How should History be taught in a Global society?

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Like I said earlier, a much worse Islamic attack will come on a different day and then some of us can mourn while the rest of you moan about moral relativism.:no:

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I yield to your humanity. Obviously I was incorrect. Also, your other posted statement about the tragedy being recent and the loss of life large has great merit.

If you would, since I am a bit slow on these matters, please look back to the elementary school books for the grade four classes in your district from 1995 onward and let me know on what date the children in your neighbourhood mourned the hundreds of thousands killed in the Rwandan genocide. I think at that point it was both recent and constituted a very large loss of life. Also, what colour was the ribbon or symbol in the textbooks that denoted the date?

Also, given your age, I'm curious what day your own elementary school classes cited as a mourning day for the victims of the chemical disaster in Bhopal, India. That would have been very recent and there was a large loss of innocent life. Was there a coloured ribbon in your textbook as remembrance for the thousands killed and blinded?

Thanks Dave, let me know when you have the time.

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Originally Posted by greaterkhaan

I am quite aware of the Japanese torture camps, bamboo up the fingernails, etc...Are you aware as to the Catholic Church's teachings regarding human life and civilian deaths? The church is vehemently against the involvement of civilians in warfare, and the destruction of Nagasaki and Hiroshima obviously resulted in a massive number of civilian deaths. I am not saying whether or not it was right to drop the A-bombs; rather, I am pointing out the hypocrisy of my school, which is backed by the church.(which is a favorite pasttime of mine)

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My diocese was pretty clear about mourning the deaths and praying for peace. I recall one priest a couple of years ago being very forthright about the difference between actively defending your country and freedom (laudable) and taking joy from doing so (questionable to sinful depending).

The church is against violence in all forms.

Nvm

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Originally Posted by Beirut

I yield to your humanity. Obviously I was incorrect. Also, your other posted statement about the tragedy being recent and the loss of life large has great merit.

If you would, since I am a bit slow on these matters, please look back to the elementary school books for the grade four classes in your district from 1995 onward and let me know on what date the children in your neighbourhood mourned the hundreds of thousands killed in the Rwandan genocide. I think at that point it was both recent and constituted a very large loss of life. Also, what colour was the ribbon or symbol in the textbooks that denoted the date?

Also, given your age, I'm curious what day your own elementary school classes cited as a mourning day for the victims of the chemical disaster in Bhopal, India. That would have been very recent and there was a large loss of innocent life. Was there a coloured ribbon in your textbook as remembrance for the thousands killed and blinded?

Thanks Dave, let me know when you have the time.

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I think you misunderstand me... I don't give a #### if your little insignificant piss-ant country observes 9-11 or any other issue about my country. In fact, if I was you in the great white north I wouldn't care either. That was not my point. I give enough in taxes to third world turds to clear my "global society" concience. I know how the "global society" views my country and how they really feel about 9-11 to understand. Harsh but true, now go deny more wildlife their homes and #### their global comunity as well. :thumbsdown:

I'm with Beirut on this, why is any date more significant than any other. Plenty has happened in the course of humanity and placing one day above all others seems very vain and arrogant. But there seems no point adding my opinion, because it's already been expressed that there is no respect for "the Other", too caught up in "the Self".

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Its because it is still realatively recent and there was a large loss of life. The bombings in England and Spain were just not to the scale of September 11th.

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Shouldn't the kids textbook have a picture of muddy water against every day of the week then?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

About 4,500 children die each day from unsafe water and lack of basic sanitation facilities. Countless others suffer from poor health, diminished productivity and missed opportunities for education.

http://www.unicef.org/wes/index_31600.html

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

I don't give a #### if your little insignificant piss-ant country

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Actually, we're bigger than you. (But it's fine if you say size doesn't matter Dave, we understand.)

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

In fact, if I was you in the great white north I wouldn't care either.

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On the contrary, we do care a great deal. To say if you were us that you wouldn't care is just painting yourself in an lonely isolationist corner because it's easier and more convenient to stomp your feet and say "Nobody likes me!" and use that excuse for acting without regard for others. I see the kids do it all the time.

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

...now go deny more wildlife their homes.

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Will do. I'm off in 45 minutes. Going to be a big one today. Vroom-vroom. :sunny:

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

It might be "published" in the US, but it is FAR from and "American" publication. Its a great news source for 5th columnist infiltrating this great nation.

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Wow! Can you're books now choose their nationality?
I must say I am impressed. I always thought my Pilger books looked Eastern...

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Its because it is still realatively recent and there was a large loss of life. The bombings in England and Spain were just not to the scale of September 11th. But don't worry, the religion of peace is bound to kill a whole lot on a different date so we can forget about September 11th with all the other dates of Islamic terror. :2thumbsup:

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Oh good, I was waiting for the Republicans to do something new this season!

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Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar

Oh good, I was waiting for the Republicans to do something new this season!

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If you're going to wait around for EITHER the GOP or the Dems to do something new, might I suggest hand-calculating the full value of pi to keep your time occupied.....

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Shouldn't the kids textbook have a picture of muddy water against every day of the week then?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

About 4,500 children die each day from unsafe water and lack of basic sanitation facilities. Countless others suffer from poor health, diminished productivity and missed opportunities for education.

http://www.unicef.org/wes/index_31600.html

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Yep, in thier country you bet they should. In mine, I prefer to have societial ethical and moral trends help to dictate what is taught and how, not a group of people who have a belief of how a universal application of an event should be applied.

The question becomes (in your example) how is it portrayed? Are the unsafe sanitation conditions due to government mismanagement? Lack of income of said families? Oppression by the rich?

I much prefer the choice of depiction from multiple sources then a singular source attempting a global view of the 4500 kids plight. It minimalizes the complexities of the condition, and devalues the plight.

All nations have their traumas. Why should those be boosted on every occasion.Let the dead rest in peace.

I don't mind the moments of silence and all that, but the name they chose bugs me. "Patriot Day" sounds too much like a propaganda ploy. It's got nothing to do with patriotism, just death, fear, and random acts of heroism. I guess "National Intelligence Screwup Day" and "Farcical Airline Security Day" were taken...

As to why the Canadian children have it marked down, who knows? They lost several citizens in the attacks as well, or maybe they are just being sympathetic?

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

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Originally Posted by Goofball

Anybody want to bet that Dave has one of those fancy rolls of toilet paper that has a new "word of the day" on every square?

I'm betting Dave deposited the residue of his fecal matter on the word "fifth column" sometime earlier this week.

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Actually I use a more enviromentally friendly method. It involves a Canadian flag and there is little waste.

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Fortunately, as a Canadian, I am secure in the knowledge that our worth, honour, and contribution to the world as a whole really have nothing to do with a multi-coloured bit of cloth that flies atop a pole. So, unlike you, I don't throw a screaming hissy-fit when somebody does something to a flag.

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

When its too soiled, I simply print out any number of your postings and use that.

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Given the angular, abrasive nature of crumpled up printer paper, I can at least take comfort in the fact that my posts are a pain in your ass, both figuratively and literally...

:clown:

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Originally Posted by Goofball

Given the angular, abrasive nature of crumpled up printer paper, I can at least take comfort in the fact that my posts are a pain in your ass, both figuratively and literally...

:clown:

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My ass is so worn and calloused that your posts cannot hurt it!!!!

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I know how the "global society" views my country and how they really feel about 9-11 to understand.

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Wow not only a genius but a phsycic as well , your depth of knowledge truly humbles us all Dave:bow:

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So, unlike you, I don't throw a screaming hissy-fit when somebody does something to a flag.

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Awww thats not nice Goof . :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Beirut

Not at all. I have great empathy for my American friends and family.

My (our) concern is why 9/11 is noted in a nine-year old's Canadian school issue agenda to the exclusion of all other historical events. It is odd, if not downright questionable.

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ah, Well I guess if you think about it we only really mourn what happened in our life time or close to it.

We dont see anyone getting mad at the Mongols for attacking europe and the mid-east.

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Originally Posted by K COSSACK

ah, Well I guess if you think about it we only really mourn what happened in our life time or close to it.

We dont see anyone getting mad at the Mongols for attacking europe and the mid-east.

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Do the agendas have an Indian Ocean Tsunami remembrance on Dec. 26? That was more recent than 9/11 by over 3 years and unless I'm really screwing the math up, 230,000 casualties is a greater loss of life as well.

Ajax

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Originally Posted by ajaxfetish

Do the agendas have an Indian Ocean Tsunami remembrance on Dec. 26? That was more recent than 9/11 by over 3 years and unless I'm really screwing the math up, 230,000 casualties is a greater loss of life as well.

Ajax

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I dont know ask Beirut.

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Do the agendas have an Indian Ocean Tsunami remembrance on Dec. 26? That was more recent than 9/11 by over 3 years and unless I'm really screwing the math up, 230,000 casualties is a greater loss of life as well.

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Yeah but that was gods punishment to Scandanavians

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

My ass is so worn and calloused that your posts cannot hurt it!!!!

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Dave,

Please do NOT provide me witht the details here. Please. I'll send money if I have to. Please. Be kind......

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Originally Posted by ajaxfetish

Do the agendas have an Indian Ocean Tsunami remembrance on Dec. 26? That was more recent than 9/11 by over 3 years and unless I'm really screwing the math up, 230,000 casualties is a greater loss of life as well.

Ajax

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yes, but you see; that was 230,000 humans nobody cares about, while 9/11 was 5000 very important westerners... As well as hurting our business, instead of somebody elses.

So clearly, 9/11 trumps the tsunami.

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Originally Posted by Odin

Yep, in thier country you bet they should. In mine, I prefer to have societial ethical and moral trends help to dictate what is taught and how, not a group of people who have a belief of how a universal application of an event should be applied.

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The statement was that 9/11 should be remembered in other countries because of the intensity and recent nature of the events. My example was 50% larger in intensity and happening daily way before and since 9/11. So if 9/11 gets a coloured ribbon in a diary for Canadian school kids... surely a larger issue should get a mark for every day of the week in Canadian text books?

Given the multiple reasons for the poor water quality, I'm sure some of it is due to political violence (civil war, terrorism, religious strife etc)... in fact given that it is 4500 kids per annum and there is 365 days in a year... less then two-thirds of a percent of those that die have to be killed due to political violence to out weigh 9/11 in a single year (as in same root cause)... so in 6 years since 9/11 only 0.1% of the deaths due to unpotable water have to be caused by political violence to outweigh 9/11 (again as caused by political lead violence, not say bottled water that has e.coli in it)... it is as a whole regardless of root cause a catastrophe that is a thousand times larger then 9/11... so doesn't it deserve some acknowledgement too?

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

it is as a whole regardless of root cause a catastrophe that is a thousand times larger then 9/11... so doesn't it deserve some acknowledgement too?

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Let me be the Captain of the Obvious and says that numbers and reality have nothing to do with that. Our old favorite Uncle Iosif with his scratchy quotation made it rather clear, no? One death is great sorrow and six millions are just numbers.

Is it unjust? Probably. Is it idiotic? May be. Nine years olds shouldn't be "remembering" any tragedy at their age. Do I care? Not so much. They're not my children; Beirut said he will take action, no? People will ask why the hell are they doing this propaganda and that's fair enough -- and yes it's propaganda; these are elementary school kids at best. One doesn't need a central authority and an evil mastermind to create propaganda; it can even be unintentional or "harmlessly done" like this case.

As to why it's there and not the Tsunami, I'd say that the spectacular event of 9/11 was truly Osama's masterstroke at least in terms of political and social impact in the Great Satan's world. The Tsunami was much, much more destructive, with so many more lives lost; but it did not force Congress to put forward a Patriot Act or put the USA to enter two wars. It did not enter the psyche of American thought -- and Canadian, by proxy, though not as much -- the way "terrorism" has had since 9/11.

What I am saying might be taken as belittling the deaths of those in 9/11; frankly, that's not my intention, though neither do I care if I appear such to others.

I don't really understand the OP article however. What is it trying to say anyway? That mainstream history teaching is all balloons and bubblegums? Well, duh.

P.S. Back in the Backroom! [Man was Uni boring]

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

The statement was that 9/11 should be remembered in other countries because of the intensity and recent nature of the events. My example was 50% larger in intensity and happening daily way before and since 9/11.

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Yes thats true, I dont think your incorrect as to the severity of the example you gave.

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So if 9/11 gets a coloured ribbon in a diary for Canadian school kids... surely a larger issue should get a mark for every day of the week in Canadian text books?

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As a resident of that country, a taxpayer and a voter, that would be up to you. Would you prefer to have someone dictate how an event should be taught in your country? The gist of the article as I read it was that there should be a global approach to a historical event (9/11 as an example). I disagree with this premise, it seems you do to, am I reading you correctly?

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Given the multiple reasons for the poor water quality, I'm sure some of it is due to political violence (civil war, terrorism, religious strife etc)... in fact given that it is 4500 kids per annum and there is 365 days in a year... less then two-thirds of a percent of those that die have to be killed due to political violence to out weigh 9/11 in a single year (as in same root cause)... so in 6 years since 9/11 only 0.1% of the deaths due to unpotable water have to be caused by political violence to outweigh 9/11 (again as caused by political lead violence, not say bottled water that has e.coli in it)... it is as a whole regardless of root cause a catastrophe that is a thousand times larger then 9/11... so doesn't it deserve some acknowledgement too?

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It should definately be acknowledged, and each country/society should be able to do so on thier terms. Thats my issue with this article it seems to be a "global" approach to local issues. 9/11 may have impacted the world with its aftermath actions, but it had a far different impact to someone in Manhattan then it did to the plant worker in Bombay.

We should be able to manage several perspectives as to causes and reactions to several issues regardless of location.

Seeing as the only thing we can learn from history is that we can't learn anything from history, sometimes I think we should just screw history lessons completely and let the kids go play football or play war with sticks and stones (or plastic guns, which would increase the income of toy manufacturers and thus also the BNP).

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Originally Posted by Odin

As a resident of that country, a taxpayer and a voter, that would be up to you. Would you prefer to have someone dictate how an event should be taught in your country? The gist of the article as I read it was that there should be a global approach to a historical event (9/11 as an example). I disagree with this premise, it seems you do to, am I reading you correctly?

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Actually I think both should be taught that way it can be put in its proper context and why they have different outcomes. I think history is filtered through the lens of society, as we aren't a global society yet (which has many pros and cons) we should then have history that is applicable and viable to those it is being taught to.

9/11 is a significant event. It is a large man made disaster that was planned to happen.

Children dying because of unpotable water is a larger event. The reason that it isn't as big news is several fold. The number one is not that they are third worlders, it is because they die as a spin-off of other events. It is not a man made disaster that was planned to wipe them out.

I would probably split hairs and teach 9/11 as a historical event (man-made, planned and acted out) and children dying from dirty water as social studies (a function of the societies and group dynamics that they lived in, a faceless act that leads them to being a faceless stat).

What I wouldn't do is publish one event in a diary to the exclusion of all else. A myopic approach to society filters out far to much and over-simplifies the event, doing other events and the one being focused on a disservice. History after all is a series of events, not just a singular one, and by being singular it takes it out of context and a reasonable measure of understanding.

Trying to find an example/instance of 9-11 being noted on a Canadian school calendar, I started with The Ministry of Ed's site and came up short. Visiting some local school districts' sites, I similarly find no reference to 9-11 being singled out.

I conclude that the most probable answer is that Beirut's local school board bought student workbooks-agendas from a US publisher (I wonder if July 4th is noted), perhaps because they were cheaper.

Bah! In my day we used little tiny hammers and little tiny chisels to carve out our lessons on pine boards. Pointy sticks in the dirt were used for temporary 'figgerin'; and we walked 20 miles barefoot in the snow, both ways... and we liked it!

:)

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

I conclude that the most probable answer is that Beirut's local school board bought student workbooks-agendas from a US publisher (I wonder if July 4th is noted), perhaps because they were cheaper.

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I checked when I saw the ribbon symbol in the 9/11 date square and I'm sure they were printed in Canada. I'll check again in the morning, I don't want to go into their room right and get their school bags and wake them up.

Good question about July 4. I'll check and let you know.

The "Global Society" concept is the result of Mercantlism and was driven by the US need to expand its economic influience over Third World countries and so on.
There wasn't a Third World before US expansion and African tribes preety much considered themselves just normal beings nor poor nor rich.
But for the US the African breadline was just an excuse to make money and expand their off-shore companies to more markets.
In the future there won't be any more states, nations or even distinct languages. Instead the future will belong to corporate empires splitting areas of influience among themselves.
So it makes sense teaching corporate history as Global History.