Mormons = Aliens

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Originally Posted by Lignator

Kinda OT but kolob is a hebrew word for the place where God lives, just in case you never found the answer.

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So... you are saying God is an Alien?

:laugh4:

Alright, I am pulling your leg here.

Yes I found much information on Kolob and there is a consensus that it could have been derived from the Semitic word QLB (yes they use no vowels) which means heart, middle or centre.

I have read the book of Abraham found in the Mormon (not Mor[e]man) Pearl of great price, and Kolob should be the Star or first creation closest to where God is. It is a governing body and is the first in a hierarchy of governing bodies (I interpret that as stars). Its revolution is that of 1000 years and apparently is the slowest in the hierarchy of stars. Somewhere in this hierarchy we find our solar system and our world. Kolob governs all, but there are at least 15 stars mentioned with a higher governing status than our Sun.

I could speculate what the writer is trying to tell us here, but it is hard not to think of other creations like our world. If you read the Pearl there is also a book of Moses which is quite interesting. In contrary to Genesis it has a prologue which describes Moses’ encounter with God before the: “In the beginning …” There are clearly references to other worlds populated with creations created in the image of God; worlds without numbers, worlds that was destroyed because of unbelief. Moses learns that he is a son of God, which further explained means he was created in the form, image and likeness of God.

The LDS (lds.org) site has all its scripture online and if any of you have interests in these things it is worth a read.

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Originally Posted by Seamus

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Originally Posted by HoreTore
Screw human nature! It's still unacceptable, whether it's "in our nature" or not is irrelevant. You can argue that it's completely in our nature to rape women, but it's still despicable.


I suspect that Macsen was noting the tendency as a descriptive. I suspect he believes we should strive to "rise above" that norm.

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Thank you, Seamus :bow: this was indeed my point, as should be pretty clear from what preceded it, ie

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Originally Posted by me

I'm sure anyone with any sense of self-awareness will recognise they have faults and failings, which are individual and personal, unrelated to - and unredeemed by - any group membership.

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It is this actual tendency to demonise groups which is at the core of fascist/nationalist/fundamentalist movements which label "the other" as somehow lesser than the "in group", whether that is "blacks are sub-human", "Jews are parasites" or "Mormons are aliens". All I'm saying is that it happens, not that it is right. As far as I'm concerned, we are all individuals.


CROWD: "YES! WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS!" :clown:

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Originally Posted by macsen rufus

Thank you, Seamus :bow: this was indeed my point, as should be pretty clear from what preceded it, ie

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Yes yes, I kinda figured that was your intention, consider my reply as backup ~;)

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Why do you think that you are capable of judging who is to be called a christian or not? Isn't that something you should, well I don't know, leave to your God?

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You're assuming I'm a mainstream Christian.

In any case I would have said the same thing when I was an avowed atheist.

Mormans venerate Jesus Christ but they also venerate Joseph Smith as a new prophet, and they add a third testemant which is the direct word of God via gold tablets. If they're Christians then maybe Muslims are as well.

Kukri, by mainstream I mean those christians that accept the creed. As the wiki notes, those and the Mormans are having spats over the pond.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

You're assuming I'm a mainstream Christian.

In any case I would have said the same thing when I was an avowed atheist.

Mormans venerate Jesus Christ but they also venerate Joseph Smith as a new prophet, and they add a third testemant which is the direct word of God via gold tablets. If they're Christians then maybe Muslims are as well.

Kukri, by mainstream I mean those christians that accept the creed. As the wiki notes, those and the Mormans are having spats over the pond.

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So.. you are saying both mainstream Christians and non mainstream Christians would
disregard Mormons as Christians.

This is troublesome at best for someone that looks at the concept of Christian from the outside.

I agree with H.Tore that it should not be up to the different denominations to denounce anyone. It is a well known verse that states; Judge ye not, lest ye be judged.
You should not judge what you cannot judge.
In every dictionary the definition of a Christian is a follower of Christ; someone following the teachings of Christ and one who exemplifies Christ’s teachings in his/her way of living.
In this H.Tore is right, only Jesus Christ can judge whether someone is following his teachings or not. According to Christian lore this will happen at judgement day…

Let’s see,
Mormons is a nickname and was never the official name of neither the church nor its followers.
The original name of the Church is; The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints.
They baptise in the name of Christ.
All prayers end with; in the name of Jesus Christ.
They believe in salvation because of the atonement of Christ and his mercy, also called grace.
They have another testament of Jesus Christ.
They believe Jehovah was Jesus Christ.

There is a whole lot of Christ in there to not make the obvious connection.

And if you make adopting the Nicene Creed a prerequisite to be named Christian, then you got to disregard an awful lot of early disciples as Christians, including st.Peter, st.James, st.John and st.Paul.

And don't the mainstream Christians venerate the Pope? Don't tell me that Catholics are not mainstream.

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Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane

And don't the mainstream Christians venerate the Pope? Don't tell me that Catholics are not mainstream.

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Most evangelical Protestants and many mainstream ones don't consider Catholics to be Christian at all, not just not mainstream. At least not in America. Read the Bob Jones University website or any of the 6 Chick Tracts published on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane

And don't the mainstream Christians venerate the Pope? Don't tell me that Catholics are not mainstream.

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Revere and respect? Yes. Venerate? I would say no. We don't worship the pope.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Most evangelical Protestants and many mainstream ones don't consider Catholics to be Christian at all, not just not mainstream. At least not in America. Read the Bob Jones University website or any of the 6 Chick Tracts published on the matter.

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Well, the bible clearly says you shall have no gods besides God and catholics pray to a lot of saints who were declared such by the pope who is a human.
And there are a lot more things that make some christians like me think that catholics aren't really following the bible. That doesn't mean they're all bad people, it just means that the vatican is apparently full of bad people.:sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by Husar

Well, the bible clearly says you shall have no gods besides God and catholics pray to a lot of saints who were declared such by the pope who is a human.
And there are a lot more things that make some christians like me think that catholics aren't really following the bible. That doesn't mean they're all bad people, it just means that the vatican is apparently full of bad people.:sweatdrop:

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Catholics don't pray to saints in the sense that they worship saints or treat saints as divinity. If you say the Nicene creed, you utter the words "I believe in the communion of Saints". What does that phrase mean to you? And I challenge you to explain to me the theological or dogmatic differences between the Vatican and the Church of England (an entity most Protestants don't seem to have a problem with).

Before answering you further, and I would really like to, I'm going to ask Sigurd's permission. This is his thread about bias against the Latter Day Saints. If he wants to expand it to a discussion of 'What constitutes a Christian" then we can go that route. But if he'd rather, I'll start another thread to answer your charges.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Before answering you further, and I would really like to, I'm going to ask Sigurd's permission. This is his thread about bias against the Latter Day Saints. If he wants to expand it to a discussion of 'What constitutes a Christian" then we can go that route. But if he'd rather, I'll start another thread to answer your charges.

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I don't see a problem with this. This thread is about bias within Christianity or should I say; Those who claims to follow Christ's teachings?

Just to alert all of you:

https://img509.imageshack.us/img509/...9271207kw5.jpg

It might save your life!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I know this post isn't contributing to the thread in any way, but I couldn't resist.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Catholics don't pray to saints in the sense that they worship saints or treat saints as divinity. If you say the Nicene creed, you utter the words "I believe in the communion of Saints". What does that phrase mean to you? And I challenge you to explain to me the theological or dogmatic differences between the Vatican and the Church of England (an entity most Protestants don't seem to have a problem with).

Before answering you further, and I would really like to, I'm going to ask Sigurd's permission. This is his thread about bias against the Latter Day Saints. If he wants to expand it to a discussion of 'What constitutes a Christian" then we can go that route. But if he'd rather, I'll start another thread to answer your charges.

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I would suggest that the Church of England's primary theological difference with the Roman Church is that Anglicans do not recognise Papal Primacy.

That's a pretty big difference.

I found this, it's all the various creeds etc. in English. From the CoE website, which is based on the litteral Catholic translations of the original Latin.
http://www.cofe.anglican.org/worship...rd/creeds.html

The primacy of the Pope versus the Archbishop of Canterbury is not a theocratic (belief) or dogmatic (practice) difference, it is a political difference. The idea that there is one guy at the apex of the pyramid is a structure shared between both. It's simply a question of who inherited the mantle of Peter.

Theological matters: One God in three persons (a trinity); a redemptive messiah; the hypostatic union (Jesus was completely human and completely God); a balance of scripture and tradition; the communion of the saints; all these are common to both the Roman and the Anglican church.

Dogmatic matters: There actually are some differences here, but not usually the ones that get cited by Evangelical protestants when they call Catholics Satanists. 1) Catholic priests must be celibate males; 2) Anglican priests must be chaste males or females (and I think they've removed the 'chaste' requirement on priests in the American branch, the Episcopal Church); confession and annointing of the sick are 'suggested' sacraments in the Anglican tradition, they are required in the Roman tradition.

But the dogmatic matters that Catholics usually get denounced by evangelicals are common to both churches: serious sin can place the soul in mortal jeoprady; the role of the Eucharist, Baptism, and other sacraments as necessary for a full spiritual life; NOT sola-scriptura; the role of saints... all are common to both churches.

As for worshiping Mary or other saints, Catholics don't. Catholics take the term 'communion of saints' to mean a physical death does not prevent communication. A 'saint' is not a new god, it's the English word fpr sanctus. All the title 'saint' means is that its somebody we can be certain made it to heaven (as opposed to purgatory or... :devil: ). When Catholics pray to saints, its not worship. It's more akin to having an older sibling that's been admitted to a club, and you asking them to put in a good word for you when you go before the membership admission committee. Yes, Mary holds a special and revered role, and is the most sinless HUMAN that ever existed. But she's not divine.

Put down the Chick Tracts and actually talk to somebody who knows. I myself am more ignorant on the ins and outs of dogma and theology then I probably should be, but I'm certain Seamus can answer any questions I'm unable to. I got a hoot out of the Chick Tract that claimed the Catholic Church was the modern day incarnation of the ancient Babylonian cult of Molech, and used the requirement of priestly celibacy as a proof! :laugh4: Priestly celibacy, as a hard and fast requirement, dates to the counter-reformation. One of the biggest (and correct) criticisms of the Church was that it had in fact become an aristocracy: bishoprics and parishes were handed from father to son. The needs of the congregation were overlooked while pastors, bishops et. al. looked to the welfare of their own families. And question for that... if Catholics are the modern day version of Molech worshippers, a cult famous for infanticide, why are they the most stridently anti-abortion, pro-life force on the planet?

I seem to recall a thread not too long ago on the topic of what defines a Christian. The most succinct definition came from Pindar, and it seemed to me to be the most generally accepted as well. A Christian is a person who accepts Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah. In that case Catholics and Mormons both fit the bill, though Muslims do not, for all they respect Christ in their doctrine.

Ajax

Don:

Well said.

Ajax:

Succinct point. Our Pindar too is a pithy fellow.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Revere and respect? Yes. Venerate? I would say no. We don't worship the pope.

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But you [you said we] do respect him as your suprime leader. A spokesperson for God so to speak.

I have not asked a Chatholic this before, but IF God were to speak or reveal his will to man. IF God decided that Deism is no longer His ways [then again Catholics never was Deists] and made a visit. Who would be the first He would make contact with?

Oh... and if venerate means worship, then I guess the Mormons don't venerate Joseph Smith either. I hardly doubt they are praying to Joseph or in his name.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

The primacy of the Pope versus the Archbishop of Canterbury is not a theocratic (belief) or dogmatic (practice) difference, it is a political difference. The idea that there is one guy at the apex of the pyramid is a structure shared between both. It's simply a question of who inherited the mantle of Peter.

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The Pope is God's supreme representative on Earth, not just the Bishop of Rome. He can speak Ex Cathedra "From his Chair" which makes his teaching infallable and a direct message from God. The Archbishop of Canterbury has no such power as evidenced by the problems he has with the American Church. The Archbishop of Canterbury is only primus inter pares "First Among Equals" he has no actual authoriety, which is not to say that Anglicans the world over do not respect him.

http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/role/index.html

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Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane

I have not asked a Chatholic this before, but IF God were to speak or reveal his will to man. IF God decided that Deism is no longer His ways [then again Catholics never was Deists] and made a visit. Who would be the first He would make contact with?

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I know I'm not a catholic but judging by the old and new testament most likely not the pope or anyone else but the cleaning staff in the vatican.:beam:

Going back to Mormonism for a moment, I think they're selling themselves short. Instead of concealing the weird stuff, they should market it. Imagine how well "It's Christianity -- with aliens!" would go down with the college set. Very pomo. Very hip.

Innocentius, thank you for the guide to distinguishing Mormons from Ninjas. Useful stff.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Going back to Mormonism for a moment, I think they're selling themselves short. Instead of concealing the weird stuff, they should market it. Imagine how well "It's Christianity -- with aliens!" would go down with the college set. Very pomo. Very hip.

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Haven't the Scientologists cornered that market?

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Haven't the Scientologists cornered that market?

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They remind me more of one of those infomercials on some great new product/diet/excercise machine/kitchen utility that will make your life a billion times better through science, and then when you're in they tell you the science is really tiny alien men inside your orange juicer.

Crazed Rabbit