been thrown

no more, no less

"Let the dice fly high" means : The dice are being thrown and I hope the result will be good, this may have been thought privately by Caesar, but in was not pronounced.

Now, this is a lot of fuss for a very tiny issue...:laugh4:

Actually it is considerably more complicated than that. After some considerable discussion among our various Latin and Ancient Greek Scholars it has been decided that the proper translation of the quote was far too contentious because of the complicated and multi layered nature of both the Latin and the Greek.

As a result the decision has been taken to remove the quote from EB at this time. We reserve the right to review this decision but at this time the quote has been removed indefinitely.