The Hundred and Four: Council Thread for the SSbQ Succession Game

Its strange that you don't know me,oh great Hanno,Im the senator from your city of Lepki.I completely agree on Strategic Proposal 1.3 ,I think the proposal strategic 1.1 is great.Strategic proposal 1.16 makes sense too,and i vote on all these proposals.

My dear Hanno i am sorry if my speech to rally our wondrous council disheartened you, well i am sorry but i stand by my word to take down southern sicily and was only pointing out that Rome shall see our might. This may make them think twice about moving into sicily. I have no intentions to start a way with Rome anytime soon and I do hate those the rotten dogs! Also leaving our gold mine in jeopardy is not a very smart move either. I stand with Mago on this one...I have also made many suggestions in regards to our trade and economy the better our lands! So before you say that i want to start a war with Rome find out what i am all about!

*pauses to think*

My fellow councilors i say to you let us take southern sicily, a grand gem of wealth from the backwards greeks, and fortify our holdings in Iberia. From there we can make choices regarding other military moves! But if we do stand by and do nothing i fear we will lose more on our western front then we anticipate! Lets look at every angle my brothers instead of just focus on econ or military...a strong combination of both will prevail!

*sits down with a stern gaze*

Noble ones, allow myself to analyze all propositions I have not made and pardon me for I have made proposals that really need a constitutional approach like they were simple strategic ones, it happens that my anxiety to contribute and my debuting in the political arena have led me to a misjudgment.
However, misjudging is not a mistake of my own; it is a mistake of every one that defends war before our treasury can even breathe from the last one!
If war with Sirakousai is what this senate judges fair, though against it, as a member of the sacred band of Astarte I shall bring death and destruction to those Greeks under the very noble and wise lead of my Great Governor and competent General Hamalcar. Therefore, if this is to be give him the army he needs to make it so! If you support the war against Syrakousai you support the needed army complements and the maintenance of the experienced fleet of Admiral Thero!

Those who support both may be asked to tell us, the fellow senators, from where the money will be raised? How will we pay for this expedition? After we enter Syrakousai, which I know we will if great Hamalcar have the reinforcements he asked, will we put all inhabitants to swords and appropriate of their possessions in order to pay for the war? Making slave alone will not guarantee all necessary money!

Those of you who whishes war against Numidians and their keen, beware… we have seen the sand guerrilla before and those ports grant us nothing that could not be granted by proposal 1.6 (land clear and create ports in several cities), have we become this, thieves as the Greeks? Too lazy to build our riches by labor? Too greed to wait our labor give us fruits?

I can second no war for now… because I am a merchant and a son of a merchant and I still remember that it was trade, not war that raised the republic! I ask patience of you!

Consider that raising the necessary army will take as long as months, shipping them to Sicily will be dangerous (because of threacherous waters and greek fleets) will require time and the Campaing is set to end in a eight seasons time and will see that this war effort will be conduced with a haste that does not match with the grandiosity off the objective.

As far as my experience says, more time will be needed for fighting Syrakousai is Fighting all its allies and war with haste is a defeat we will taste!

I shall fight any war this noble council decides but it is in economical growth the victory resides!

Gentleman, second the economical proposals

*Carthalo rises to speak*

I agree with all proposals thus far merchant-princes and aristocrats of mighty Kart-hadast... especially those concerned with the strengthening of Karali. The African mainland should be well subdued, but I feel Karali will soon become very important. We have no rivals in Iberia, and Sicily we can content for at our leisure, but Roma is uniting Italy and we know they are men who do not value treaties and will never surrender to us when they are strong. After the consolidation of Africa I propose the strengthening of Corsica and Sardinia so that Karali may join Kart-Hadast in her righteous and inevitable future war against Roma. I have no specific proposals, for the great men here have seen to it that the nation's interests are well met. However when our immediate concerns have been relieved, I feel the developement of Karali would be pertinent.

Thank you.

*sits*

Great Carthalo speaks from a land that I know well, a land rich that can became properous since there we can build ports, markets and especially, mines that will finance our evolution!

*stands up forcefully and glares over the assembly*

Am I adressing blubbering fools and Idiots? Given Gisgo's youth I understand that he doesn't realise the danger he's in. At the very steps of Ippone the Numidians wait like hawks poised to strike, Ippone has no walls, no garrison to speak of and I have heard that the fearsome raider Radbarzin and his host of numidian raiders plague the land.

Who knows? Maybe Ippone is the next target for him.

I say we subdue Kirtan and do away with the Numedians, after that you can cast your greedy eyes on the fair city of Syrakusai. I am not swayed by Hamalcars words...I just thinks he wants a bigger house.


And Roma must be destroyed.

*fuming, the exiled statesman that hails from Bocchoris sits down again*

Dont be absurd fool, I agree Ippone needs to construct a form of walls, but Syracusai should be our main military target, we shall avenge the sacred band!

Gentlemen, please!!

This is a respectable house and I fear in-fighting may take the attention away from the issues at hand.

Yes, a victory in our war with Syrakousai would do much to benefit the empire, and Hamalcar's house.

I feel Ippone would do well to build a barricade, but I disagree that our islands are in any real danger. The Romani are have a fairly weak navy, raised from merchant ships and nothing more.

I will amend my previous proposal.

The annexation of Syrakousai need not be completed within 8 seasons, but I do feel it is priority #1 after we secure our frontiers.

Iberia being a close #2 as far as I am concerned.

The precious metals in the mountains of Turdetania will do much to fuel our growth.

Many speak of economic growth, but I feel a quick and violent war against Syrakousai, followed by a period of consolidation will do well to establish us as the economic masters of the western Mediterranean.

*Mago sits down, and looks around the room, waiting for someone to contest him*

These cordial lashes and insults are not warranted!
You will give reason to your resentment of other men or you will not have the proofs to show it.

Now that I have at least, by a Senator, been given the name of the Numidian city the province of Ippone wishes to attack, there may be some progression in Gisgo's requests.
Though I think that some common filth who floated on the tide from Palmyra should not speak so ardently in the presence of superior orators!
Let alone advise us on wars in the homeland, Senator, if you wish to have any influence in the conduct of your island village - be reserved in your complaints.

Gisgo, the area you wish to joyfully crusade now has a title - Kirtan.
This may be an advisable move to our council, but you will elaborate more before any proposal will be made proper!
Tell us all here, how many regiments of levies you would require, tell us from where and with what tactic you will subdue this southern state?

Or will it suffice the that mobile garrison I myself have proposed in the name of Lepki, will be offered to your control?
For whether it does or not, the province of Lepki offers one regiment to the construction of this garrison, and we will levy our strongest men.

I think that either you will choose one of these two things, Gisgo, or you will be satisfied with constructing a palisade around the center of your province.
Your city is inhabited by the working class - so let them prove it!

Carthalo is readily willing to prepare a greater defence in Sardinia, accept his proposal and he will guard Karalis and Corsica with true zeal!
And as for Iberia, I have made a proposal, and requested - advised, that the cities and Iberian provinces should be strengthed in garrison more than any other part of our empire!
The cause I oppose, which is slyly foremost in the heart of Mago, is war with our allies in Iberia, I ask for a stronger fortification, but he asks for conflict - in addition to a war in Sicily!

Before you all fling yourselves into a Roman fight, perhaps one of our Senators, perhaps the underling from Bocchoris, should be sent to study the people that are the target of your most negligent decrees.

Lepki must be the focus of economic growth this year!
All other provinces are maddened with yearnings for war, and yet the east is ready for no such thing.
We will, if necessary, furnish a levy, either for the war in Sicily, or in the service of the garrison I have proposed.
But it is the absence of our encouragement for war, that justifies our wish to be developed as a priority.
And surely the size of our province, the productive nature of Lepki and the loyalty of it's peoples will be rewarding to the Senate's generousity!

As for this, this 'Senator' of great Lepki...

I have seen him take a stand in our city, he lavishes himself in his self-proclaimed title, and does make it well known amongst the few colleagues he does entertain.
Yet his voice withers with the tone of a broken lyre when he attempts to orate in the streets, and the men who prepare my meals are known to greater and more widespread influence in the capital than this man.

However, he is a man of Lepki, it seems, and though I do with great disdain bare the simplicity and hollowness of his speech, he hopefully makes this for the benefit of my province.

it appears that my former statements used wrong language, I was not making official proposals and i appologize if i did use the word proposal(if i was making an official proposal i would more than likely have used the correct grammer needed).
However what i said was supposed to be a sum up of the things surrounding my city of Ippone and it's neighboring towns. there is in fact a large army

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://europabarb.googlepages.com/army.JPG

citying 3 months travel from my city which is now very lightly guarded, now with my 2 unit garrison in ippone i couldt probably kill an army about 4x my size but i do not believe i will be able to do much more without the one day to be born chuck norris fighting as one of my bodyguards. I dont believe our nation would be able to field an army and reach my city before i am stampeded into the ground by the horde of enemy which sits danger close to my gates. This is my situation and you all may do what you want with it. I cannot speak for the other cities proximity to enemy cities but mine is, as i have said before, danger close.

Hanno i would also ask that you not assume things about my thinkings for the expansion of our empire

Quote:

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I do not rush to be in battle with the Ptolemaioi!

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as nowhere have I voiced more than a brainstorming opinon that we should travel to Ptolemaioi and certainly i did not mention such a thing to the council because the idea is as you have put rather absurd at the moment. From your flowery yet sharp criticism of many of the council members i would like to make a proposal to you Proposal hanno.1 please remove the stick from whence it hath hidden itself inside you

(After looking over the constitution a bit more I think it would be good to add the need for a seconding for anyone attempting to be nominated for shophet

Proposal 1.23 - The need for a seconding to any person who seeks to be nominated for Shophet) This has aready been done so i repent of the proposal :P

EDITED for proper old-english grammer and proposal changed

*Calmly stands to speak*

My fellow council members in my rash rant earlier in the night i may have led people think i want all out chaos! I apologize,but here is what i think needs to be done right away...

1. Secure economy to a decent level

2. Plan a quick take over the souther city of sicily...Just the one!

3. Secure our wester iberian front...while continuing to strengthen economy!

May i end with these words..everything in moderation my brothers and we shall prevail!

as for Hanno's request for specifics i cannot say in specific as i have no idea what kind of troops compose the army in Kirtan. I would say that i can take the city with 6 more units(preferably 2 of them being liby-phoenician or libyan spearmen), and if any governors close enough to come would like to share in the glory they are more than welcome to join in.
For the actual movements:
1. As soon as possible send me a spy to move to Kirtan to make sure it is not filled with elite soldiers and to give the opportunity that the gates to the city might be sabotaged.
2. Move the army south leaving only a very light garrison in Ippone.
3. Siege city and take it, considering I dont already have a spy in Kirtan i cant say wether a siege would be feasible with smaller walls(3-5 turns) or whether an assault would be needed. However with at least 2 units of good medium spearmen and myself to spur them on I am confident it can be taken between 10-40% casualties on our side depending on the strength and valour of the enemy troops(which can be easily and quickly found out with a spy).

Hello,great people of Kart-Hadast,I think we should give Iberia priority,not Africa,because of the rich mines there.Iponne should be strenghtened,because I think Numidians are going to attack it soon.Great Hanno,please forgive me for my speeches,I have many projects for people Lepki,and almost no time,i have to always hurry.

Oh, our innocently brutish Gisgo..

If you wish to converse with all of us in the manner of, "Old-English", then it is suggested you should travel to wherever that etiquette hails from.
Does "Khuk Nohris" live in Old English also?
You are not an orator, and you are not a general, you propose, as a governor, nothing worthy of meritable rewards.
Here, you act in the way a hound with a collar would.
Unpredictably, when loosed into whatever territory we wished, you would either attack and kill everything you see in a voracious hunger, or you might simply flee in selfish cowardice.

Either way, your deprivation of intelligent advice means that we must carefully supervise every decision you make and either scold or praise you for your actions in the manner of training a pup.

Let this be a visible fact that the words of this Ippone canine have no foundation, and barely do they have understable sense.

Bomilkar, you are efficient and brief in these proposals, I will comment on them, but please if you become more serious or have more detail to add to their development, write them down in accordance with regulation.

We need a method of securing our economic ability, and Lepki, unthreatened, unprovoked and without great debt, can be a major factor in the development of our economy.

Syrakusai, it is a agreed by all, is the major city of Sicilia Graecus, and Hamilcar is willing to hazard a siege of this place.
We are all confident in his abilites, yet I think he needs no levies from Africa until he has taken Syrakousai.
I do not think my confidence in this is unfounded, if Hamilcar is not self-professed.

Then it is obvious here, that our western empire needs to be strengthened in fortification, the centre of our empire needs be the focus of conquest, and the eastern empire needs to be the foremost provider of the economy.

Is this last piece not desirable for it's own sake?

*Mago stands to take his place at the podium*

I agree with the wise Governors and Senators assembled here.

I think our best course of action is as follows:

1. Secure whatever cities the senate deems at risk

2. Improve our economy, provinces in N.Africa should take full priority for building projects.

3. Syrakousai must fall. It is essential to our control of the western mediterranean.

Whatever proposals support this general plan, I will support in kind, and those which do not, will not recieve my 2 votes.

*looks rebuked*


Great Hanno, Govenors and fellow councilmen

Forgive me the harsh word I spoke earlier, but sometimes harsh words are needed to draw attention to the task at hand.

Even though I [reside in Bocchoris it is in my interest and all our interest that we think of the need of the empire before personal glory and riches. Ippone stands poorly defended, without fortification and I feel the needs of that city must be put to the forefront. What could I ask for the citizens of Bocchoris? Sun? Bah!

I think we should send most of our standing armies that laze about in the sun around Karth-Hadast and let them stick the pointy end of their spear into something. Of course I second that we should send a spy first to enlighten us about Kirta's troop strength and their strenght of fortification.

It is in my opinion that we should contend ourselves with strengthening defenses and building up economy for the next shophets term, and adding Kirta to our prospering empire, then we can start thinking about the big fish, Syrakusai.

War with the Romani is unevitable, it is only matter of time. But I don't mean that we start wars in our haste to glory

But it is unevitable that Roma must be destroyed

Kirta is a threat with which I was somewhat unaware....I apologize for my inattentiveness, as matters in Kart-Hadast keep me occupied.

I do believe I have yet to hear from any senators from my great city. Iberia seems severely underrepresented as well. Where is the senator from Gader? The Governor and Senators of Mastia also have yet to make an appearance before us....do they not care for their lands?

With them not present, how are we expected to contend with the force of Turdetanians which sit on our border?

This council will remain in session for another 24 hours. I fear Iberia may fall by the way-side due to lack of senatorial participation.

If they do not represent themselves we may need to take matters into our own hands. As it seems much has been said already by those who do not represent those lands. I have also taken interest in Ippone's situation and i believe that with the earlier proposal for a light defense force in northern africa we could protect it easy. Also we could take care of that threat first then move to sicily. I think both options are very possible so we could attack one or the other first. This of course is just my opinion but beyond that i think is pushing our military to much with our unstable economy. I also agree with Mago's proposal to get north african provinces building up. Which leads me to Lepki, with it being out of the way of any major conflict we should strongly consider boosting its economic output, this would be very helpful.

Your own corrupted arguments in favour of the Iberian province is sufficient as a representative of our interests in the West, Mago.

But I would have that province furnished with garrisons, however, not an army. It is not necessary, and since it would be idle if levied, such a force could be used carelessly.. or even maliciously, by those who preside in government.

My own Eastern Senator, you are forgiven!
(As you and I will ensure Lepki is surrounded with greater power than Kart-Hadast itself!)
Speak as shortly and abruptly as you wish, but speak clearly, that you may not be heard with the same woefully tired ears that hear the Moor-like throttles of Gisgo.
And think wisely of our province!

Mago, you are the only governor of Africa here who, though barbarous in affections and desires, are capable in preparation.
So you will of course, exert yourself to help me in organising this difficulty we face in the western province of Ippone.
For we have not only an unpredictable enemy but an unpredictable governor, who is, due to his damp nature, prone to thoughtless decisions.

My questions in attempting to discern whether we will send a furnished garrison or a small force, and in what number, to aid Ippone are not unreasonable, we would be best to join with our members of the capital in this and decide, with our influence, as to the exact counteractions will be enforced here.
You know what I have asked on this, so Mago, I will you to take it further in your own name.

Most noble, and most gracious Bomilkar!
You stand at the height of virtuosity, and your magnanimity is both wisely conducted and unknown to other, lesser, simplistic men!

Bomilkar, you are truthful in speaking of the economic potential that Lepki holds, and it does beg and plea to be given permission by the state to develop itself.
For we need no protection, though other provinces witness feuds with their neighbours, we do enjoy friendships with all ours!

Thank you, exclaimed and exalted governor, and do pardon that I told of Mago to be the only capable governor of Africa.
Adrumeto is contented beyond any north of Lepki, and her walls do not shield the radiance of happiness and beauty that her citizens flourish within!

Thank you my brother, i do see the positive for providing u with getting more wealth to put into our mighty nation. As for my own city when our taxes are raised the people are still very happy and i am looking to garnish about 500 some mani a month to our glorious treasury. So at this time i can see the push for our other provinces to grow in economical terms. But i do ask of you on my last statement, what do you think is a good solution to Ippone or souther sicily which i do support!

Bomilkar, I think it a waste of the resources we both procure if we were to provide two seperate field armies, we would do this only in obedience to Gisgo's pitied dreams.
I made a proposal on creating a medium force of light foot supported by a minimum number of light horse.
To serve as a garrison of Africa - this can be recruited and upgraded over the progress over our finance!
Generously I did offer the command of this garrison to our scattered Gisgo, who did ignore my question, and proceeded instead with insults and gibbered ramblings.

So, to the ignorance of his demands, I think we should provide this defence, and send it immediately to Ippone.
I do not think we should attack Kirtan unless provoked, but let us array our defence in front of this city that they may realise our readiness.

And I have spoken many times on how Sicilia Graecus may be rested from those who fortify Syrakousai.
Hamilcar is well capable, and he has a force equally exploitable for this task.
I challenge him to take Syrakousai immediately, and then, if he may do this, Lepki will send levies and no doubt all of Africa will do the same in appreciation.

With these levies, he may defend Syrakousai and test the temperance of Messana.

These are the only necessary things to be said on the subject you gave me, Bomilkar.

Governors, senators, members of our distinguished councill.
I fear we are on the path to becoming a decadent people. Many here speak of the Numidians as if they were animals who deserve nothing more then the sharp end of a spear. May I remind you, o great leaders of our people, that the numidians are men, just like any of us. Unfortunately for them, they are opressed men. I view this not as a war against the people of Numidia, but as the liberation of Numidia. The war to be is not against the people, but against the evil rulers that lead them. By controlling the area west of our core cities, we would not only save the money we would need to bolster their defenses by constructing walls, but we would also gain valuable allies and partners in trade. Movement along the coast can be hastened by a cooperation between the fleet and the army, and I feel that the young governor of Ippone is just the right man to take our glorious army as far as the pillars of Hercules or even beyond. Not for glory and conquest, but for liberty and trade. Any lands we take in north africa should be granted immediate independence.
I also feel that our offensive towards Kirtan should not be conducted in a too speedy manner. Instead, we should lay siege to their city and await the raiders that have been spotted nearby to come to their assistance. Thus we kill 3 birds with one stone. We not only defeat 2 enemy armies, but we also take the city without assaulting it's defenses. This of course works if our full force is channeled in this direction.

strategic proposal 1.24
Besiege Kirtan with a large force and await counterattack by the mobile army stationed nearby, and then destroy both in open combat

May I also remind you that it is unwise to go to war against the greeks. I fear that by doing so, we will gain the hatred of all greeks across to world. I also fear that the walls of Siracuse and it's large standing army would grind our army who's more used to open-field battles into dust. I speak this not because of the greek blood that runs trough my families veins, nor because of my of greek friends and partners across the area to the north of Alalia, but because it is the truth. I have seen the Romani, and I know what they are capable of. An alliance with as many greeks as possible is our best chance of defeating them once their inevitable attack against us commences.

What would all the other greek settlements east and north of Siracuse think of us, once we put that wonderfull city to the sword ? Will they not jump into the lap of the Romani to protect themselves from us ?
I have been, as you see, most honest with you, and I once again urge you not to attack Siracuse.

My advisors have also informed me about the debate that has been raging within the councill and about certain issues that have been adressed.

The romani are in no position to launch a naval invasion of my island, this I know well, therefore strengthening or even keeping our garrison here could be seen as foolish at best. This I guarantee with my life.

I have also been informed of members of the councill agreeing to my proposals of building up Alalia as a forward base, yet saying it is not a priority. May I remind these distinguished members that this process cannot take place over-night. It requires many years. As war with the romani is inevitable, failing to build up Alalia in time would only result in a partial or even total defeat for our people, especially if we had already antagonised every greek south of SPQR's borders.

I also fear that the representatives of Lepki have their own personal agenda in mind and not the interest of our people by so agressively trying to dominate the councill. May I ask you, o great governor of Lepki, why do you oppose the liberation of the people of Numidia ? Is it not so, that your cities own influence may grow ?

As for Iberia, I personally think that the tribes there are not yet united. Diplomacy, gold, spies and assasins could buy us time in the area. Time for the army wich would liberate Numidia to arrive in Iberia once it has completed it's task. Once it is there, justice will be enforced, those who have done wrong would pay, those who have done right would benefit.

And think not that by sending the army so far west our own land would be threatend ! Becasue by the time the romani are in a position to challange us, we would have the means to rasie a new, modern, preferably a combined carthaginian-greek army to challenge them as well as have the base in my beautifull island ready to strike even against the very gates of Roma. None of these are however possible without a strong economy and a strong naval trade.
The times I speak of may be far into the future, but not preparing ourselves for it could only lead to disaster and to the blood of thousands of our nations best sons spilled across some field not even one of our poorest peasant would die over today ! Every councill member should think of this whenever they propose some foolhardy action !!

*Mago stands to address the council yet again*

Fellow council-members, while Hanno is eloquent in speech, the fact of the matter is that he is overlord of lands which match nearly the whole of the rest of the empire. The province in which Hanno resides is by far the largest, therefore their is some merit to his proposals.

That being said, the lands surrounding Lepki aren't as fertile as the rest of the empire, and much of the state is a barren wasteland. We have little to gain from expending too many resources in this region, save perhaps a fort at our eastern border, to stall any Ptolemaic incursions. I'll leave the decision to put forth that proposal to Hanno himself, as the fort's garrison will undoubtedly come from Lepki itself.

Now that I've been made aware of the dire straits that Ippone finds itself in, I must insist that we fortify the area near Ippone with a small field army. The citizen militia currently attached to the small field army stationed near Atiqa should be sent to the city itself, and the divisions currently stationed there will be sent to reinforce the field army. I will personally guarantee two of Kart-Hadast's divisions of Iberian Skirmisher Cavalry as well. This force will be placed under Gisgo, Governor of Ippone, to defend against any incursions.

The other two Iberian Skirmisher Cavalry, and a few other divisions (mostly from Adrumeto, granted the kind governor agrees) will be sent ot Hamalcar in Sicilia.

I have not expressed this in proposal form, because I will use it as a general guideline for what I would like to do in my reign as Shophet, if I have my esteemed coleagues votes. Of course, all building and recruitment proposals approved by the council will be my first priority.

Punic Senator of Alalia, your arguments against the Senate are as flailing and insignificant as your province.
You are ignorant, though I have yet stood in front of you here and proclaimed it, that I am in full support for the military and communal development of both Sardinia and Corsica.
Yet you oppose me, and further, you accuse me!

Should you continue to thrust and stab blindly at the general gathering here, I will renounce my support of your province!
Carthalo has been deserving of my sympathies, and you shall follow his example if you expect the compassion of Lepki also.

The people of Numidia are shallow - they have no true souls!
If they did not have the intelligence to swiftly build palisades and yards, their own cattle rule supremely in terms of organisation!
They will not conduct any attack against us, I am confident, and it is a fine thing that you agree Ippone should be defended, and not at the spearhead of an assault.

I will say nothing of, and ignore what the Corsican Senator has said on the object of Syrakousai - he is outvoted, overcome and underpowered in his comments.
Hamilcar is to bring Sicilia Graecus into our empire's control.
It is agreed by all who have a noble sense.

Mago, if you would allow for coastal and docking development in Lepki, and ensure this is pursued in construction for two years, I will submit two levies of foot from my province.
In addition to this, to show my city's appreciation, I will consent to high taxes, and you will have my vote as Shophet, that you may be constant with what I have asked.

My own barren wasteland has not only attracted a great population to the coast, which begs for trade and wealth to be absorbed into our empire through the city, but the wasteland itself creates coarse, hardened folk.
These men inhabit the outlying regions of Lepki, and will be enthusiatically levied from the province in order to defend Africa.
They will travel to Ippone and further, for a small cost to our nation.

Review these things within yourself Mago, decide whilst others are speaking, and do advise me whether to support you or not in the election.

Govenors and fellow councilmen

I second Senators Ag3nt_Magnum proposal 1.24 of besieging Kirta, the people of Numida should be brought under our control with extreme prejudice and therefore guarantee the safety of Ippone and gaining us lands and levies.

After that we can think of Syrakusai. The candidate for shophet that is in agreeance with this strategic proposal shall have my vote.

Greetings.

I vote we should take Iberia first.

Syrakousai will be hard to take. This is a fact. Their defenders not only have large stone walls, but also are of strong heart and will not give up easily. To take Syrakousai will require a large amout of men, which I feel would be better used in other places.

In addition, Greece will not like our aggression towards their allies. They may decide to cut off trade links to us, and we are a nation built upon trade. Without the trade money, we will be hard pressed to requisition additional troops, and to fund our expansive city projects.

Iberia is a land of opportunity. It is filled with squabbling tribes, each of which fight each other constantly. In addition, there is a new threat: the Lusotanni. If we give these people a chance to build up, our decision may prove to be costly later.

However, this is just my two shekels worth. If you decide to attack Syrakousai, then I will fully support it. However, do not act rashly; we need to keep the money flowing in.

Then with a meek sentence you do damn the Iberian Peninsula to be swiftly brought under control.
Let us lend our strength, and our future, to this Senator, and where would it lead Carthage?

He would have us ignore Sicily, and considers the conquest of an entire country of various people and tribes an easier task that the acquisiton of one city-state!
This man is late to counsel his advice, procures it with no grounds and alone censures the one motion of our Senate that we all do agree upon.
While he gives attention to no other matter in our empire.

And yet, Mago, he is one of your Senators who resides here in Kart-Hadast - and has no affection for his own capital!

Senator of of our Capital, you have beneath you an influential seat, and many others would claim it.
Perhaps your words should be worth more than two shekels if you want to keep this position, and not find yourself on Palmyra, or even worse, within Ippone.

*pezhetairoi stands to speak*

Honoured governors and senators of the City, if I may speak, please, listen to what I have to say, for I am sure they are not lacking in consideration.

*nods to Hanno*

What mean you, governor Hanno, is Ippone a very bad place to be? You make it sound as if my hometown is a midden-heap for unwanted Tsorim senators. What of your city, then, Ba'al-forsaken as it is, out in the middle of nowhere?

You speak well, honoured Hanno. For a man of a military background--see, you came this morning to the Council in armour, and still have it just outside the door!--you speak well indeed, but harsh! Harsh indeed are your words! Will you not moderate them, and stop wetting our floor with your spittle as you bite off your words in the military manner?

It is true that the Syrakousioi are but one citystate, but they are a united citystate. Need I remind the Council seated here of what happened when the Persians attacked Athens the first time? Need I remind you of the result of Marathon? And that was only one citystate. In the second war to all intents and purposes it was only two citystates against more than double the odds, and still again they prevailed. Have our defeats at the hands of the united Syrakousians taught us nothing? To encompass their defeat would require strength and unity and preparation to overwhelm even their unity. It would not do us well now, in this weak state, to contemplate attacking strong Syrakousiai again. Let us give their walls time to crack a little more from age and weeds between the stone blocks before we attack.

Well I am aware of the defeats and insults forced, nay, inflicted upon us, by the Syrakousioi, snug in their big city of stone walls and strong men with stout spears. My own ancestors fought against them, and more than one has met his death on a Syrakousian spearpoint, as he tore out his killer's throat or heart with spear or sword and a battlecry on his lips. Well I know the price we have paid!

But we have waited so long, what are a few seasons more? Our revenge against them shall be all the swifter and the more frightening then, coming as it does out of the blue, a bolt out of the clear sky, as final as if it had been thrown by their Zeus.

More important it is, I say, that we should take the south of Hispania, where we know are many rich mines of gold and silver. Money is the key to warring without worry, and money we do not now have. Where better than Hispania, to get the treasures we need to hire men and hammer out weapons of war? How shall we support our mighty war elephants' diets without the gold to buy their fodder? The Turdetani marauding near Gader will need dealing with; it is clear a powerful army will be needed to deal with them. Why let this army go to waste thereafter, and never use it more? Better we should turn it against the divided tribes of Hispania, carve ourselves a rich land beholden to the Shophet and the Council, and pacify it, that we may better use its resources on other fronts!

Hence, I vote that we should concentrate our efforts in Hispania, building up a force there capable of dealing with the Turdetani, then taking the offensive against the Turdetani and other rebellious peoples north of our coastal strip!

But there must be a limit, and I move that any conquest we make go no further north than the towns of Baikor and Arse, lest we bite off more than we can swallow at one go. Also, we must on no circumstances allow our armies to draw near our border with the Lusotana, our allies, or their forces, for they are quick to anger and a force to be reckoned with, if we had to fight them on what is their home ground.

After getting a steady influx of precious metal from Spain, then shall we pound the proud Syrakousian walls down, raze it to the ground, and enslave its people! Only then, with our strength in money, shall we be able to show them what it means to be faced by overwhelming odds.

Hence, I am for proposal 1.21, and of necessity I must be against 1.20. If the Syrakousians do not bother us, I say we do not bother them also until our foundations are secure, and we have gotten a firm financial stance from which to throw a knockout punch.

And yet, let it not be said that I am from Ippone and care not for my own city. I can see the desert stretching to the south from the roof of my mansion in the city, and fear for the day when the fearsome Numidians, with their cavalry of the unpronounceable name and their men in rags who rain death with their javelins, will come pouring across those rocks at my beloved city.

I, too, most definitely want to see my city walled, even if it is only with wood, to permit it to endure somewhat until help comes against the Numidians. But I am not for war with the Numidians. If death is to be sought, let them seek it on our soil, and not us on theirs. Their kingdom is large but not as prosperous as Hispania can be to us. They can wait. Let us have walls, and let us build more, and the day will come when governor Hanno will himself wish he was of Ippone, fair city that it is and will be! Hence my vote, when the time comes, will be against proposal 1.23.

If Numidia attacks, we can safely rely on our fleet, which rules the seas, to bring some battalions from Spain or Sicily to fight a quick slashing campaign against the Numidians, then return to their theatres. But for that we need walls! Hence I vote for proposal 1.15.

Ippone, speaking from my intimate knowledge of my city, is not yet ready to become a base for the taking of Mauretania, as it must become if Mauretania eventually becomes a target. As the honoured Council will have noticed, we do not even have a half-decent wall, much less say barracks and stables, or the population to support and serve an army operating still further away to the west! Mauretania must wait, and anyhow, it is more trouble than it is worth. Fertile, but it has not very much else to offer in terms of profit, which must be our priority here. Conquest for conquest's sake can come later. I reject 1.14, for it is impractical in the face of all the other threats facing us.

*senator Magnum stands to speak*

Governor Hanno, first I would like to thank you for supporting my proposal regarding future development of my island. This shows that your judgement can at times be rational. However, I disagree with your attitude towards the senate. How dare you directly insult honorable councill members, the best men our nation has to offer ? And how dare you insult cities containing thousands of our nations citizens, such as Ippone ? And how dare you condition military assistance given to our core army ? How dare you ask for economic benefits in return for military support ? This could even be considered treasonos ! May I remind you that Lepki's current garrison is part of our nations army, and not your own personal bodyguard, to do with as you please !
I do not say that your requests are not rational, but the manner with wich you hold the councill at ransom is unacceptable !

Had how dare you accuse me of speaking against the councill ? As I have shown, it is you who has done such things, trying to mask it beneath fine words adressed to Mago, whom I also support, yet not as vocaly as you, and insults to everyone else. I will not base my career on kind words adressed to men of power, but always on speaking the truth. As my father before me, I will defend the councill to my dying breath and respect it's decisions, no matter what I personally think of them.

I therefor demand an apologie on your behalf.

I also think the senator of Ippone has mistaken proposal 1.15 with 1.14. As time does not allow it, I will refrain from any other comments, as I have urgent matters to attend to.