The Idiots Are Winning: TV Host Doesn't Know if World Is Round or Flat

My monitor is as flat as the world.

:creep:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Uh.... You've misunderstood the word "theory". In a scientific sense, it does mean "fact"... Just facts that you can disprove, unlike blind faith...

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Incorrect. Science posits and destroys theories on a regular basis. A theory is NOT a fact.

A "Theory" consists of concepts, set of statements about relationships between these concepts, and basic assumptions. A theory seeks to explain some phenomenon (See Bacharach, 1989, Academy of Management Review, 14, pp.469+).

The Theory of Evolution seeks to explain the relationship between present forms of life (data points in direct observation) with past forms of life (data points based on fossil record, etc.) and suggests that the older forms of life mutated into the current forms via a process of gradual genetic alteration and adaptation in response to the larger environment.

To date, no credible scientific evidence disproving this theory has been brought forward, and though the theory has been refined since first posited (formally at least) by Darwin, the basic explanation provided by this theory is presumed correct because it has survived repeated testing and the vast majority of data available fit well within the explanation.

Arguably, you could actually label the Theory of Evolution as a theoretical model, or even a theoretical paradigm, as it subsumes more focused formal theories covering various aspects of the larger subject.

Nevertheless, Theory is not Fact. A "Fact" is a observable/measurable absolute that -- assuming no change in context -- does not change. Theories are attempts to explain the relationships between such Facts.

Should the Theory of Evolution be discovered to be incapable of accurately explaining X,Y, and Z important Facts, it would be discarded and superceded by a new Theory that explains the relationships between these facts as well as those already observed.

Given the entrenched status of the Theory of Evolution, this would probably involve a Kuhnian paradigm shift, with many theories in any number of disciplines being reconsidered.

Einstein's theories regarding energy, mass, and the speed of light which he published at the turn of the 20th evoked just such a shift in physics, superceding the previously "Absolute" ideas of Newton.

The Theory of Evolution is way more than a "guess," but it is not Fact.


Sorry for the rant -- I spent a few years teaching research methods.

Uhm... Yes, that was what I said... "fact that you can disprove", as opposed to "true" facts, ie. those you cannot disprove...

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Uhm... Yes, that was what I said... "fact that you can disprove", as opposed to "true" facts, ie. those you cannot disprove...

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Well, if you can disprove it it's not a fact.:dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Vicious Monkey, let's talk simian to prosimian: Navaros is our local Biblical literalist and (naturally) creationist. I think there's another creationist posting, but I can't remember his handle.

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Figured as much. Religious literalists aren't as logical as us tailed ones. So far I've never met any such specimen who believes in ethereal beings, unless you do too, which I would then explain away by you, after all, being a prosimian, and not a true simian like I.

If there were a god, we would dominate the world, not the silly humans.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Farmanagh

The Theory of Evolution is way more than a "guess," but it is not Fact.

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Really? In school I was told that a fact is a theory that we have not been able to disprove. Since evolution is a theory that no one has been able to disprove to date, I assumed it was a fact based on this explanation that I got. It seems you're saying that it's wrong, and if so I'll enquire about this further next time I see her, to see what she has to say about it. If I learn a new thing, so much the better. :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by The Vicious Monkey

Since evolution is a theory that no one has been able to disprove to date, I assumed it was a fact based on this explanation that I got. It seems you're saying that it's wrong, and if so I'll enquire about this further next time I see her, to see what she has to say about it.

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Argh, we're tripping over our semantics. Seamus is not saying that the theory of evolution is wrong or right, he's just trying to be crystal-clear about what is a fact versus what is a theory (in the scientific sense).

To be honest, using the scientific method, there isn't any such thing as a "fact." There are good theories, bad theories, and theories that are "so bad they're not even wrong." (Can't remember who said that.) A theory that has been tested, attacked from many angles, and is still standing would be a solid theory. Evolution is one such. It's the foundation of modern biology, among other things.

If you're going to disbelieve evolution, try to be consistent and stop taking antibiotics. No pharmaceuticals for the true believers!

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Uhm... Yes, that was what I said... "fact that you can disprove", as opposed to "true" facts, ie. those you cannot disprove...

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But then it's not a fact. A fact is.

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Originally Posted by The Vicious Monkey

Really? In school I was told that a fact is a theory that we have not been able to disprove. Since evolution is a theory that no one has been able to disprove to date, I assumed it was a fact based on this explanation that I got.

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No, that sounds wrong. A simple example:

A fact is that I, Geoffrey S, typed this message. That is and remains a fact. A theory would be that someone posits theories that infact it wasn't me who typed it, but someone else since the style of writing is supposedly inconsistent with my usual style. They won't be able to conclusively prove it, since there are no witnesses to have seen it happen, but if I were to produce a video recording of me typing this message that theory would be instantly disproven.

It's a touchy point, since there are plenty of theories that too many people take as objective, a fact, as witnessed by the cause of this discussion. Sometimes this is minor, sometimes it can have quite major consequences (the world is flat).

You're such an extremist Lemur!

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Argh, we're tripping over our semantics. Seamus is not saying that the theory of evolution is wrong or right, he's just trying to be crystal-clear about what is a fact versus what is a theory (in the scientific sense).

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Actually, no, you're just misunderstanding me. I simply meant that according to what Seamus said, the explanation I got for what a fact is was wrong. Obviously, I wasn't clear enough on this. My bad. :shame:

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Originally Posted by Geoffrey S

No, that sounds wrong. A simple example:

A fact is that I, Geoffrey S, typed this message. That is and remains a fact. A theory would be that someone posits theories that infact it wasn't me who typed it, but someone else since the style of writing is supposedly inconsistent with my usual style. They won't be able to conclusively prove it, since there are no witnesses to have seen it happen, but if I were to produce a video recording of me typing this message that theory would be instantly disproven.

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Please save me! Be it your example or my (lack of) intelligence, or mental exhaustion, I do not really see your point here. Perhaps I will get it in daytime. In any case, I think I understand Seamus explanation well enough... and with that I am content for tonight. :sweatdrop:

With the risk of being accused a sexist, what can you expect when you put 5 middle aged women with way too much free time together for a couple of hours?

Around here at least, you can still expect them to know planets are round. :sweatdrop:

But the Earth isn't a planet - it is the Center of the Universe - and hence, flat. I can't make it planar than that.

:whip:
That was painful.

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Originally Posted by The Vicious Monkey

Are you claiming that evolution is not a fact? If so, perhaps you should be a little more careful when choosing who you call "idiot"... it could backfire, you know. :inquisitive:

Edit: Just to keep things clear, I do not mean that you're an idiot. Please don't take my post that way. :sweatdrop:

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I wish this forum had a serach engine, I'd show you the long, drawn out debate we had about evolution a while ago. Me (Pro Science/ Pro Evolution) debated Nav an.one other guy who believed in creationism

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Originally Posted by Geoffrey S

A fact is that I, Geoffrey S, typed this message. That is and remains a fact. A theory would be that someone posits theories that infact it wasn't me who typed it, but someone else since the style of writing is supposedly inconsistent with my usual style. They won't be able to conclusively prove it, since there are no witnesses to have seen it happen, but if I were to produce a video recording of me typing this message that theory would be instantly disproven.

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I'll give you a statement:

It was Geoffrey S who wrote that. Fact or theory?

Now, we all know that it is a fact. However, if the world was an alternate dimension where banana's are blue, then it might not have been. So, all I have to do to prove that the fact is false, is to prove that this IS an alternate dimension where banana's are blue. And unfortunately, we can never be 100% sure that this isn't an alternate dimension where bananas are blue. Just watch Matrix :laugh4:

What you are forgetting here, is the third element: the truth. The TRUTH cannot be disproved, since it is TRUE. However, all the facts in the world are only facts until they have been just that - disproved. So, we have two things; at the top the truth, which is the ultimate answer to life and everything(42), but which we'll never know for certain, so we chuck everything we "know" is right into the second category, facts, and they only stay in that category until they are disproved by a later discovery. Now on to the theories. A theory is just that, a theory. However, when a theory gets tested enough through time, like evolution has, they become(evolve!) facts, but we'll still call them theories to confuse people.

*Attempts to drag thread back OT*

You'd have thought that Guinan would know the earth is round, her serving Altarian brandy and all that!

There's never a Spock around when you need one. Fascinating.

If you watch the woman to the left of whoopie she is quite indignant about the womans claiming to ''not know'' what shape the world was.

I would also like to point out that believing in a flat earth has always been a minority thing:

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Originally Posted by Wikipedia

In Inventing the Flat Earth: Columbus and Modern Historians, Jeffrey Russell (professor of history at University of California, Santa Barbara) claims that the Flat Earth theory is a fable used to impugn pre-modern civilization, especially that of the Middle Ages in Europe. Today essentially all professional medievalists agree with Russell that the "medieval flat Earth" is a nineteenth-century fabrication, and that the few verifiable "flat Earthers" were the exception.

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Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_ea...he_Middle_Ages

but i agree that the tv show is inane :yes:

Byzantine Merc is right. Although I think it was the Enlightenment.

Hore Tore: Fact and Truth are in no way related. a fact is testable, Truth merely is.

I might say that the existence of God is an inescapable Truth, because try as I might I can't get away from him but his existence is not a fact.

Truth is philosophy, fact is science.

Truth cannot be dispoved, if the facts point against truth then the facts are wrong. This is why you will never convince Nav about evolution, because for him the Bible is the litteral, true, word of God and is independant of all the facts.

Geoffey S's post is not a fact for us, but a theory. It is a theory for Geoff himself though since he knows he hit the reply button, at least we think he did.

Well put.

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I might say that the existence of God is an inescapable Truth

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You might .... and I might not agree. You are merely expressing an article of faith, which is beyond the bounds of testability.

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Truth cannot be dispoved, if the facts point against truth then the facts are wrong

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Rather the "truth" is just an article of faith which has been contradicted, even disproved, by the facts.

To my mind for something to qualify as a fact it must be true, else it is a belief (if it is not testable) or an error (if, on testing, it proves to be incorrect). Fact and truth are irreducibly linked. To claim that things which can only be believed are "Truth" is wishful thinking, at the most charitable, a mere assertion.

Someone dragged in Einstein and Newton earlier - I would restate the position: Einstein did not "disprove" Newtonian mechanics, merely defined the limits of its truth, subsuming it into a greater truth with wider applicability. Apples didn't suddenly stop falling at 9.81m/s/s the day the General Theory of Relativity was published. For the majority of phenonema available to the human senses, Newtonian physics works just fine. If we need to look elsewhere, we need to use the Einsteinian or Heisenburgian models, as appropriate.

And if we look even further, we need to use the biblical models.:laugh4:

:laugh4: Shhh!!!

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Originally Posted by macsen rufus

You might .... and I might not agree. You are merely expressing an article of faith, which is beyond the bounds of testability.

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I'm actually not expressing anything here. I try to keep my personal theology out of arguements like this, just so we're clear on my meaning. God was just the nearest example.

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Rather the "truth" is just an article of faith which has been contradicted, even disproved, by the facts.

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No, because fact and truth do not affect each other, that's my point.

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To my mind for something to qualify as a fact it must be true, else it is a belief (if it is not testable) or an error (if, on testing, it proves to be incorrect). Fact and truth are irreducibly linked. To claim that things which can only be believed are "Truth" is wishful thinking, at the most charitable, a mere assertion.

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Well actuall there is no such thing as a fact. A Cold Hard Fact is a mental construct of convenience to prevent you from asking whether that tree is really a boat, a boat and a tree simultaniously or Banquo's tracked artillary in camoflage.

Or a Duck.

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Someone dragged in Einstein and Newton earlier - I would restate the position: Einstein did not "disprove" Newtonian mechanics, merely defined the limits of its truth, subsuming it into a greater truth with wider applicability. Apples didn't suddenly stop falling at 9.81m/s/s the day the General Theory of Relativity was published. For the majority of phenonema available to the human senses, Newtonian physics works just fine. If we need to look elsewhere, we need to use the Einsteinian or Heisenburgian models, as appropriate.

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What Einstien did was prove that Newton's theories were not fact, and actually a bit wrong. Newtonian Physics was never more than a theory that had been accepted as fact by convention. You just provided the ideal example for my arguement.

A fact is a fact as long as it remains disproved. Truth is unassailable.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Well, I'd claim so anyway, it's not called a theory because it's a fact, it's called a theory because it's a theory. Might be a very good and accepted one, but that still doesn't make it a fact.:inquisitive:

You know, in the middle ages, a very good and widely accepted theory was that the world was flat, that didn't make it true, did it?

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Scientific theory = theory with a lot of evidence supporting it and no known countra-arguments, plus a theoretical model, considered sensible, has been created, each possible way of cross-validating each part of it has been carried out in an extensive manner.

A few scientific theories include: gravity (jumping from a church tower is usually a bad idea), thermal conduction (touching a hot plate and keeping your hand on it is not a good idea), theorems of impedance (why the computer you sit behind when reading this at all exists), etc.

Evolution is not a theory, it's a scientific theory. It can't be compared to ridiculous fanatical ideas about flat earth, flying spaghetti monsters, and mankind being created out of dust and a rib, which have no supporting evidence whatsoever (unless you forget about Occam's razor, in which case you're allowed to state that the existence of water is proof of the existence of a big allmightly monster called "odfasfgag" which creates this water by eating people and octosquids, processing this in its intestines, and creates the water by peeing).

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

I might say that the existence of God is an inescapable Truth, because try as I might I can't get away from him but his existence is not a fact.

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Breakups aren't that difficult really... just SMS him if you don't dare saying it to him in person: "there never was anything between us, but now it's over, and it's not your fault, it's mine" :wink:

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

I'm actually not expressing anything here.

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An inherently untrue statement. :cheesy:

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

I try to keep my personal theology out of arguements like this, just so we're clear on my meaning. God was just the nearest example.

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This is a good statement.


Horetore:

Theory is not fact. Grad school (where your intelligence will demand you show up eventually) will eat you alive if you can't use scientific language with precision.

You can say that the ToE is "tantamount to fact," "supported by an overwhelming abundance of data," or "the only explanation that even begins to make sense of all of the issues involved" -- which is what you've been arguing (correctly) so far -- but saying it hasn't been disproved so now it's a fact is sloppy.

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

But the Earth isn't a planet - it is the Center of the Universe - and hence, flat. I can't make it planar than that.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

:whip:
That was painful.

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Flattery will get you nowhere. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Hore Tore: Fact and Truth are in no way related. a fact is testable, Truth merely is.

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A truth is not testable in the way that the answer cannot prove it false. Ie, a truth cannot be disproved. You can of course test it to see whether it is true or not(and the result will always be that it is true). This is, of course, assuming that we will ever find the truth. Which seems rather unlikely...

For example, let's assume that 2+2=4 is TRUE. Now, I can test and check if that really is true, however, if it actually is the truth, then the answer can never be anything but yes.

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

Flattery will get you nowhere. :laugh4:

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:no: Honestly Greg, that deserves a sphere warning.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Uh.... You've misunderstood the word "theory". In a scientific sense, it does mean "fact"... Just facts that you can disprove, unlike blind faith...

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No, No, No, No, No, No, NO!

All scientific "proposals" are to a certain extent tentative, whether they are classed as hypotheses, theories or laws. Scientists are very comfortable (at least the good ones are) with disgarding ideas when the evidence no longer supports them. If the ideas were "facts" then the evidence would be disregarded instead, wouldn't it?

If you believe in creationism then you have to accept that your ideas fly in the face of the available evidence. The idea that scientists are wilfully or stupidly misinterpreting it has no intellectual merit whatever. Similarly the notion that science deals in concepts proved beyond any doubt is fundamentally wrong and at bottom just as blinkered as believing the Earth is flat.