Makedones and Greeks is the same as Spartans and Greeks...If people dont have a different language/religion/tradition how can you separate them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Whacker
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Makedones and Greeks is the same as Spartans and Greeks...If people dont have a different language/religion/tradition how can you separate them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Whacker
Well, Macedonian and Greek language wasn't exactly the same, AFAIK. And tradition and way of life was very different in Macedonia and in Athens, for example. If we agree that they adopted Greek gods at some point,that they weren't theirs originally, your argument becomes very thin. They were under greek cultural influence, that's for sure, but were they Greeks? I don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by hellenes
I'm talking about ancient Greece. If we try to categorize them by todays national standards, then yes, I'd consider them Greek.
The Makedonians weren't considered Greek at first, but were sort of absorbed into the Hellenic mainstream by a kind of cultural osmosis. Alexander was fond of Greek culture and probably would have considered himself 'Greek'.
Most Hellenes were quick to claim him after he defeated the hated Persians thats for sure.
Alexander is certainly a fasinating character that's for sure.
Another way of looking at this is to view Alexander and his relationship to Greece through the eyes of others. In the Bible, Daniel is told that a two horned ram with one horn longer than the other represents Persia, which would be defeated by a mighty goat that would charge North, South and East. This is interpreted to be "the King of Greece". His Kingdom would be divided into four parts which we know happened after his death.
Check it out in Chapter 9 of the Book of Daniel. It's pretty fascinating. How did other nations view the Macedonians-Greeks or Macedonians?
Soo please quote me something from this imaginary "Macedonian" language...And please is there any architecture/calendar/writing or ANY evidence of a separate "Macedonian" lifestyle? Oh and where is Olympus the home of the 12 greek gods? In Makedonia? Its amazing how far the Skopjan propaganda has gotten...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
PS Aristotelis wasnt greek while we are at it... :wall: :wall:
Oh go away already.
Anyway, you're all missing the point. Clearly Alexander was black, gay and Jewish.
...and left-handed. :balloon2:
I'll never understand Greek nationalists. I can understand other Balkan nationalists, they all suffer from a small nation inferiority complex, but Greeks???
FYI, Hellenes, I don't speak a word of chinese or arabic and I couldn't write anything in those languages, but I know for a fact that they are not the same.
No one here is arguing that Alexander was macedonian from a modern state of macedonia. Everybody here knows that modern Macedonia has nothing in common with the ancient Macedonia. This discussion is about were ancient macedonians proper greeks or something close to it. So please, leave Skopje out of this as it has nithing to do with the topic...
Nationalism is nothing but trouble anyway. AFAIK its contributions to humanity amount to having noticeably increased the overall amount of violence, large-scale atrocity, conflict, discrimination, pomposity, and general asshattery (over generally quite ridiculous issues to boot) people never had any shortage of to begin with and certainly didn't need any more of.
That modern crud should have no place in any discussion concerning the world before circa 1800 AD.
.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
:yes: Make that 1840s.
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Well, historians aren't exactly unanimous (gee, what a surprise...) as to when exactly the phenomenom first starts rearing its ugly head. I used 1800 mostly because while the concept first began proliferating in the post-Napoleonic period the seeds might well have been budding already by that point. I mean, traces of nation-state thinking can be detected in European political philosophy already by the aftermath of the Thirty Years' War by what I've read of it...
But I digress.
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You don't and you are right. It can be traced even more backwards.
I prefer 1840's for a vague beginning for thediseaseidea to gain considerable popularity among masses.
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Fair enough, I guess.
Back on topic....
My guess is that Macedonians were a Greek tribe that didn't move south. Having to fight off constant raids from the Illyrians, Paiones, Thracians etc they didn't follow the way of the south Greek polis.
Furthermore they were isolated from he rest of Greece during the geometric era (Greek Dark Ages) since to the south there are the Ossa,Olympus and Kambounia mountains
Bear in mind that Macedonia's and south Greece's geography is quite different. In South Greece every city-state had its own little area surrounded by mountains and sea. To invade Athens from the north you have to cross the mountain passes of Penteli and Immitos, from the south it's Megara and then an area with a really narrow pass until you reach Isthmus and Corinth.
Likewise, to enter Boeotia you have to pass through Thermopile, to enter Laconia, Taigetus, Arcadia is like a small Tibet, Achaea is a series of small coastal "openings" between mountains and sea etc. Even Thessaly was protected by the Tempe pass. Macedonia before Philip was an area much smaller than later, around Pella and in the middle of a great plain and easy to be attacked.
That's why they retained a less civilised society, maintaining tribal systems etc. Before Phillip, the Macedonian infantry was completely useless, barely able to fight off peltasts, the nobles being the only fighting force capable to win a battle. If you read Iliad, you will see that regular soldiers were little more than fodder for the nobles.
Furthermore, we see other similar customs like having a king, a military aristocracy etc.
Don't forget that Macedonians themselves were divided in lesser tribes (Orestai, Elimeiotai, Lynkestai) subject to the central authority.
Let's take a look at this.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...an_Kingdom.jpg
Look carefully and spot two key cities. Aigai and Pella
The old and new capital. The early Macedonian kingdom was centered around Aigai, from the mountains to river Strymon. Chalkidike was conquered by Philip it was full of Greek colonies before that. The red line in the map indicates the borders when Philipp became king. During his reign the kingdom doubled its size acquiring Illyrian, Paionian lands to the north, Chalkidike to the south and many parts of Thrace to the east, threatening the straits, which was the reason for the confrontation with the Athenians.
There's also the little detail that AFAIK Macedonia, like Thessaly, was a sort of "mini-steppe" well suited for raising horses and other grazers, but not nearly so for the sort of agrarian-mercantile pattern of economy that was the norm in Hellas proper. Which left both as something of largely pastoral, rather feudal regions practically without a middle class of "peasant soldiers" to fight as hoplites, but comparatively strong in equestrian aristocracy supported by large numbers of psiloi drawn from the commoner shepherds and whatnots.
It was sort of the whole point in the developement of the pike phalanx to turn those crappy levy skirmishers into a decent heavy-infantry force capable of pinning down the hoplites of the south (or the fierce tribal warriors of the north for that matter) so the cavalry could deliver a decisive blow. Didn't Alex in one speech to his infantry speak of his father having made them from shepherds into soldiers or somesuch...?
There isnt a "modern Macedonia" but Makedonia as a Greek province where Im from...so either Im a slav or the Vardarska people arent "Macedonians"...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
You can call me nationalist/mazochist/tribalist/communist or whatever ends to -ist...I dont care...
What I care about is when people pull facts out of nowhere and just pretend that they dont make things up...
Until I see evidence of a separate "Macedonian" language/calendar/customs/burial ceremonies/tomb stones/religion I ll consider this whole sad speculation of extraterrestrial "macedonian" people just blowing air....and wont hesitate to point it out...
Yeah, whatever. Like the modern Westphalian states of Greece and FYROM actually had crap all to do with the kingdoms and city-states of over two thousand years ago anyway, save for happening to occupy roughly the same geographical space.
Just wondering, but do you have any idea how ridiculous that one-upmanship dispute you folks have down there appears to an outsider ? I suppose one should be glad it hasn't degenerated into general atrocity and massacre as Balkan collective inferiority complexes have had a bad habit to...
Then how bout France forcing BRITAIN to change its name to UK to enter the EU because Britain is a province in France? How ridiculus...But wait we arent france but a small American protectorate...that cannot dare to oppose MrSoros...Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
Might I suggest you find a comparision that A) isn't patently ridiculous B) doesn't bite you in the arse ?
Spare me the drama. You're not going to find much understanding for that dumb mutual inferiority complex you guys have down there, and even less sympathy.
Oh would you two stop whining!
The Balkans have been conquered some many times by so many differant people (Slavs, Makedonians, Romans, Illyrians, Turks, Serbs, Hungarians and God knows who else) that trying to bring modern problems into a discussion about whether or not Alexander the Great was Greek or not (it's a trick question) is both intellectually dishonest and and morally idoitic.
Alexander, if you could ask him, would consider Himself Hellenic, but the inhabitants of what is now the FYR Macedonia and the provience of Makedonia at the TIME THAT HE LIVED were not considered Greek by the Athenians, Spartans, Corinthians etc, they were thought of as 'barbarians' because they DID NOT speak ancient Greek/Hellenic, and that differance of langauge was what was most important to the people of the Greek city states.
Several key points here.
This is 100% true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hound of Ulster
True and not true.Quote:
but the inhabitants of what is now the FYR Macedonia and the provience of Makedonia at the TIME THAT HE LIVED were not considered Greek by the Athenians, Spartans, Corinthians etc,
True and again not true, the sticking point that I'll get to in a second is that the nobility spoke proper Greek, and it was during Phillip and Alexander's time that Greek found mass penetration into all levels of society.Quote:
they were thought of as 'barbarians' because they DID NOT speak ancient Greek/Hellenic,
That's not how I read it, the key differences were in culture (which one may argue that language is a component of).Quote:
and that differance of langauge was what was most important to the people of the Greek city states.
The real sticking point here is that if you were to look at Macedonia pre-Phillip, then well and truly "no, Macedonians were not greek" would have been a fair assessment. It was Phillip who started the real "hellenization" of Macedonian society and started some of the greatest social shifts of their culture to bring them more in line with proper "Greece". Alexander simply took what his father started and ran with it. It also speaks miles and miles and miles that at first, Alexander's conquest of Greece and Asia Minor was performed under the guise of "Avenging Greek Honor and Losses and Restoring Proper Greek Democracy" to the major Greek city-states and their Anatolian counterparts, AND he maintained this charade successfully (for the most part) all throughout his campaign. The fact that he used this bit of propaganda AND was so insanely successful at it is evident in how much he conquered, how many "true" Greeks fought under his banners, and even how little resistance there was back home, look at the abortive Spartan rebellion and how many other city-states joined them (none).
Thus I would again submit that during Alexander's time, he and Macedonia well and truly came to be accepted into the "Greek" culture and fold and as such would be rightly considered both Macedonian and Greek.
:balloon2:
Is there ANY evidence of a separate "Macedonian" language/calendar/customs/burial ceremonies/tomb stones/religion? If yes please enlighten me...Quote:
Originally Posted by Whacker
First of all
@ hellenes
calm down. you don't defend your case better with rhetorics
Quote:
The real sticking point here is that if you were to look at Macedonia pre-Phillip, then well and truly "no, Macedonians were not greek" would have been a fair assessment. It was Phillip who started the real "hellenization" of Macedonian society and started some of the greatest social shifts of their culture to bring them more in line with proper "Greece". Alexander simply took what his father started and ran with it. It also speaks miles and miles and miles that at first, Alexander's conquest of Greece and Asia Minor was performed under the guise of "Avenging Greek Honor and Losses and Restoring Proper Greek Democracy" to the major Greek city-states and their Anatolian counterparts, AND he maintained this charade successfully (for the most part) all throughout his campaign. The fact that he used this bit of propaganda AND was so insanely successful at it is evident in how much he conquered, how many "true" Greeks fought under his banners, and even how little resistance there was back home, look at the abortive Spartan rebellion and how many other city-states joined them (none).
If you think that Phillip managed to complete Macedonia's "hellenization" in a few decades then....completely changing an entire nation's culture is difficult moreover a nation that exists through tribal relationships.
Macedonia is regarded by most historians as a Greek tribe. The fact that Macedonia's geography is different than the rest of Greece and that it was the barricade for all the barbarian invasions is responsible for it not being like the polis,Simple as that.
Talking about hellenizations that occur within a decade, conspiracies by Macedonian kings to appear Greek are far fetched.
In the end, don't forget that the Macedonian king Alexander I said it himself:
"Men of Athens... In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Hellas; I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery. I tell you, then, that Mardonius and his army cannot get omens to his liking from the sacrifices. Otherwise you would have fought long before this. Now, however, it is his purpose to pay no heed to the sacrifices, and to attack at the first glimmer of dawn, for he fears, as I surmise, that your numbers will become still greater. Therefore, I urge you to prepare, and if (as may be) Mardonius should delay and not attack, wait patiently where you are; for he has but a few days' provisions left. If, however, this war ends as you wish, then must you take thought how to save me too from slavery, who have done so desperate a deed as this for the sake of Hellas in my desire to declare to you Mardonius' intent so that the barbarians may not attack you suddenly before you yet expect them. I who speak am Alexander the Macedonian."
Case closed. :yes:
And that happened in 480, a century before Phillip.
Seconded, this isn't the Backroom Hellenes. Not supporting your arguments and haphazardly re-questioning others who've provided support doesn't help your case one bit. I've read several books on ol' Alex, all of which are at my house (I'm abroad for vacation) so I can't tell you what they were, I do remember the most recent one which was "Alexander the Great" by Robin Lane Fox if you're looking for some source material.
No, he didn't, he started the specific major shift that we know of, and Alexander continued it. The distinction here is at what point do we assign some arbitrary value or date and state that the Hellenization was 'complete' or 'sufficient' by then. I have yet to read anything that remotely refutes or disagrees with what I've been stating on this, if you have something specific then please cite it, I and I'm sure the others here would very much like to see alternate or differing viewpoints.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vorian
And as for changing a culture "completely", that certainly didn't happen. Macedonians were similar in certain aspects (religion, language was changing at the time, certain social aspects and views) to their "proper" Greek brethren, so "complete" change wasn't needed. What Phil and Alex did do was radically restructure their government, enforce their sovereignty over the tribal structures as much as they possibly could which was unheard of before (and was significant but not total), and generally urbanize and modernize the more populous centers in their territory, Pella being the prime example. One thing that I must concede is that my knowledge of these shifts does not extend very much to the lower classes of Macedonian society at the time, but the documentation does indicate that the changes effected did have universal impact. Most of the specific Hellenization we are discussing appears to have been at the aristocratic level, in other words Phillip, Alexander, Ptolemy and Seleucus, the other nobility and leadership as we see in the bringing of Aristotle to teach.
Edit - Perhaps "Hellenization" as I'm using it above is insufficient and improper to use by itself. The Macedonians were culturally similar in certain respects, so perhaps we should state more accurately that Philip and Alexander both "Hellenized" and "modernized" Macedonian society to bring it more closely in-line with 'proper' Greek culture at the time? Just a thought.
This is still in-line with what I've read so yes there is agreement. The other part to this which you've already stated is that Macedonian culture was tribal until the period of time leading up to Phillip and A-dogg, which also had a major impact on how they were viewed.Quote:
Macedonia is regarded by most historians as a Greek tribe. The fact that Macedonia's geography is different than the rest of Greece and that it was the barricade for all the barbarian invasions is responsible for it not being like the polis,Simple as that.
Indeed, this was said. However, that is simply one facet of the discussion. The Macedonians considered themselves to be "Greek" well before Phillip/Alexander as you've provided evidence of. This is of course open to debate if others can provide some good material to consider, as are the other points; did the other "Greeks" consider the Macedonians "Greek", and in hindsight given our knowledge and surviving materials, would WE consider the Macedonians truly "Greek" from our modern standpoint? I still say "Yes" to all three.Quote:
Talking about hellenizations that occur within a decade, conspiracies by Macedonian kings to appear Greek are far fetched.
In the end, don't forget that the Macedonian king Alexander I said it himself:
"Men of Athens... In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Hellas; I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, ... I who speak am Alexander the Macedonian."
And that happened in 480, a century before Phillip.
That probably won't sway Hellenes.
I think that map put up by a previous poster really illustrates the uselessness of the arguments in this thread. The region that now comprises the Greek provience of Makedonia is/was a seperate entity from the region now know as the FYR Macedonia. The region that now houses the FYR Macedonia anciently was Illyrian, not Greek, and was only given the name 'Macedonia', as a way of countering Croat and Serb nationalism with a third force, even going so far as to supporting spurious scholarship claiming a seperate 'Macedonian language, by Tito in the 1940s. So I'm going to call it the FYR of Illyria from now on.
And no, if you had asked your average Athenian or Spartan if Alexander's country was 'Greek', they would have looked very angrily at you and said 'NO!' along with a few other choice words.
@ hound of Ulster
I don't think this is a discussion about FYROM. It's about ancient Macedonia.
As for what ancient Greeks thought of them:
Herodotus says they were Dorians from Phtiotis, Ossa and Olympus that migrated and changed their name to Macedonians. "Doriko te kai Makednon ethnos"
So he regards them Greek. I will take his words for truth.
As for Macedonia "mak" is the doric root for length (makos=length, mikos in ionic)
In Odyssey the subject "makednis" is mentioned to describe lengthy objects.
Now Macedonia literally means "long country" and it was compared to the small territories of polis.
I will agree that Phillip modernized Macedonia, importing arts etc from Athens. He actually "atticized" it.Quote:
Edit - Perhaps "Hellenization" as I'm using it above is insufficient and improper to use by itself. The Macedonians were culturally similar in certain respects, so perhaps we should state more accurately that Philip and Alexander both "Hellenized" and "modernized" Macedonian society to bring it more closely in-line with 'proper' Greek culture at the time? Just a thought.
Give me quotes from Spartans saying NO...and as far as Athenians are concerned that half Scythe Demosthenes wont do...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hound of Ulster
Its so amazingly striking how all the words on that map are Greek...amazing and painful fro some people indeed...
Spot on. Good ole Alex was Greek in the same sense that a Leonidas was. Or a Pericles. Or a Herodotus. Greeks all, yet all quite different in outlook depending on their respective poleis or regions of origin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
It is probable that most Makedonians of Phillippos' and Alexander's time spoke Greek, but it is at the same time possible that they also spoke a Makedonian vernacular. Most of their recorded names are Greek, to the exception of a few names like Sabattaras or Arridaeus. It is not unreasonable to assume that they spoke a Makedonian vernacular but preferred to speak and write Greek in their official dealings, in the same way that the eighteenth-century upper classes in Europe spoke French. Hellenisation reinforced this phenomenon, to the point where we know only about a hundred originally Makedonian words. They could well be words from highly localised Makedonian dialects that do not point to the existence of a Makedonian language in its own right.
On the other hand some ancient sources state that Greeks could not understand Makedonians whenever they engaged in makedonizein, meaning 'Macedonizing', and that Alexander's Greek troops couldn't understand his (presumably Makedonian) orders on various occasions.
Baseline: we just don't know.
IIRC there was Laconizein, Attikizein etc etc...plus if you were fluent in Attic greek you wouldnt make squat out of Laconian dialect hell even today we dont understand 70% of the Cypriot or Pontic dialects...but they are Greek and closer to the ancient one than modern Greek...Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
There is plenty of evidence to support the hellenism of the Makedonians with 0 evidence to teh contrary...