Which are better? Makedonia or KH?

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Originally Posted by gran_guitarra

No, it is not. Firstly, you place your elites on the flank, behind the phalanxes there. This way they are protected from missile units that can hit them, and can function as flank guards for your phalanx. What you do is wait until the enemy is completely involved in fighting your phalanx, then you charge them around the side and surround their flank units. After that a cavalry charge or two breaks them and initiates a chain reaction. I've used that tactic many many times with a very large degree of sucess.

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I bet you did. I do not argue that you can not USE elite troops/assault troops on your flanks. The only thing I argue is that it's a perfect waste of money and recruitment power; adds in a lot of extra administrative hassle. And I don't really see how you are going to support a multi front war when you insist on having elite troops on the flanks at all time; especially so because of the added turns it requires you to bring them to the field (because of the shipping distance).

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Uuuuuum, no. They need a Regional MIC, and then its only in Demetrias. The Makedonians get them in Pella and Demetrias, from their factional MIC, which gives them the advantage.

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Oh, oh are you so very mistaken: they perform as mercs all over the area. Which is why I think this argument is null and void.

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No, two elite units on one flank and assaulters on the other will not keep me from fielding many armies. Especially if I control northern Greece, Thraikia, and Illyria. The whole point is that the Hypaspitai and Pheraspidai make incredible flank guards, and can turn into flankers to create a massive slaughterhouse on the enemy flanks, which causes a nasty route after a cavalry charge or two, and then your phalanxes turn the center into a bobbing for enemies game.

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As I said before, sure they can. Mind you: so can the Thorakitai Hoplitai; the Iphikratous Hoplitai; Thorakitai; Thureophoroi; and Peltastai. Easily. Especially Thorakitai Hoplitai and Iphikratous Hoplitai will come out of this very succesfully since they can "ram" & roll up your battle line by virtue of phalanx formation. (I myself have been very succesful at anihilating AS armies that way when I wasn't the addicted AS player I am now.)

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That is why you place them behind the phalanxes. The slingers will target/hit the phalanxes because of the limits of the engines. So barely any stones will hit, and of those a very small percent will actually damage a unit or two.

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I think you've misunderstood my point: I would go about and use the sphendonetai as flankers. They will keep their distance from your line; and they will be supported by a unit or two of spearmen (if you would simply send in your cavalry; I could rely on the Caucasian Light infantry for the job; they absolutely love Hetairoi for breakfast :grin: And cost the same as Pantodapoi; pity the AI can't use them properly) I was thinking of Thorakitai.

You may smash one flank; but it'll be end of the game for your cavalry that way. This is how I go about and crush the endless hordes of AI stacks everybody has to face sooner or later.

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Very valid points (wtf are the Thorakitai Hoplitai? I though that the only unit the KH had on level with Hypaspitai/Pheraspidai was Spartiatai Hoplitai.

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Thorakitai Hoplitai are the standard KH troops of the level of Hypaspistai (and if you ask me they are even better than Pheraspidai/Hypaspistai). The only other faction to have such a unit is the Ptolemaioi: called the Basilikon Agema. (Those were the guys who were one of the major factors leading to the disaster (for the Seleukides that is) at Rhaphia.) A heavy version of Iphikratous Hoplitai; armoured in chain mail and basically the most brutal the KH can get. That is, till the new units are in the public release. Those Epilektoi...

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Nevertheless, I can switch to auxiliaries such as the Triballoi, Samnitici Milites in Italia, and Nudists/Heavy Spearmen in Turkey.
Even so, I see that you have an excellent point.

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Your heavy spearmen are actually a notch weaker than the Hypaspistai; and your Nudists are available to the KH as well. (As are the Samnitici Milites.) So I wouldn't count on them. ~;)

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Was this directed at me? and why the heck would I care about Massiliotes? They are even farther away than the Triballoi, and require the same MIC, while being available in only one city. I can see how they would be valuable to Rome, Epeiros, or any of the Gallic factions, but the KH?

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I thought your last statement about Hoplitai compared to Agrianikoi Peluklephoroi was about the Massalitotai. But I should've read more carefully. :shame: Anyhow those are some troops which are not to be ignored. And yes, they are very valuable to the KH because they will be typically the best regional troops in cost/effectiveness that are to be found in a very wide area and thus a very majore portion of your game. (FYI: The KH has to acquire Massalia and Arse.)

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Anyhow apart from all this disagreeing with each other; bear in mind that I don NOT think the KH has a BETTER military than Makedonia has.

My very first & long post in this thread was just some observations of mine towards both militaries. I happen to feel that both militaries pale before the infinitely more interesting & wide range of possibilities the AS has to offer.
The only reason why I actually stick to argumenting pro KH is that some Makedonian lovers have made numerous weak (and to a certain extent downright flawed) arguments for "their" case.

Read Bootsiuv's post. :yes:

~:eek: ~:eek: ~:eek:

I'm sorry I asked the question.

No, not really, it's good to see someone with arguments. Well, with EB 1 coming out pretty soon, looks like KH or Makedonia will have to wait.

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Horse archers... Well both Makedonia & KH have excellent Anti Horse archer units now I come to think of it: sphendonetai. Add in a bunch of eastern mercs/regionals to supplement you with some quick & cheap fire power... :shrug:

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Maybe I do something wrong but Sphendonetai usually die faster than you can watch it, because the AI rightfully tends to concentrate their fire on them. And the non-existance of armour contributes greatly to that. I think the best anti-horse archer unit is light cavalry, combined perhaps with Pezhetairoi in Phalanx-mode to absorb the ammunition. ~D They are great in absorbing.

Btw, when you do flanking maneuvers, does the AI always send out an infantry unit that tries to chase after your cavalry? I find this extremely annoying. The enemy units get distracted and after you crushed the main force, you have work left in overthrowing wide-spread single units any hint to avoid this? Especially I can't think of how to get over that behaviour when you flank with Sphendonetai as you proposed.

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

(Oh, they have been previewed alright, so I can tell you this: in the next release the KH will get another regional from their factional MICs in the Bosphoran regions. They should make excellent HA killers.)

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I think you are talking of Thureophoroi Toxotai?

MK's units are superior to HK in every aspect but flexibility. If Mk wasn't busy harboring those annoying toothsticks , epeirotes and getai MK would crush the HK and have there foundations crashing down upon them.

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Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus

Maybe I do something wrong but Sphendonetai usually die faster than you can watch it, because the AI rightfully tends to concentrate their fire on them. And the non-existance of armour contributes greatly to that. I think the best anti-horse archer unit is light cavalry, combined perhaps with Pezhetairoi in Phalanx-mode to absorb the ammunition. ~D They are great in absorbing.

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But Horse archers lack the ammunition: you've got to tie them into a steady missile exchange. Horse archers will die even faster; but you NEED to supplement your sphendonetai with Eastern/Cretan Archers.

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Btw, when you do flanking maneuvers, does the AI always send out an infantry unit that tries to chase after your cavalry? I find this extremely annoying. The enemy units get distracted and after you crushed the main force, you have work left in overthrowing wide-spread single units any hint to avoid this? Especially I can't think of how to get over that behaviour when you flank with Sphendonetai as you proposed.

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If you use light troops in front of your heavy infantry support then the AI will send it's cavalry. Which you promptly slaughter with your supportive heavy infantry. Problem solved. ~;)

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I think you are talking of Thureophoroi Toxotai?

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Almost: Thureopherontes Toxotai. But both names would mean the same, btw.

I decided to fire up EB for the first time in a few weeks today, so I could look over the save game for our KH succession game.

Feeling somewhat inspired by the recent discussions in this thread, I decided to fire up my own little KH game just for fun....everyone was asleep for once as an added bonus. Aaaah, peace and quiet.

First turn - I pulled the entire spartan garrison save the governor and combined them with the hegemons troops, and lay siege to korinthos. Since this game was for fun, I decided to live life on the edge and attack Chalkis on the first turn with the entire athenian garrison save one hoplitai Haploi, so Antigonus can't just walk into my most important city.

Second Turn - With two of his cities under siege, Antigonus still heads north to save Pella. Korinthos and Chalkis fall on turn 2. The end of the Maks is already in sight.

Over the next two years, I consolidated my position and built an improved MIC in Athenai. Money was abundant, and I was able to train quite a formidable force by 269 BC.

The following spring I invaded Thessalonica, and layed siege to Demetrias.

This is what the Maks had as their primary force in the region...

https://i195.photobucket.com/albums/..._2007/MAK1.jpg

If you'll notice, the Maks have three divisions of Hoplites i.e. 240 at full strength....they only have ~300 Phalangites. Aside from the Prodromoi, I fail to see anything which is all that impressive.

Given my ample resources (and the fact I was able to get over 20000 in diplomacy from the Epeirotes paying for an alliance, and the AS desperately wanting peace for some reason), I was able to create a force which was hardly inferior to what Antigonos could muster...

https://i195.photobucket.com/albums/...uv_2007/kh.jpg

Easily enough to deal with an early Mak army, and Iphikrates Hoplites and Thuerophoroi were only six months away, after I invested over 10000 in the Athenian MIC's.

It's almost too easy...

Is Antigonus scripted to go north or something (which I don't even think is possible)? Maybe Phyrrus should be placed further away from Pella? He obviously sees the Epeirotes near his capital as the greater threat, and has gone north in every kh game I've ever played. Just a little predictable, is all.

I was also able to invest in retraining most of my troops in sparte for the experience bonus and/or athenai for the arms/armor bonus. I also invested over 13000 in mercenary forces. All of this by turn 16.

If you ask me, the KH early game may be amongst the easiest in the game. It's they're mid-game where things start to get tough.

Strangely enough, they start out with only 3000 in the bank, which is one of the lowest starting treasuries in the game AFAIK.

AFAIK we have no scripted moves incorporated. However there's this guys Pyrrhos standing on the doorstep of Antigonos' palace -such things tend to make the AI a bit nervous - and Pyrrhos faces about the same problem with both the Romans (Taras) and he has rebels nearby as well. (Which is another target the Mak AI tends to go for: driving off the one rebel army representing some Aeolian league forces...

In campaign KH has the serious advantage of their elite foot guards. Two or three family members can take Kornith and Chalkis more or less on their own within a few turns. As well as two family members alone can prevent Makedonia from storming Athens: the Maks have nothing in their starting armies to clear the walls from those men - and without that they can't bring in their superior cavalry.

I just 'came across them': to get a unit of 100 Greek bodyguard down I needed

- 162 Triarii
- 162 Hoplitai
- 240 Peltastai
- 162 Principes
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= 726 good men, including elite

all together, and with not few casulties.


So KH, a player who forgets about management, unrest and the like duties and drafts any and all family member in his army will be able to blitz Makedonia. Makedonia, on the other hand, can't do anything the like, as long as KH is not so kind to offer all her men in an open battle; or fair enough to wait until Makedonia is able to raise elite infantry as well.

That's what I tell you all the time. The KH is overpowered! Although they seem have the inferior roster... Thanks for the explanation btw Tellos.~:)

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Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus

That's what I tell you all the time. The KH is overpowered! Although they seem have the inferior roster... Thanks for the explanation btw Tellos.~:)

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LOL!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Thorakitai Hoplitai are the standard KH troops of the level of Hypaspistai (and if you ask me they are even better than Pheraspidai/Hypaspistai). The only other faction to have such a unit is the Ptolemaioi: called the Basilikon Agema. (Those were the guys who were one of the major factors leading to the disaster (for the Seleukides that is) at Rhaphia.) A heavy version of Iphikratous Hoplitai; armoured in chain mail and basically the most brutal the KH can get. That is, till the new units are in the public release. Those Epilektoi...

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Actually, the Basilikon Agema were part of the wing routed by Antiochos in his initial charge.:smash:

Your kidding right?

Your talking about Epilektoi Hoplitai? The ones that can form a phalanx, have short spears, chain mail, and are generally just an upped version of Iphikratous Hoplitai?
Those guys get creamed by Argyraspidai, and I'm pretty sure that they cannot get recruited before them. Same thing with Basilikon Agema. Their stats are inferior to the Argyraspidai and there are less of them.

btw, isn't it wierd that the Ptolemaic elite phalanx has stats worse than Pezhetairoi? They have something like 14 attack and 20 defense, whereas Pezhetairoi have 15 attack and 20 defense.
Just thought I'd point out that a Ptolemaic elite unit should have more punch than a Makedonian/Seleukid regular trooper.


Like I said, the only place where the KH are better than the Makedonians is in elites, since the Spartiatai are only inferior to the Vascii Shock Troops and their knockoffs. Everywhere else, phalanxes, assault troops, flankers, cavalry, the Makedonians are superior.

I don't think anyone is arguing with you on that.

I think they were referring to Thorakitai Hoplitai. The Epilektoi are the KH's current bodyguard unit if I'm not mistaken.

@gran_guitarra

That was a stats issue. There was a mess up and the stats have been corrected.