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I was going to post again, but Daveybaby wrote my point precisely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daveybaby
One more thing: if the Securom changes the system at the time of the game installation, piracy won't protect you, since you can remove whatever you want but have your registry (sp?) altered from the beginning; anyway if someone wanted to pirate it he woudn't post here the fact, that seems evident enough to me.
The big deal for me is the fact that this SecuRom installs software on my pc without either my consent or even without giving me an option not to install it. I'm using the installer of the game, not the SecuRom installer. So it would be basic courtesy to tell me it's going to install another program (I had the same gripe with starforce btw). This actually is the behavior of a VIRUS!! I will not buy any software that installs some random cr@p on my pc without me knowing or allowing it and that on top of it all is (nearly) impossible to remove.
Up until now i was still considering buying Kingdoms. It's the first in the TW series which i wasn't really sure whether to buy it. But this definitely tipped the scales. I'm won't buy Kingdoms if securom stays.
let me get this straight... it says it will update continuasly... but what if yur pc has no internet...?
i wont buy it now... i made up my mind
You can only install Bioshock on one PC (well actually 2).Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
However, it uses the same copy protection technology as kingdoms, so this is something which we may see in future TW games (e.g. empires).
Some of you seem to be making a mountain out of a molehill. You know securom is there, so it's not going to be a surprise if it installs it, and you legally bought the game, so it's not going to really actually do anything.
Some of you are going to deprive yourself of an awesome expansion because they didn't add an extra "Yes | Back | Cancel" to the installation?
Seems like a pretty frivolous thing to make a huge stand on. You are missing out big time one an awesome game.
No, you can install it as often as you want. It was an off-topic post that I made about copy protection trends in general (see Bioshock) and I probably should have known better that there are hundreds of people out there who just don't read properly :inquisitive:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
Graphic: This is not about the game or whether it impedes how I can play a game, it's about a general unbalance in how the game industry looks upon its customers. They kind of reversed the presumption of innocence by treating everyone as a pirate in the first place and punishing them for something they didn't actually do. I just can't understand there are actually people who applaud them for that insolent behavior...
Besides, you could also argue people are buying the game under false pretences because nowhere does it say that it's going to install any additional third-party software on your system that you didn't want to buy.
It's been changed to 5.Quote:
You can only install Bioshock on one PC (well actually 2).
Exactly, as a classmate told me once, if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to worry about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graphic
Now if Kingdoms required installations on the level of stuff like Quake, Half-life 2, Bioshock, etc. Then yes I think that would be an issue.
Yes really, I've seen posts on various forums in regards to games asking about cracks over the years and in such idiotic form. Especially those who don't know how to crack but want to know how or where to find it. Like I said, there are much worse games out there that make it a *#)(@*$)(#@*$ pain to install. Relatively, Kingdoms is nothing. Installation done in 30 minutes tops and running fine and dandy.Quote:
Hmmm...no, not really. That is what so ridiculous about copy protection. The people who want to pirate the game have absolutely no reason to complain, they go and get the crack and are done with in about 5 minutes.
To be honest, I'd think games like Supreme Commander(Which I own) and Galactic Civilization II are decent in that they don't require the DVD/CD to play the game at all. But then again every game is different (Unless CA provides monthly updates to the game which would be weird). I have other ideas on proper copy right protections though this isn't the point.
How are you being punished? It checks to make sure you have the original disc. You bought the game. You have the original disc. Securom harms you in no way whatsoever. I'm not applauding them or criticizing them for including Securom as it means nothing to someone who bought the game legally, especially since it's so easily circumvented anyways if you have such a huge problem with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by alpaca
It just seems like an arbitrary stand to take just for the sake of taking a stand. Sticking it to the man is fun but come on, it just adds a registry entry and checks if you have an original copy, what is the huge problem with that?
The issue isn't that it checks for disk its that it embeds itself in your system and requires you to jump through hoops to remove.
The problems are:
1) It hides itself on your computer.
2) You aren't told that it is put on there.
3) Its pain in the butt to remove.
4) You're required to deactivate your computer's security because
a) It needs to bypass your firewall.
b) Your antivirus will flag it as a trojan virus because it acts liek a trojan.
I wish it was the old 'you must have CD and CD key to play' or even steam which isn't as ridiculous.
I don't have a big issue with DRM but its just badly implemented. Its almost as bad as Sony's first attempt at protecting music with freaking root kits.
I also think the issue some people are conserned about is that securom will lie on your pc, even after you uninstall the game, and a skilled hacker can exploit this and gain access to private information (bank accounts, pin numbers etc.) I've pre-ordered the game, but I will not install it until we get some fix for this.
Cut the internet connection when installing, what's the problem.Quote:
4) You're required to deactivate your computer's security because
a) It needs to bypass your firewall.
b) Your antivirus will flag it as a trojan virus because it acts liek a trojan.
Anyway, I asked someone I know who has the game, he did not have to deactivate any firewall. And since I installed the anti virus program on his PC I made sure it daily checks for viruses on the background, and it found nothing.
Next to that I asked him to do a rootkit search, again, nothing was found.
So, you get the choice:
1. SecuRom is not included in the game and this thread is a lie.
2. SecuRom is completely harmless and this thread is not needed.
You get the pick, choose wisely.
If I remember correctly it's just one type of firewall that you need to shut down.Quote:
Originally Posted by antisocialmunky
I can't remember which firewall it was but I remember the same firewall was causing trouble for those that played Mount & Blade where the firewall caused the game to shut down because of copy protection.
Well, SecuRom is NOT a rootkit, Sony's previous attempt at a DRM for music CDs was. This may or may not be the reason why that rumor is going around. Also, as I did install bioshock, you need to have an internet connection during the install to update it to the latest patch(kinda like when you're installing windows). I don't know what happens if there is no connection.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
You only need your internet connection on when your run it the first time so Securom can access its database and register with it. This requires you to let it get through your firewall, which is pretty much like steam or anything else, not a big problem, my wording might have exaggerated it a little bit but it needs to be allowed to send through your firewall.
Now, I ran into a problem with AVG since it kept flagging and quarantining it as a Dos based trojan virus(both the patch from the install stored in temp internet and the excutable). I only discovered this after I saw that the exe had disappeared. Infact, everytime on start up I had to restore it from AVG's virus vault to play the game until eventaully the exe got deleted by the antivirus accidentally(needed to use Restore AS instead of Restore).
I have a hard time believing that this virus originated from anywhere besides 2k game's patch or the Bioshock install as it was only present in those two file.s
And you didn't even touch on two of the most important things:
THERE'S NO EASY WAY TO UNINSTALL IT AND YOU'RE NOT INFORMED OF ITS PRESENCE.
On top of that, with Bioshock you only had two installs. If you lost your connection while trying to uninstall or you format your drive without installing, you're out one install. This doesn't seem to be the case with Kingdoms.
My argument is that this method is a poor implmentation of DRM. You can't see it, you have a hard time getting rid of it, it actually has conflicts with multiple games using securom under certain circumstances, and its just a piss poor way of doing things go get a Steam license - atleast they know how to do it right. Hell, it's even damaged 2k Game's mindshare and for what? A system that will STILL be cracked.
@alpaca, i wasnt replying to a post of yours... i thought securom had something to di with that untill i read another post... i quickly edited my post after that... so my problem is not that i dont read properly... i just reply before i read and edit later... which is worse is up to you.
btw if its easily circumvented why implement it... those who want to get rid of it can do so easy... so why add it
second problem... i think its way to expensive... bioshock costs the same but is a full game... im not paying 40$ for an expansion that might and probably will turn into a dissapointment... ill wait till it costs half or less...
@ASM: so to install bioshock you need to have internet? is this the same for kingdoms? because i dont have internet on my gamepc.
I just installed Kingdom (the worst installer i've ever seen) and looked more into the Securom issue. Sure enough I did find the "hidden" registry entries but the good news is that I can't find the UAServer7 mentioned in wikipedia.
So to me it looks like Kingdom's version of Securom merely checks for correct CD and creates strange registry entries, but doesn't install any actual software that I can see. Unless someone shows evidence otherwise I think there is no cause for concern.
I'm not sure you are right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graphic
According to the Wiki reference to Securom there are already a number of known issues arising from allowing this software to invade your system.
More to the point, as this software cannot be uninstalled, and as you the owner of the PC have no control whatsoever over what it does, then by implication you cannot control or prevent what it does to your system after you have allowed it to be installed.Quote:
Known problems
* The version of SecuROM that comes with Armed Assault, S.T.A.L.K.E.R (European release only), Neverwinter Nights 2, Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars (patched to v1.04), Tomb Raider Anniversary (demo and full version), Overlord and Bioshock (demo and full version) prevents the game from running at all if Process Explorer, a free tool offered by Microsoft, has been run since the previous reboot, however a workaround for this Process Explorer v10.xx bug (v9.25 is not affected) can be found here[2].
* Certain games installed using SecuROM will prevent other select games from working correctly, and will continue to do so even after game is uninstalled.[citation needed]
Presumably, it must update itself by periodic downloads and upgrades, either dynamically or as a result of future game instals. That means that Sony or indeed anyone who once had access to how Securom works could simply expliot the presence of this software to gather information or interfere with your use of your PC.
Its bad enough that the vast majority of spyware that screws up our systems performance is paid for my commercial enterprises, but this peice of software is nothing short of a commercially sponsored system hack, and I'm certainly not going to knowingly allow it onto my PC, just becuase I want to play a game.
Well, actually it does do something -- it would leave a hidden registry key on my computer even after I've uninstalled the game, which may (or may not, but the potential is there) add a future backdoor to malware. Or maybe it will just trigger alarms in some future AV software I decide to use, which would also be a pain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graphic
It's sheer arrogance to treat a customer's computer like that. I don't mind CP methods that go away when I'm finished with a game and uninstall it. This is different.
Well, you make your decision and I'll make mine. It's a question of "how much do I want to put up with, and is it worth it?"Quote:
Some of you are going to deprive yourself of an awesome expansion because they didn't add an extra "Yes | Back | Cancel" to the installation?
Seems like a pretty frivolous thing to make a huge stand on. You are missing out big time one an awesome game.
I actually bought Bioshock after hearing that 2K will remove the 5 activation limit after the main sales window expires, and that they'll be releasing a key removal tool for use when you uninstall the game. That's more than CA has done, so far. Unless we hear differently, they're planning on just leaving that hidden key on your computer.
I'm not sure, those are just my experiences. You will need it to Securom verify it. If Kingdoms has none of the invisible install and registry entries, then I'm fine with it. Too bad there's not too much info on it other than 'securom is on Kingdoms.' Personally as a Computer Scientist, I blame Sony for having a implementation that's absolutely pathetic :no:.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
what i dont understand is why people with the legit copy have to suffer intrusive software which may potentially cause harm to their computer.
if any pirate copy was made of the game i would assume the cracker would remove the security software so whats the point of having. basically its only going to be on the pc's of people who buy their games anyway.
and on the sumject on end user licenses
in the UK and i presume the EU siginig license doens not necessarily mean the vendor can take away your consumer rights. and limitaiton clauses have to be pretty well highlights so the consumer for it be applicable and the way u accept a EULA by clickinng a button would not hold up in a British court. not from what i know about contract law anyway.
Um ... takes deep breath ... you'd think that would be the case, but it turns out not to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by nameless
I bought a perfectly legal copy of Silent Hunter III. Unknown to me, it had a copy protection program called Starforce bundled with it. Over a long period of time this caused problems which, at a conservative estimate, I spent 20 hours over. I normally bill my time at around $80 an hour as a computer consultant but I don't expect Ubisoft or Starforce are likely to recompense me :no:
Since almost nothing could be as bad as Starforce, I don't expect SecuROM will be. But I'll never knowingly put copy protection crap on my machines again, so the Kingdoms that I'm expecting any day now is going straight back to Amazon. I suggest CA/SEGA search the Web and read about the decision by Ubisoft, giving in to customer demand, not to use Starforce in Silent Hunter IV.
There we can agree - Stardock (GalCiv) have a wonderful attitude towards their customers. If only all games companies did.Quote:
To be honest, I'd think games like Supreme Commander(Which I own) and Galactic Civilization II are decent in that they don't require the DVD/CD to play the game at all. But then again every game is different (Unless CA provides monthly updates to the game which would be weird). I have other ideas on proper copy right protections though this isn't the point.
Thank you for your expert advice.Quote:
Originally Posted by crpcarrot
ok having read theother thread can someone confirm what the problems with AVG are
i havent baught kindoms yet and havent decided if i want to, but if it is gonna cause problems with my antivirus software i certainly wont buy it.
isnt having to tun off your antivirus software iteself too much of a risk in a pc with broadband??
Heh well your the computer consultant :PQuote:
Originally Posted by crpcarrot
Although personally I've had quite a bit of experience with dealing with viruses on my own computer. If your worried about the virus in that situation then that means the virus must be a process. If it's a process it's usually quite a bit easier to detect as well.
TBH I don't get viruses much anymore and the ones I do get are easy to get rid of. Although I suspect if a virus has a line "Detect when AVG is turned off" it'd probably show up on the AVG scanner easily.
For the people who dont care what the copy protection software does to their machine, a timely link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6968234.stm
Yes its Sony again. This is the second time their shoddily written DRM software has compromised the PCs of their paying customers.
Some history:
Sony slated over anti-piracy CD
The rootkit of all evil?
Hackers are exploiting flaws
Viruses use Sony anti-piracy CDs
See if you can guess which company owns securom, the DRM software that comes with kingdoms. Go on, have a guess. I'll give you a clue - it begins with the letter 'S'.
@ darkabiter
"Thank you for your expert advice."
its not expert adice i'm not a lawyer. as i said not from what i know about contract law.
about virus
well i'm not worried only about virus' but also hackers and spyware. i use my pc for a lot of my financial activities as well and also have a lot of sesitive information saved on it. i am no pc expert but i rather not have my pc plugged into the internet without a firewall or virus protection.
Note to all: Starforce is not SecuRom. They are very different tools, with very different methods of achieving their goals, and comparison is worse than useless - it actively invites misinterpretation of the facts.
Likewise, the link Daveybaby posted is to a story about the Sony Music DRM debacle, which actually did install a rootkit. SecuRom does not.
Well, I bought the game, as I was going to.
And I installed it, as I was going to.
And just for you guys I've run a virusscan (using AVG, as I use AVG).
And I found nothing.
And I scanned on spyware:
Nothing
Rootkits:
Nothing
True enough sapi. But both examples are good illustrations of what can go wrong, and why we shouldnt blindly trust this stuff to not do any damage to our machines.
I'm going to bow out of this topic now, as i've been getting a bit soap-box-ey. :embarassed: Also i'm being a total hypocrite, as i'm almost certainly going to install the game tonight regardless.
Look under C:\Documents and Settings\(your user account) or All Users\Application Data. See a folder called "Securom" on it?Quote:
Originally Posted by MStumm
Now make sure you have first done this: Go to Tools>Folder Options>View>Under "Hidden files and folders" check "Show hidden files and folders". Also, uncheck "Hide protected operating system files".
Open the "Securom" folder. Don't be too surprised if you see...nothing. There are files in there that have been installed by Securom, but because they have intentionally been made to contain character errors, Windows explorer cannot recognize them and so there is no way to delete them.
Did you use Micosoft's RootkitRevealer? It has been well-documented from Bioshock that a registry entry is created by Securom v7 that is identified as a rootkit. It may not be a real rootkit, but RootkitRevealer lists it as such for a good reason: it resembles a rootkit and has some of its properties.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
Ask yourself whether you are comfortable having something that emulates a rootkit on your system that you can't remove. The argument that Securom is harmless and "not a big deal" is also subject to the fact that we don't completely know as of yet what it can do and whether hackers find a way to exploit it in the future. Can anybody be absolutely sure private information is not sent to the Securom servers? Would you fully trust copy protection developed by Sony after their music DRM debacle?
The bottomline is that publishers have no right to sell you a product using software that installs itself without consent and which you cannot remove if you choose to. I don't see how anybody can condone the use of such intrusive copy protection when the right to customise the system you own is infringed upon.