just to react to some replies
I am wrong picturing a 9-12m long pike as not being a straight pole ?
I mean, it's got to be thick enough to resist a trust, but also thin enough to be held in hands, so it's got to bend, at least a little.
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just to react to some replies
I am wrong picturing a 9-12m long pike as not being a straight pole ?
I mean, it's got to be thick enough to resist a trust, but also thin enough to be held in hands, so it's got to bend, at least a little.
BTW, I didn't mean to hijack this thread....the conversation just sort of moved in this direction.
Sorry, gurakshun. :sad:
I didn't just mean spearmen/pikemen got pushed out of the way in a charge, which i can understand to an extent but i also meant after the charge, when they have slowed to a crawl and are simply slogging it out. Now everyone knows that once cavalry stops after a charge, it becomes very vulnerable and ineffective when facing well ordered infantry since they lose all the advantages cavalry bring to a battle.
I'd also like to make a point that pole arms aren't especially thin and were very effective for centuries for a good reason, no one charges head long into a wall of pikes (which come in many shapes and sizes btw, not just sharp points) and this is especially true for horses, trained or not. Now since we're talking about the EB time period and not medieval period we don't really have to worry about knights wearing heavy plate armor on top of horses (except kataphracts but they still weren't invisible) so we can worry more about cavalry used mostly for attacking/harassing flanks and chasing down fleeing troops and not proto-tanks from medieval France.
Now back to my original point, there may be a lot of force behind a cavalry charge and it is damned scary to face down, of this i have no doubt BUT even the heaviest of cavalry charging into a prepared infantry line will not last long, they will inflict casualties on the infantry (that is a no brainer) but as soon as they stop they are gonna be killed, either by having their horse killed first and then mobbed when they fall or by getting a 9ft spear in the gut.
ANYWAY.... i don't believe i've ever heard of a phalanx being used in that way, mainly (as the OP pointed out) the flanks are overly exposed and generally would work better facing forward in a straight line. IRL it was a lot harder to cross a bridge that is so closely guarded by an army for a lot of reasons that can't be represented in the game.
If it's a sarissa phalanx, then the first row usually put the but into the ground to brace for a charge. Not to mention the horse is not going to go through the 5+ spear points poking at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharnakes
There's reasons pike formations werent charge by even the heaviest of cavalry in any period from the front. A horse, a man, an anything will not willingly skewer itself on 5 pikes just so the person behind can get through. Keep in mind "push of pike" was called that, not becuase the spear could push. But becuase people would move back to avoid those spears.
A horse hit in the chest or in the shank, is not going to push forward. It's most likely going to stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bootsiuv
The front rank of a phalanx is usually smashed in any charge. It might sound like a horrible way to die, but most confrontations between hoplite armies have men dieing standing up. Good reasons why the veterans were located in the back of the phalanx to push the others forward...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bootsiuv
There's even acounts of shieldwall clashes having results like that. In the battle of hastings, Williams the Conquers cavalry charged the shield wall, again and again. Didnt dent it, yes the front rank were smashed, and a lot of mend died. But the cavalry were holy in capable of breaking the braced position until they finally broke rank and counter charged.
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Originally Posted by BigTex
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What?!
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Originally Posted by Pharnakes
Could you expand that question please? :dizzy2:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Internet
Could you eplain this please?:laugh4:
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Originally Posted by Pharnakes
:laugh4: It's a saying, it means i like his way of thinking. Subscribing to a newsletter means you want to hear more about what you've just heard/seen.
Basically, i agree with him and like his way of thinking. :beam:
Out of my head, and not an extensive research.
-Gaugamela
-Courtrai
-Bannockburn
-Pharsalus
-Falkirk
They all feature cavalry charge against pikes. And defeats.
Now, some were succesfull:
-Mons-en-Pévèle
-Cassel
But the best:
-Morgarten
-Morat
Feature pike charge AGAINST cavalry. And victories! :dizzy2:
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Originally Posted by BigTex
ever have someone run at you, trip and then fall on you? ever had a fat guy pass out on top of you?
the horse sure isn't going to "push" anymore, but there is still a hell of a lot of momentum coming at you. and in this case, the momentum isn't square against the ground, it's about 6 feet high.
2 horses colliding.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=VuaSRbRqV78
horse falls. you're saying it wouldn't take 3 people down with it?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=5-8z5U-o4O4
here's a showjump horse, and yea, it's just a plastic collapsable wall, but now you've got a half ton animal with flailing hooves on you.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=zfVS6nmZWho
remember, this is 1000+ lbs at 10-20 mph. it doesn't matter if he is killed on the first microsecond of impact. there's still 1000+lbs of dead weight moving forward (and down) at 10-20mph.
the other thing discussed is just the mass at the front.
you've got a dozen dead guys, and a dozen dead horses and riders.
that's quite the pile of bodies. that would make it pretty hard to move forward/continuous charge,and i've often wondered how this works. moving over this must be pretty tough.
and what about guys that are still alive but buried/dying? does someone follow around behind the phalanx wall slitting all their throats?
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Originally Posted by dominique
Indeed, but there are a couple of battles off hand i wouldn't include in those lists and also probably not the medieval ones because not only are they out of our time period but also a lot more heavily armed than those you'd find in EB.
Your point is still valid though and i enjoyed reading up on some of the battles i was not familiar or well versed in. :beam:
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Originally Posted by runes
There is no doubt that it won't make a mess but it is highly doubtful that the horses would do it in the first place and that they would be going full gallop into the pikes too. The role of cavalry is to attack/harrass the flanks and doesn't do when they stop to slug it out, as shown at Pharsalus, although my example is admittedly, slightly extreme. There are many accounts of battles becomign tougher as the phalanx had to move over the bodies of dead/dying enemies and even their own men and behind the phalanx there generally was other units (skirmishers who have retired or any reserve forces kept back) who would be more than happy to keep their rear secure by killing any survivors.
Then there goes the soldier in the front rank. Horrible way to die, crushed between horse and the man behind. But it is a melee and thats what happens. Still doesnt break the phalanx. Also most warhourses were tuaght to stop within one body length. Depending on ground conditions a wounded horse wouldnt hit like a train.Quote:
Originally Posted by runes
As for your second point. Your onto something there. After the first charge, and repulse. The second and succesive charges become harder and harder. The battle of waterloo is a good example of what happens to cavalry who try to charge and recharge without allowing bodies to be cleared. In a clash against infantry, the bodies would be walked over, and killed with the back spike if still alive. Or just walked over and left to slowly bleed out screaming, and moaning.
Anyways, cavalry in this era werent used like this in the first place. The cavalry's primary goal was to kill the other cavalry, protect the lines flanks. Then to charge the enemies flanks, chase routers or perform a hammer into anvil full envelope.
i don't think there's any sense in arguing if it did happen, because the information can easily be gathered from existing data.
we're arguing what happens if it does.
especially for TW where the hypothetical is allowed to exist.
some people apparently don't feel that TW properly reflects that actual phsyics present in a head on cav-phalanx charge- which is what this thread is about.
some here say that cavalry is too effective in making head on charges against phalanx.
i don't personally see that in the game (i don't generally use phalanx infantry) so i don't know if the game reflects what we have discussed (i.e. even the heaviest cav being repulsed)
i HAVE noticed that most of my cavalry charges really suck. even charges straight to the rear. good quality cavalry at the back of a line, say skirmishers. sometimes it will break them quickly, but other times, the attack does little damage at all and i have definitely lost a few good generals by charging into skirmishers or other non-cavalry-busting units....
A very good point actually, save Kataphraktoi, which weren't exactly prevalent in any great numbers as far as I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTex
I guess it sort of renders the entire argument moot, but I still think a frontal cataphract charge would disrupt a phalanx, if not break it up completely.
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Originally Posted by Bootsiuv
which is what, i think, we should be discussing, because TW allows us to do this
they may have that in Empire: Total War :study:Quote:
Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
I personally feel a frontal cavalry charge on any prepared heavy infatry would be suicidal, hence the reason it was never the "proper" or "normal" (read: sane) thing to do, especially in the Eb time frame.
As for the game, my point was that cavarly seem to be able to go toe to toe with the infantry units for a lot longer (and with a lot more success) than they should do. Not to compare mods here but as an example, in RTR if you just charged your guys in and left them there any longer than 10 seconds, they'd be butchered and that goes for kataphracts too, the heaviest of the heavy. In my opinion the case should always be that the cavalry is only useful when it remains mobile, if it stops to do battle with the infantry it is going to be quickly cut down because they'll be swamped and cut down. There are several times in EB's time frame hat i can remember off the top of my head where infantry have gotten the best of cavalry because they have been caught standing idle, swamped after their charge or lost because their mobility has been lost and even more occassions where a skirmish has been lost because the men they were attacking had formed up and were able to repel their charges.
IMO cavalry should only be used as a supporting role and in the case of the hammer and anvil only used to finish off wavering troops from the rear/flanks. They should never be able to push through a prepared formation of infantry.
Time for bed now i think. :yes:
Never tried this before, I find it dificult to really put CA's Pahalanxes into such formations, especially if it comes necessary to move them in the battle field
Wow a lot of replies since I last checked, nice thread....
@ Sarkiss & Bootsiuv, you're right I didn't factor in the force put on the chaps behind the pikes, I'm sure most of them had bloody sore arms after a few hours fighting! :laugh4:
I'm not sure what the actually density of Phalanx units IRL is, but something to remember is that horses are usually quite big, and the pikes tend to be relatively close together, therefore, you need to consider that its not going to be horse vs one pike a lot of the time, with a dense enough formation and the correct angles I imagine a horse would be getting poked at from more than one place. If you know you're physics you'll know that a greater total contact point means the force is distributed over a wider area, hence less pressure on individual pikes and their users.
I have no idea whether or not this would make a significant difference, half a ton or so (sorry I can't do lbs! :laugh4:) of horse going high speed is still going to be a massive force even if it is divided up amongst a few seperate points, just thought I'd point it out as everyone seems to be looking at the individidual aspects of a pike vs a horse
And to (sorta) get back on topic, no I don't think its an exploit, any commander of the time in the right circumstances, and with the correct knowledge/skill would probably do something simmilar imho (although whether they actually did use "V" formations as opposed to just holding a chokepoint with a wall of spears, I dont know).
Cheers!
A wall of spears at a choke point means that the flanks aren't exposed and that there is no one weak area but with the V formation the flanks are more exposed and there are weak areas IRL.
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Originally Posted by The Internet
So, this is what seems to be the "best" group consensus.
1) Cavalry needs to be extremely vulnerable once engaged.
2) Cavalry needs to have little, if any penetration versus phalanx/heavy spear on frontal assaults
^ these all seem to add up to nerfing cavalry
so, remembering where/how cavalry was good/effective, we must also maintain that
3) cavalry needs to keep (or improve? i've never done much testing) their charge bonus (i find the hit to morale quite noticeable and can rout even before engaging, unlike in vanilla)
however, here's the part i am still a bit unsure about:
if a charge to the front is innefective (momentum distributed along front line with many dense points, supported by back rows (question, does unit mass increase/decreas with depth?)
then should it be considerably more effective when charging infantry at the back? i would assume so. the units at the back would (likely i assume) turn around to face the charge- this would detract from unit cohesion/density (is this modeled?)
i don't care if you're the finest pike in all the land, if you get hit from behind with cavalry (without turning and mounting a proper defensive front) you are going to get obliterated...
next:
cavalry vs front assaults of less than elite spear/non spear units.
again, since i haven't done much testing, i don't know that status of this in game.
let's return to the frontal assault:
cavalry make a charge head on towards some (basic or conscript) spearmen, or regular line infantry (swordsmen)
how does the charge fare?
As horse vs heavy inf goes, at around cataphract level at the latest the cavalry could usually be used to simply push into and grind down an infantry formation by the virtue of superior mass and armour; the Byzantine "blunt wedge" tactic was apparently designed specifically for this approach.
'Course, they never had to deal with pikes and AFAIK usually walked or at most trotted into the attack - the point was to roll over the infantry, not shatter them with the shock of the charge.
Even far lighter horse could also be very lethal in a frontal charge against even heavy spearmen if they could gain enough of a psychological superiority that the infantry line dithered and therefore created an opening for the cavalry to plunge into - if horse could break into the ranks of infantry in this fashion they were usually able to push deeper (laying about them with their wepaons of course) with their mates piling into the breach after them, which tended to be a Very Bad Thing for the infantry concerned as AFAIK it usually led to psychological collapse right fast.
Pikemen, however, were frontally AFAIK pretty much a no-go for anything short of plate-clad Late Medieval gendarmes, where both he man and the horse were all but invulnerably armoured in solid steel. I understand French gendarmes were in fact able to penetrate and downright ride through Swiss pike squares in some battles - it just didn't have much effect, as the infantry didn't lose heart and simply closed the ranks over the casualties.
Anything else just doesn't have the survivability to hit the wall of braced pikes and get through alive. The "international standard" for pike set to receive horse in the "pike and shot" period at least was the front ranks crouching, with pike-butts firmly planted in the ground and one foot on top of it for good measure, and the pike-tipe at the level of the horses' chest. The successive ranks held theirs level at different heights, IIRC mainly shoulder- and waist-height. Unless distrupted by missile fire or failure of morale, this "hedge" of pikes was practically inviolable to any cavalry short of the very heaviest plate-clad type.
As working simple solutions tend to be ones pretty much everyone who uses the same techniques and tools develops through empirical experience and basic hit-and-miss experimentation, I would be very surprised if the same basic "pike-hedge" system for seeing off cavalry did not develop among Hellenistic pikemen quite early on - and period cataphracts and their horses frankly didn't have enough armour to survive a head-on clash with set pikes, that much I'm certain of. Scale and lamellar, good armour as they generally are otherwise, just don't cut it for that purpose.
nice reply man.
so then for anyone who has done any testing (i'm playing rome right now nad don't use a ton of cav)
how does cavalry fare against non phalanx/heavy spear units in a frontal charge?
is it fair to say they SHOULD be able to penetrate fairly deeply into a line of een well trained swordsmen?
By my somewhat limited experience on the topic they do. Then again, the heavy types tend to push lighter spearmen around a lot too. Anyway, as non-spear infantry lacks the anti-cavalry bonus from the "light_spear" attribute and its limited "charge reflection" effect they by rights should have a comparatively harder time taking a cavalry charge. 'Course many "sword" infantry are pretty tough customers, and often enough have nasty AP weapons to boot, so what happens after the charge really depends more on the specific units involved.
so it seems everything is wrapped up in a neat little package then.
most of this thread is nonsense, because horses will NOT charge into a wall of spears!
but, that's the thing about tw.
you can.
it's all well and good what can/did happen.
a unit of conscript skirmishers would probably never charge headlong into elite cohors.
the TW engine allows this to happen. if everything were binded by "what actually happened" then we wouldn't have a game or simulation. we'd just have a bunch of computer generated models fighting each other according, explicity, to historical accounts.
Normally, they flatly refuse to charge a wall of men anyway spear or no. Them's the breaks with using what are basically giant rabbits as war mounts. But you don't apparently need much of a gap or disturbance in that (for the animal) solid obstacle for it to be willing to try entering.
we are graced with the ability to "right click, right click, right click GODDAMMIT RIGHT CLICK"