:laugh4: I don't know how you came up with that, but it's genius!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
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:laugh4: I don't know how you came up with that, but it's genius!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
Well look at Holland, what can I be loyal to?
There's nothing which is worth it
You're aiming at my part about god, no? In that case, I merely meant that since I'm firmly convinced that there is no god, I can't be loyal to one. If someone does believe in a god or more, they can most certainly be loyal to what that/those god/gods is and stand for, because they believe that/those god/gods does exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zain
Just wanted to mention the most important part in bold.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Vicious Monkey
They believe in something you say doesn't exist. That can make people mad.
Not me though, it's 7 in the morning and I'm too tired to get mad just yet... :sleepy:
Ah, but then again I believe in the Great Spaghetti Monster, which they say doesn't exist. Which can make me mad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zain
My order of loyalty is pretty much the order in which the options are presented. With the sole exceptions of God and Gah. Actually, no, to Gah I am somewhat loyal also.
I agree with Husar. There is no way to tell what I'd be more loyal to. Some of the scenarios that sprang to mind were, if a family member/friend was in trouble with the police and came to me for help, would I turn them in or help them? Would my friends/family come over my duty to the community/country. Obviously it would depend on the situation and so I can't say. And since we're considering the God option to also be good morals another example I thought of was a real life one.
A complete ass who is with my auntie has alienated her from the rest of our family, convinced her to throw my grandparents out of their home (which they were renting from her) and has been causing all sorts of trouble within our family which was actually relatively harmonious before he came along. One day on the way up north to go camping we stopped at their place near Auckland because my parents felt obliged to say hello to my Aunt since she was family and wasn't actually that bad a person.
The fat slob was sitting in his reclining chair from which he didn't move and after a while ended up yelling at my parents over the fact we were going to stop on the way to get dinner at one of the small townships. He bellowed "You won't find anyone around here who does that! Once you're on the main highway you STAY on it!" And then insulted my parents about how stupid they were for wanting to stop there, and for choosing Burger King over McDonalds. My two younger brothers sat on the couch next to me watching this bum abuse our parents and I was getting so mad I was getting ready to smack him in the face as I thought of everything else he's been responsible for. I managed to restrain myself and we left with our parents back to the car rather hurriedly. On the return trip my parents went back again to speak with my Aunt about something but I refused to go back in there because I knew I'd probably end up hitting him if I saw his face again.
Now to me that seems either to be putting morals (not hitting him and trying to be polite) over standing up for my family. The more I think about it the more I start to regret not at least yelling at him. Instead I just remained silent the entire time.
So anyway that's why I just voted Gah, because different situations call for different priorities. You never truly know how you'll react when faced with a situation.
:shrug:
Primary - Friends/Family. A bit of a toss up between that and myself, but when I think about it, taking loyalty at its definition, there's no way that I'd be disloyal to either my friends, or my family, so that's going to go at primary. Certainly you need to be loyal to yourself, but that's very much a given, and the true test of loyalty is what you'd do for others.
Secondary - Country. A bit of an odd choice, I admit, as I'm not at all nationalistic. But going through the same test of faith, I wouldn't betray my country, so I think it's fair to say that my loyalty remains to it.
A quick run through of the others:
Community - community for me is very much the close one (friends/family) and the greater national one. There really is no cohesive local community for me in this regard, certainly not one that trumps friendship or nationalism.
Population - well, the good of humanity may be a lofty goal; but it's unrealistic, imho, and thus not worthy of loyalty.
God - athiest.
If they do get mad about that, it's their problem. If they're so intolerant that they can't accept that not everyone believes the same as them, it's their problem. People here has been saying that god exists, why can't I say he doesn't? Mind you, I wasn't commenting what anyone else had said, I just stated my opinion that god doesn't exist, and therefor I can't be loyal to him. Which I'm completely entitled to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zain
Primary: myself. Whatever else, if I can't be loyal to myself then who can I possibly be loyal to?
Secondary: family/friends. To be honest, it's also primary in a way: if I'm to be loyal to myself there's no way I couldn't be loyal to family and friends, that would go against my nature.
So, all in all, I guess I mean to say that being loyal to myself is a win/win for everyone. Worst kind of deception is self-deception.
My point was just to say don't deliberately try to rile up Christians. You didn't. It was primarily for future posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Vicious Monkey
Loyalty? Gah - I would betray myself too if I only got the chance!
To explain what I voted for, I'd like to quote a song by the Sex Pistols:
"I've seen you in the mirror
When the story began
And I fell in love with you
[---]
I got no emotions for anybody else
You'd better understand I'm in love with my self
My self, my beautiful self
A no feelings a no feelings
A no feelings
For anybody else"
God: Doesn't exist. No feelings there.
Population as a whole: I don't like people.
Country: Countries are imaginative and only create bigotry and chauvinism. No, thank you.
Community: I don't like people, and they're only worse once you get to know them.
Family/friends: My friends are good people, since they're basically the same as me. They wouldn't risk their life for me though, so I wouldn't risk mine for their's.
Yourself: I like being me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Innocentius
I argee with you on every point expect for God, because I do believe in him.
But yea, I hate people, so, and so yea. :yes:
I chose
(but not in order I chose to disregard this)
God
family(including me)
personal definition
I don't think that's the problem. It was when you stated, as if your belief was unquestionable, that God doesn't exist, when some people started to take issue. If you had said that you believe God doesn't exist, that would be something different. Whether it was simply your phrasing, or if you actually meant it, you may have come across as the more intolerant one in this scenario.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Vicious Monkey
He worded what I couldn't. Thanks man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
Well, I do believe that it's unquestionable; however, if you wish to believe it, I'm fine with that. I respect your right to believe what you want, and won't stop you from doing it. So if anything, it was simply my phrasing that may have come off as intolerant, though I didn't mean to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
In any case, what I really meant to say was that I don't believe..., but quite honestly I was simply too lazy to do that. I didn't expect that it would get this reaction, but if I had known, I would've bloody well written those three damned words! I've spent a million dollars avoiding a ten dollar fine.
I'd say it's just as valid to state that there is not question that god does NOT exist, as it is to state that he does. And just as offensive.
You're a good man The Vicious Monkey, not many people will reconcile their "mistakes" on threads like these.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Vicious Monkey
My whole lesson on all of this is, be Extremely careful what you say about religion and gods on the internet, because it's a Very touchy subject.
:bow:
It's more offensive for a God believer to hear that his Savior and Lord doesn't exist compared to a non-believer to hear about an idea he doesn't believe in exists.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
I apologize, I'm typing one handed and can't express my ideas as clearly as I'd like to at this moment.
Pfft. If he wants his right to say that god does exist, I reserve the right to claim that he does not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zain
If he's touchy about it, I can't see how that can be my problem.
Also, wouldn't he be equally offended by another religious person of a different faith says that his god exists, as that effectively means that the other god does not exist?
Yes, that's the way biblical believers think. They're God is the one and only.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
It doesn't matter to me what anyone really thinks about who's "most" offended, because it doesn't matter. I got my point across to The Vicious Monkey, and that's good enough for me.
Could we return to the subject of the thread and not divert into a purely religious discussion?
Thank you kindly.
:bow:
~:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zain
Yes, that's a great idea. Back on topic.
Myself foremost. Though I don't put myself far before my friends and family; I certainly wouldn't do anything to benefit myself if it were detrimental to their well being.
Population as a whole, secondly. If I can do something for "the greater good", I'll certainly try. Though such opportunities seldom arrise for powerless recluses like m'self.
Since I am God, this poll is kinda hard to choose one option from... :embarassed:
1. God
2. Self
3. Country
4. Family, Friends
1) Family/Friends - But specifically my wife. I would do anything to keep her from harm.
2) Self
I love my community, country, and the world as a whole, but they are all far from infallible. I will not support any of them when they do things I disagree with. As for God, I don't believe in a diety in any typically religious sense. The 'God' I believe in has nothing to be loyal to. For me, that's like saying "I'm loyal to gravity."
I wouldn't always put myself first. It ofcourse depens on the situation. If I'm in a dessert for example with another guy. I have a bottle of water, the oher guy doesn't. IF I know that we both could make it wih a bottle of water each, but die if we'd share. I'd keep the bottle to myself. However if the chance would be low that I'd survive, but much higher for the other guy if he had to bottle. I'd give it to him.
Also the same with me vs. my country/freinds. If my country or freind got attacked, I'd take a beating/give my life, to defend it or him/her. If my country/freind asked me ti attack someone however, I would never be ready to give my life or take the beating.
Something which I somehow find immoral and "evil" of myself is that, I'd also would put freinds/my country/my community above that of the total population. For example, I give money to sharity, to poor countries in Africa, Asia or Latin America. But if I'd find an easy, working, acceptable, realistic and workable solution to global poverty, I might not even share or excute it if it'd reduce my countries/community richeness to much. Which is, I think, evil and wrong because of many reasons...
Am I the only one who thinks this?
God? Well, I'm no actual believer. And I think you'd be a fool to put something you don't really believe in above yourself, your freinds,... For example, a jew sacrificing his life for Buddha's sake (I know Buddha isn'ts god, but you know what I mean), well seems rather bizarre to me...
However Ideals or Ideas I'd strongly belief in, I'd defend them and fight for them none the less. (You're lucky I don't think that attacking the USA would make a god happy. There wouldn't be many skyscrapers left ~;))
A bit the samurai way, I think.