5 Hurt in School Shooting

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Originally Posted by Cambyses II

Or a kitchen knife or a spade, or a screwdriver for that matter. You could even kill them with your bare hands, that's not the point. The point is that a gun, unlike the aformentioned implements, is actually a lethal, often concealable, ranged, rapid firing high velocity projectile weapon, that is actually fundamentally designed to kill people or animals.

A person that goes on the rampage with a knife can be pinned down and disarmed and is only a threat to the people in his/her immediate vicinity, a gunman is quite obviously something else altogether. The issue is not simply the risk of "madmen" getting their hands on a gun either. Any individual that is otherwise sound of mind can simply lose control in certain circumstances, having a gun handy at such a time could prove fatal to both the individual concerned and others. If you hear noises in your house at night you may think you've been broken into and shoot the intruder dead in a panic. When the intruder turns out to be your husband/wife/son/daughter/father/mother that had got up during the night for whatever reason, it would probably change your ideas about gun ownership and availability somewhat.

IMHO guns have no place in any civilised society. If a particular community gets to the stage where it's residents feel compelled to bear any kind of arms for their own protection then there's obviously something else fundamentally wrong with it.

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f you hear noises in your house at night you may think you've been broken into and shoot the intruder dead in a panic. When the intruder turns out to be your husband/wife/son/daughter/father/mother that had got up during the night for whatever reason, it would probably change your ideas about gun ownership and availability somewIhat.

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Well you don't shoot the person when you first see him. Easy as that. Plus why would your Husband,kid,etc, be out 3 in the morning.....:inquisitive:



IMO, GUns should be allowed. Just not assault rifles and such.


How about Bow and Arrows? Someone who is good with that can always go into a school. Won't be easy to conceal, but if the School has no Guards or anything, or some dinky Rent-A-Cops with only Pepper Sprary, then. you know.



Mongols Killed Hundreds of Thousands of people with Bows and Arrows, and their Swords in their deceades of rule. Think someone today who is good enough with one or more of them can't take out 5-10 kids? Come on now guys. Go ahead and Ban Guns, or Seveley Limited them, and see what Kids do next. :shame:



edit: Ronin, Yes they are. Go ahead and fight someone with a long Knife. unless you trained to disarm him, it's going to be hard.

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Originally Posted by Ronin

are you telling me that an average person with a gun is no more dangerous than an average person with a knife? (and I mean average in like not a special forces commando that was trained to kill an entire batallion with a knife....you know most people don´t have those skills).

then it´s me who´s calling bull.

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Read my last sentence in what you quoted, obviously you've never handled a gun either or taken any martial art. First off, try shooting a handgun sometime for accuracy, even a little one. Try a target maybe 5, 10 feet away. It's not easy at all. Care of a gun, loading it, transporting it (I can't imagine carrying a loaded weapon around), proper respect of it. People who don't know how to use a weapon are more dangerous to themselves than to others around them. Even someone with some experience and training isn't going to be a sniper like people are seeming to claim, but they will in theory be more deadly with the weapon. Second, even a NORMAL person with a knife is going to be dangerous, you don't need your "special forces" training to be able to seriously injure someone. And if you've ever seen or tried to train under even moderately skilled individuals with close action weapons, you'll rapidly learn to appreciate how scary and deadly it can be if it were real life, and again this is with little to moderate skill.

Only because I saw this while reading this thread.
Report: School Shootings Help Prepare Students For Being Shot In Real World

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Originally Posted by Whacker

So are bows/crossbows and arrows. I mean, those were fundamentally designed to kill animals and people, right? Look what those horrid Mongols did with them hundreds of years ago, I'm surprised we haven't all banned those yet

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I would recomment you to check your local laws about that, because they're usually quite restricted nowadays.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

I call bull and strawman. Someone who knows how to use a knife is going to be just as dangerous if not moreso deadly than someone with a gun. A gun has a finite number of bullets, and one can only carry so many clips. A person with a knife and a reasonable amount of skill has a weapon just as deadly that doesn't require reloading.

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Stabbing only works well in close combat vs one or a few targets (and preferbly with the element of surprice), if someone is planning to go down in a blaze of murder, guns will work better. The bullets will run out eventually, but I'm quite certain that you won't volounteer to be the bullet wasting target.
The modern gun is better than a musket, yet the musket replaced the knife (well not reallly, but that ranged warfare did mostly replace the melee by some odd reason).

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Originally Posted by Whacker

And the part about "blocking" or "disarming" is utter bunk. I don't care if you get 4 football linemen to charge someone wielding a razor sharp axe, but at least one of them is going to get seriously maimed/injured/outright killed. The same goes for a proficient martial artist with a knife or other stabbing/slashing weapon, in fact it'd probably just about impossible to disarm him physically without several people getting outright killed/wounded.

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Well if you have to disarm someone with a knife, you're supposed to make him stab you were it matters less (like your left arm if righthanded). And you can often get something in the environment to even the odds a bit. Convincing the dude with a gun to only shot you in the arm can be slightly trickier and they are often such poor sportman, that they fire upon you when you flee.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

People are shot all the time and live to tell about, some even with head wounds and other vital places.

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And getting touched by a knife causes instant death right? ~:rolleyes: Anybody got statistics on wounding vs killing for knives and guns btw?

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Originally Posted by Whacker

Saying a gun is by definition more deadly or "easy" to use is tripe. I'm going to make a guess by your statements that you've both never handled a gun before, nor have you taken any kind of martial art.

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To get an easy kill after that people have noticed your intensions are a bit easier with a gun than using a nice martial art killing move (or a knife for that matter).


Sure, guns doesn't cause mass killings, but they make them a lot easier. If you wanna refute that, I'll content with some nice camparations of mass stabbings vs mass shootings, especially at more open environments like schools.

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Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888

edit: Ronin, Yes they are. Go ahead and fight someone with a long Knife. unless you trained to disarm him, it's going to be hard.

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I never said it would be easy.....I said that disarming a normal person with a knife is a lot harder than disarming a normal person with a gun.......with a knife it´s dangerous but you have a chance......with a gun you´re just screwed...

and to the point were you said "if you take away guns kids will find some other way"....if you look at countries that don´t have legalized gun ownership I don´t see news about kids walking into schools and killing 10-20 of their classmates with knifes....so why doesn´t it happen?....are foreign kids just not commited enough to kill? "damn modern slacker kids! when I was your age I had to walk across the snow to get to school and kill someone! think that stopped me???"

the truth is that a gun present a ready made, easy solution if you want to produce a lot of damage.....sure you could do lots of damage in other ways....but not with any other tool that presents the same advantages in ease of use, portability, being easily concealed, etc.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

Read my last sentence in what you quoted, obviously you've never handled a gun either or taken any martial art. First off, try shooting a handgun sometime for accuracy, even a little one. Try a target maybe 5, 10 feet away. It's not easy at all. Care of a gun, loading it, transporting it (I can't imagine carrying a loaded weapon around), proper respect of it. People who don't know how to use a weapon are more dangerous to themselves than to others around them. Even someone with some experience and training isn't going to be a sniper like people are seeming to claim, but they will in theory be more deadly with the weapon. Second, even a NORMAL person with a knife is going to be dangerous, you don't need your "special forces" training to be able to seriously injure someone. And if you've ever seen or tried to train under even moderately skilled individuals with close action weapons, you'll rapidly learn to appreciate how scary and deadly it can be if it were real life, and again this is with little to moderate skill.

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I have taken marcial arts classes and I have shoot a gun yes...I still call bull..

If I had the choice between having to fight a guy armed with a knife or one armed with a gun (considering he has the same level of skill with both of them) I would have to pick the knife guy every day of the week and twice on sunday.

once again I never claimed that the normal guy with the knife isn´t dangerous...he still is.....but much less than the same moron with a gun....like I said before I don´t see the news crazy knife-rampages going on in non-gun countries so something tells me your theory is full of holes.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

Read my last sentence in what you quoted, obviously you've never handled a gun either or taken any martial art. First off, try shooting a handgun sometime for accuracy, even a little one. Try a target maybe 5, 10 feet away. It's not easy at all.

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Well you don't need a perfect shot to wound someone, human targets are a bit larger than that. And due to the semi-automatic nature, it will usually come more than one shot in your direction.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

Read my last sentence in what you quoted, obviously you've never handled a gun either or taken any martial art. First off, try shooting a handgun sometime for accuracy, even a little one. Try a target maybe 5, 10 feet away. It's not easy at all. Care of a gun, loading it, transporting it (I can't imagine carrying a loaded weapon around), proper respect of it. People who don't know how to use a weapon are more dangerous to themselves than to others around them. Even someone with some experience and training isn't going to be a sniper like people are seeming to claim, but they will in theory be more deadly with the weapon. Second, even a NORMAL person with a knife is going to be dangerous, you don't need your "special forces" training to be able to seriously injure someone. And if you've ever seen or tried to train under even moderately skilled individuals with close action weapons, you'll rapidly learn to appreciate how scary and deadly it can be if it were real life, and again this is with little to moderate skill.

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Two questions:

1) If you were being attacked by 10 people, what would you rather have in your hand: a knife, or a Glock?

2) If knives are, as you said earlier, more deadly and advantageous to have than guns, then why is one of the pillars of the pro-gun argument that guns are absolutely necessary for home defence? As you say, every home in America already has an entire kitchen full of much more efficient killing tools than guns.

Add me on to the list of people calling "bull" on you.

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Originally Posted by Ronin

I never said it would be easy.....I said that disarming a normal person with a knife is a lot harder than disarming a normal person with a gun.......with a knife it´s dangerous but you have a chance......with a gun you´re just screwed...

and to the point were you said "if you take away guns kids will find some other way"....if you look at countries that don´t have legalized gun ownership I don´t see news about kids walking into schools and killing 10-20 of their classmates with knifes....so why doesn´t it happen?....are foreign kids just not commited enough to kill? "damn modern slacker kids! when I was your age I had to walk across the snow to get to school and kill someone! think that stopped me???"

the truth is that a gun present a ready made, easy solution if you want to produce a lot of damage.....sure you could do lots of damage in other ways....but not with any other tool that presents the same advantages in ease of use, portability, being easily concealed, etc.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre

England


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beirut_...rsity_shooting

Beirut

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt_massacre

Germany



Others:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shootings



Most of them are US yes, but it failed to list that, In Japan, a ADULT Killed EIGHT Small Children in a School with a....



Knife



Heard it on 20/20. if I find the source, you will get it. 20/20 also said most school violence in Europe/Asia is done by adults, with guns or knives, and in US mostly kids with Guns.

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Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888

Most of them are US yes, but it failed to list that, In Japan, a ADULT Killed EIGHT Small Children in a School with a....

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shootings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...elated_attacks

I think "most" is not the right word to compare the differences, LOL!

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Originally Posted by Cambyses II

IMHO guns have no place in any civilised society. If a particular community gets to the stage where it's residents feel compelled to bear any kind of arms for their own protection then there's obviously something else fundamentally wrong with it.

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Oh, so police in your country have no guns available to them?

I've heard this tripe about 'something fundamentally wrong' before and it always seems so smug. Do you live in a utopia where no crime is committed? Or are you ruled by angels who would never oppress you?
Oh, you don't? So maybe it isn't crazy to want to defend yourself? And just maybe there's not anything fundamentally wrong with us, but with a refusal to face reality.

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If you hear noises in your house at night you may think you've been broken into and shoot the intruder dead in a panic. When the intruder turns out to be your husband/wife/son/daughter/father/mother that had got up during the night for whatever reason, it would probably change your ideas about gun ownership and availability somewhat.

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Bah. Arguments that aren't made up out of thin air, please.

CR

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Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888

Most of them are US yes, but it failed to list that, In Japan, a ADULT Killed EIGHT Small Children in a School with a....


Knife

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wow....so you know of one such attack with a knife compared with the dozens of cases involving guns?..

wow..just wow...

what more can I say other than...

thanks for proving my point!:yes:

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Or are you ruled by angels who would never oppress you?

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This must be the lamest pro-gun argument ever.
And given that the pro-gun crowd is more often than not also the pro-Bush crowd, I find this kind of comment especially hilarious.

It's not as if Gitmo did not exist I guess, heh ? Oh, and there's the NSA thingy aswell. And the whole "You're either with us or against us" theory. While we're at it, let's not forget the whole anti-gays, anti-abortion, pro-creationism and overall anti-"anythingthatdoesntfitwithouropinion" crew that is trying to impose its values upon the american society.

What about currently using your guns to overthrow your current governement ? Cause AFAIK, I doubt we could find anything worse in the whole western world.

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Oh, so police in your country have no guns available to them?

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Nice try, but cops aren't residents of a society, nor do they are a specific community. They're just people paid by the state to enforce the law, with guns, staffs, tazzers or whatever else. When the leave their job, they leave their weapons aswell and become another average Joe. And the average Joe shouldn't have to bear arms, because :

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IMHO guns have no place in any civilised society. If a particular community gets to the stage where it's residents feel compelled to bear any kind of arms for their own protection then there's obviously something else fundamentally wrong with it.

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Nothing else to add. If you feel that guns are needed to protect yourself, then you're already doomed. Basically, it means that your civilizing process got screwed up at some point.
It might happen that at some point, everyone will have to bear a gun to protect his life. But it is by no means a solution. It's just a way to hidde the issue.

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Originally Posted by Ronin

wow....so you know of one such attack with a knife compared with the dozens of cases involving guns?..

wow..just wow...

what more can I say other than...

thanks for proving my point!:yes:

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And thanks for proving my point of, that you must be Anti-Gun. :yes:

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Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888

And thanks for proving my point of, that you must be Anti-Gun. :yes:

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yes I am...and proud of it...

I live in a civilized society with a functioning police force...no need for guns....so why should I be pro-gun?

nice attempt to step around the fact that your own research proved my point about guns being more dangerous than knifes tough.

This is clearly a cultural phenomenon and nothing more. Most US citizens have obviously been brought up with moderate exposure to firearms and many are probably convinced of their necessity as a security measure. Europeans, for the most part, have not and apart from a small minority, some of which inevitably criminal, have no desire to either possess or use a firearm for any purpose be it legal or otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

This must be the lamest pro-gun argument ever.

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Really? Our country was forged in such a manner. You bring up the alleged evils of the Bush administration; what if he actually was a tyrant, and the US populace as docile as certain others?

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Nice try, but cops aren't residents of a society, nor do they are a specific community.

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Cops aren't part of society? What madness is this? They are how society enforces its laws. A civilization is not part of a people or a fraction of a nation; it is the whole. And since all countries have police, and you say that civilized people don't use guns, then your countries are obviously uncivilized by your own admission.
If they have no place, then police should not have them, or you are uncivilized.

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Nothing else to add. If you feel that guns are needed to protect yourself, then you're already doomed.

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Funny, since I already addressed that. Crime happens in all nations - that reasoning therefore, holds that even your socialist European countries are fundamentally flawed.

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Basically, it means that your civilizing process got screwed up at some point.

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No, it means that concept of civilization is wrong, an ugly product of modern liberal thought rejects the foundation of modern government, more akin to feudalism than liberty.

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It might happen that at some point, everyone will have to bear a gun to protect his life. But it is by no means a solution. It's just a way to hidde the issue.

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What issue? Crime? How then is allowing people to defend themselves 'hiding' an issue? It is the very absolute opposite - it is gun control that hides the real issues of crime behind mindless demands for more controls and regulations on guns, ignoring the operator of the tool for what he uses. Take a glance at Britain and it is obvious.

CR

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Originally Posted by Destroyer of Hope

Its not like there's been anyothers. I have to agree with the again, 2 in a year seems like to many


You do relize that most emo kids arn't sucidal manics right? Its more the loners that you need to watch out for.

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lol no no destroyer....

they're most definitly like that :sweatdrop:

{BHC}KingWarman888, in response to your "evidence", I thought I'd post it here so people can decide for themselves. (Note: Israeli "shootings" removed as they are actually terrorist attacks).

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United States

* University of Texas at Austin massacre - Austin, Texas, United States; August 1, 1966
* Orangeburg Massacre - Orangeburg, South Carolina, United States; February 8, 1968
* Kent State shootings - Kent, Ohio, United States; May 4, 1970
* Jackson State killings - Jackson, Mississippi, United States; May 14-15, 1970
* California State University, Fullerton Library Massacre - Fullerton, California, United States; July 12, 1976
* Brenda Ann Spencer, Cleveland Elementary School - January 29, 1979
* Parkway South Junior High School shooting - Saint Louis, Missouri, United States; January 20, 1983
* Stockton massacre - Stockton, California, United States; January 17, 1989
* University of Iowa shooting - Iowa City, Iowa, United States; November 1, 1991
* Simon's Rock College of Bard shooting - Great Barrington, Massachusetts, United States; December 14, 1992
* East Carter High School shooting - Grayson, Kentucky, United States; January 18, 1993
* Richland High School shooting - Lynnville, Tennessee, United States; November 15, 1995.
* Frontier Junior High shooting - Moses Lake, Washington, United States; February 2, 1996
* Pearl High School shooting, Pearl, Mississippi, United States; October 1, 1997
* Heath High School shooting, West Paducah, Kentucky, United States; December 1, 1997
* Jonesboro massacre - Jonesboro, Arkansas, United States; March 24, 1998
* Thurston High School shooting - Springfield, Oregon, United States; May 21, 1998
* Columbine High School massacre - near Littleton, Colorado, United States; April 20, 1999
* Heritage High School shooting - Conyers, Georgia, United States; May 20, 1999
* Santana High School - Santee, California, United States; March 5, 2001
* Appalachian School of Law shooting - Grundy, Virginia, United States; January 16, 2002
* Rocori High School shootings - Cold Spring, Minnesota, United States; September 24, 2003
* Red Lake High School massacre - Red Lake, Minnesota, United States; March 21, 2005
* Campbell County High School - Jacksboro, Tennessee: November 8, 2005
* Platte Canyon High School shooting - Bailey, Colorado, United States; September 27, 2006
* Weston High School shooting, Cazenovia, Wisconsin September 29, 2006
* Amish school shooting - Nickel Mines, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, United States; October 2, 2006
* Henry Foss High School - Tacoma, Washington, United States January 3, 2007
* Virginia Tech massacre - Blacksburg, Virginia, United States; April 16, 2007
* SuccessTech Academy shooting - Cleveland, Ohio, United States; October 10, 2007

Canada

* Brampton Centennial Secondary School, Ontario, Canada - May, 1975
* École Polytechnique Massacre - Montreal, Quebec, Canada; December 6, 1989
* Concordia University massacre - Montreal, Quebec, Canada; August 24, 1992
* W. R. Myers High School shooting - Taber, Alberta, Canada; April 28, 1999
* Dawson College shooting - Montreal, Quebec, Canada; September 13, 2006
* C.W. Jefferys Collegiate Institute shooting - Toronto, Ontario, Canada; May 23, 2007

Other countries

* Raumanmeri's High School Shooting - Rauma, Finland, January 24, 1989
* Dunblane massacre - Dunblane, Scotland, United Kingdom; March 13, 1996
* Sanaa massacre - Sanaa, Yemen; March 30, 1997
* Erfurt massacre - Erfurt, Germany; April 26, 2002
* Monash University shooting - Melbourne, Australia; October 21, 2002
* Beirut Arab University shooting - Beirut, Lebanon; January 25, 2007

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I don't know if my eyes are deceiving me, but it looks like there are a lot more in the USA.

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Really? Our country was forged in such a manner.

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Really ? I thought your country was forged by having the advantage of being far away from the government and having major world powers fighting against that government .

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Originally Posted by Cambyses II

This is clearly a cultural phenomenon and nothing more. Most US citizens have obviously been brought up with moderate exposure to firearms and many are probably convinced of their necessity as a security measure. Europeans, for the most part, have not and apart from a small minority, some of which inevitably criminal, have no desire to either possess or use a firearm for any purpose be it legal or otherwise.

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I would say that it's the idea of a gun as security, as hunters isn't that uncommon and that most of the male population have been shooting quite a bit with assult rifles (that draft thingy). Admittably it's local conditions.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Funny, since I already addressed that. Crime happens in all nations - that reasoning therefore, holds that even your socialist European countries are fundamentally flawed.

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It's rather the issue of crimes were you carrying a gun would've made a difference. But sure, theft, muggings, beatings, murder etc doesn't have place in civilization. That's why the laws against it appeared in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

No, it means that concept of civilization is wrong, an ugly product of modern liberal thought rejects the foundation of modern government, more akin to feudalism than liberty.

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:laugh4: Feudalism :laugh4: ? You're aware that it's a non-centralized system where powers are granted on the idea of decentralized defense, right?

I do grant you that in a fully liberal (as in free) system whatever you carry a gun or not shouldn't be an issue... but the idea of a civilization also gives that you shouldn't really need to use the gun for defense in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

What issue? Crime? How then is allowing people to defend themselves 'hiding' an issue? It is the very absolute opposite - it is gun control that hides the real issues of crime behind mindless demands for more controls and regulations on guns, ignoring the operator of the tool for what he uses. Take a glance at Britain and it is obvious.

CR

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Hiding the issue is to get yourself a shotgun/gun to protect yourself against home invasions or school shootings and not ask yourself why they occur often enough to be something to worry about at your place, but not in other places (if you're unlucky enough to live in that spot, best thing is probably to do both though).

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Really ? I thought your country was forged by having the advantage of being far away from the government and having major world powers fighting against that government .

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It was forged in the name of freedom!!

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Originally Posted by Ironside

It's rather the issue of crimes were you carrying a gun would've made a difference. But sure, theft, muggings, beatings, murder etc doesn't have place in civilization. That's why the laws against it appeared in the first place.

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And yet they still exist; being 'civilized' doesn't make crime go away.

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:laugh4: Feudalism :laugh4: ? You're aware that it's a non-centralized system where powers are granted on the idea of decentralized defense, right?

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And based on giving up your freedom for protection.

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I do grant you that in a fully liberal (as in free) system whatever you carry a gun or not shouldn't be an issue... but the idea of a civilization also gives that you shouldn't really need to use the gun for defense in the first place.

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Yes, the idea of a civilization. But it's like the 2nd law of thermodynamics; ideas never fully become reality (as heat never fully converts to work). There is no perfect civilization, after all.

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Hiding the issue is to get yourself a shotgun/gun to protect yourself against home invasions or school shootings and not ask yourself why they occur often enough to be something to worry about at your place, but not in other places (if you're unlucky enough to live in that spot, best thing is probably to do both though).

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Oh, I think we should do what we can to combat crime before it begins. But we can never stop it all, and it doesn't hurt to be prepared. And like I said; look at Britain, and that boy who was killed riding his bike. Instead of soul searching in society, we hear the familiar refrain 'more gun control!'

CR

I have yet to see a persuasive argument for the gun laws in the US.

Heres how i see it, in Britain, you can buy a rifle or shotgun, you can shoot a rifle or shotgun, but first you must have insurance or certification or a qualified instructor thats all i can concieve a person reasonably wanting.

Handguns are banned because their purpose is only to kill people. Now you say they are nessisary for self defence? well in England you are not likely to be faced with a gun due to gun control, so training in martial arts or even simple commeon sense can allow you to avoid a lot of dangerous situations.

Here is my indepth analysis of the effectiveness of handguns as self defence in a society where they are obviously freely available.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Now if you were to be allowed handguns then so would the attacker and as they have likely chosen such an avenue in life they would no doubt insure they were proficient in a guns use.

Now as some here have said, a gun in the hands of an untrained person is as much a danger to them as others. Therefore without a nationwide training program in the use of guns the victim would still carry a dissadvantage i.e surprise and not being as skilled in the weapons use. Now you could argue that this would be negated by regular training? well the same amount of training in self defence in a relatively gun free society would afford a similar level of protection surely?

So if we compare like with like:

Trained gunman : Untrained Gun owner
Trained attacker with a knife : Untrained knife owner

Which is better?

Trained Gunman : Trained gunman (surely = large gunfight possibley in public place)
Trained attacker with a knife : Victim who is proficient in self defence

Even with a program in education...

And more realisticly in most instances seeing as surely most americans dont carry guns:

Trained Gunman : Unarmed person
Trained attacker with knife : Unarmed person

Because of this i find handguns to have very little value in self defence as long as guns are controlled.

The simple fact is that a gun is another level above a knife in terms of power, take the following instance:

Gunman : Knifeman

Who would most often win? unless the knifeman has superior training or an advantage it would be the gunman surely.

But then seeing as england has knife controls too what about
Gunman : Unarmed man
with equal training surely the gunman has an advantage? :laugh4:

To be honest i think that most of the desire for handguns or semiautomatics comes from wanting a feeling of power which whilst i understand, i think is the wrong reason to want to have a gun.

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It was forged in the name of freedom!!

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So its a forgery then.

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we hear the familiar refrain 'more gun control!'

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How about hearing "more effective gun control" , after all the guns that end up with criminals all start off as legally manufactured and sold guns .
For examle how does a Dutch drug dealer end up buying a batch of Belgian assault rifles in Switzerland that were sold to the crown prince of Jordan ?
Or how does a wanted American murderer kill a british policeman with a Croatian pistol that was sold to a non-existant company in the Virgin Islands ?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

So its a forgery then.

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:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

That was great!

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

So its a forgery then.

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only if it was a signature:sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Mercenary

I have yet to see a persuasive argument for the gun laws in the US.

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How's about this:
Roughly 2 million plus people in the USA use a gun each year to defend themselves from criminals. Gun control laws show no decrease in crime, and criminals get around such laws just as they did prohibition laws. The main effect is to disarm the law abiding.

While it's nice to strive for the perfect society, we shouldn't forget we've always been in an imperfect one, where self defense is sometimes necessary. In the USA at least, the right to bear arms is the last resort against a tyrannical government, a way to prevent a government from ruling through oppressive force.

Regarding handguns, there are literally hundreds of thousands of people permitted to carry concealed handguns in states across this nation. Every time a state passes a law allowing this, anti-rights people scream about 'wild west bloodbaths'. But in the many states that passed laws allowing concealed carry, not once has this happened. Why? Simple - good people will handle guns in a responsible manner.

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Now if you were to be allowed handguns then so would the attacker and as they have likely chosen such an avenue in life they would no doubt insure they were proficient in a guns use.
Now as some here have said, a gun in the hands of an untrained person is as much a danger to them as others.

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That is completely wrong.

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Therefore without a nationwide training program in the use of guns the victim would still carry a dissadvantage i.e surprise and not being as skilled in the weapons use.

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In the US, we have no such training program, but the most effective way to resist a mugging (ie you are less injured and don't get robbed) is with a weapon. Once again, facts beat assumptions.

Heck, the rest of your analysis is based on false assumptions. For a cure, I recommend a 1000cc injection of reality.

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So its a forgery then.

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If by that you mean made in a forge you'd be right.

CR

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How's about this:
Roughly 2 million plus people in the USA use a gun each year to defend themselves from criminals.

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Same crap again :dizzy2:

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In the USA at least, the right to bear arms is the last resort against a tyrannical government, a way to prevent a government from ruling through oppressive force.

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Bollox , since it was drawn up be people who were opposed to standing armies and wanted a militia , since there is a standing army it is now irrelevant .

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Originally Posted by Ronin

yes I am...and proud of it...

I live in a civilized society with a functioning police force...no need for guns....so why should I be pro-gun?

nice attempt to step around the fact that your own research proved my point about guns being more dangerous than knifes tough.

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And I disargee with everything you are Saying. But We all have our own opnions....


First off, if you want to Bann All guns, How you going to get them off the Street. So Then, when that Gangbanger breaks into your house, with a gun the government failed to get, and you have nothing, What you going to do? Cry and Beg for you life and call 911 :inquisitive: ? Yeah, if you don't get killed....


Plus, how will you take care of Hunting? Population control for Animals is important you know. So if you Anti-Gun, you must be a Animal Right Activisit also? Because No Guns = No Hunting = Animal numbers go up and destroy crops,etc....


Plus No One Likes a Deer running into their car.....




And to Comment you.....

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If you hear noises in your house at night you may think you've been broken into and shoot the intruder dead in a panic. When the intruder turns out to be your husband/wife/son/daughter/father/mother that had got up during the night for whatever reason, it would probably change your ideas about gun ownership and availability somewhat.

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Please Answer this Question:

Why would they be out early in the morning when the Home Invasions proably take place at most of the time? Plus Why would you Shoot the Second you see someone in your house?

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

How's about this:
Roughly 2 million plus people in the USA use a gun each year to defend themselves from criminals. Gun control laws show no decrease in crime, and criminals get around such laws just as they did prohibition laws. The main effect is to disarm the law abiding.CR

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This must make america one of the lowest crime countries in the world then?

USA 1998 1999
02.01 Grand total of recorded crimes 8,922.76 8,517.19
02.02 Total recorded intentional homicide, completed 5.19 4.55
02.04 Total recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm 3.37 2.97
02.06 Total recorded major assaults 355.12 329.63
02.07 Total recorded assaults 841.96 805.21
02.08 Total recorded rapes 33.87 32.05
02.09 Total recorded robberies 162.61 147.36
02.11 Total recorded thefts 2,682.29 2,502.66
02.12 Total recorded automobile theft 451.93 412.70
02.13 Total recorded burglaries 848.25 755.29
02.14 Total recorded frauds 43.49 133.74
02.15 Total recorded embezzlements 6.22 6.22
02.16 Total recorded drug offenses 566.95 560.11

England and Wales 1998 1999 2000
02.01 Grand total of recorded crimes 9,744.98 10,061.11 9,766.73
02.02 Total recorded intentional homicide, completed 1.43 1.45 1.61
02.03 Total recorded intentional homicide, attempted 1.29 1.42 1.34
02.04 Total recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm 0.09 0.12
02.06 Total recorded major assaults 26.71 28.72 29.58
02.07 Total recorded assaults 731.90 833.72 851.60
02.08 Total recorded rapes 14.56 15.96 16.23
02.09 Total recorded robberies 127.48 159.95 179.73
02.11 Total recorded thefts 3,288.09 3,357.60 3,257.52
02.12 Total recorded automobile theft 747.33 711.12 639.92
02.13 Total recorded burglaries 1,818.09 1,721.33 1,579.10
02.14 Total recorded frauds 533.12 635.36 603.14
02.16 Total recorded drug offenses 259.30 231.29 214.30

http://www.unodc.org/pdf/crime/seventh_survey/7sc.pdf

Well in two countries with similar levels of criminality, the US has more Homicide, major assaults, and rape...

I also notice that England and wales has a higher if anything number of thefts, and more fraud (but less drugs) now maybe this is because criminals in America are more scared of a gun owning public?

So at the cost of increased Homicide, major assaults, and rape you can have less thefts and fraud and more drugs?...

So you may have a point if crimes are clearly prevented, i would apreciate the source of your 2 million statistic...

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

While it's nice to strive for the perfect society, we shouldn't forget we've always been in an imperfect one, where self defense is sometimes necessary. In the USA at least, the right to bear arms is the last resort against a tyrannical government, a way to prevent a government from ruling through oppressive force.CR

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Anyone who has been in the army would tell you, a handgun is well outranged by a standard issue soldiers gun, never mind the armoured vehicles and air support they can call upon...

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Regarding handguns, there are literally hundreds of thousands of people permitted to carry concealed handguns in states across this nation. Every time a state passes a law allowing this, anti-rights people scream about 'wild west bloodbaths'. But in the many states that passed laws allowing concealed carry, not once has this happened. Why? Simple - good people will handle guns in a responsible manner.CR

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Have i not just shown in my source in this post that more open access to guns increases homicides? i mean yeah they dont wear cowboy hats so its not a wild west bloodbath...

Yes good people can handel guns ok (which is why my country lets people have rifles or shotguns for which there are legitimate purposes) but bad people wont, can you tell the difference :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

That is completely wrong.


In the US, we have no such training program, but the most effective way to resist a mugging (ie you are less injured and don't get robbed) is with a weapon. Once again, facts beat assumptions.CR

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where are these ''facts'' then?

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Heck, the rest of your analysis is based on false assumptions. For a cure, I recommend a 1000cc injection of reality.CR

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oh a few news stories? indicative of a trend that leaves america with less homicides?

no...

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Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888

First off, if you want to Bann All guns, How you going to get them off the Street. So Then, when that Gangbanger breaks into your house, with a gun the government failed to get, and you have nothing, What you going to do? Cry and Beg for you life and call 911 :inquisitive: ? Yeah, if you don't get killed....

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In England they would be less likely to have acess to a gun so this would be less likely to happen...

yeah that situation would be bad, the same as if a crafty crim attacked your house with a tank, heck thats why we should all have tanks... cus if that happened and i had a tank id be fine...

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Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888

Plus, how will you take care of Hunting? Population control for Animals is important you know. So if you Anti-Gun, you must be a Animal Right Activisit also? Because No Guns = No Hunting = Animal numbers go up and destroy crops,etc....


Plus No One Likes a Deer running into their car.....

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Well there are two different stances, no guns and no handguns and even those who say no guns (i don't) would probably allow farmers or at least rangers them...