Great, thanks for the info! I have seen the torch animation, but I wasn't aware that it signified a hardcoded weapon switch for the attackers. :bow:
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Great, thanks for the info! I have seen the torch animation, but I wasn't aware that it signified a hardcoded weapon switch for the attackers. :bow:
I attacked Algerias castle last night, eager to put my 3 shiny new Demi Culverins to good use. To be sure I really hammered the castle nice and fast I brought along a Mangonel and 4 catapults.
It was realtively lightly defended so I didn't need too much in terms of actual troops to kill the defenders.
What I found out surprised me. Despite the Demi Culvs. being more powerful and more accurate, with the same reload time, the 4 catapults destroyed their target (a catapult tower) well before the 3 Demi Culverins and Mangonel destroyed theirs. The mangonel also got destroyed by the castles catapults after a couple of shots, but still I would have thought the Demi Culverins would destroy their target much quicker?
Instead, they missed a lot more than the catapults (both cat's and culvs were 4-5 valour), and while this was ok because it damaged the walls behind, that's not the point. Has anyone else found something similar?
What's your Siege weapon of choice? I love using them on defense aginst foot/archer heavy armies. So far I think i like the humble Catapult the best. Does anyone know if the cannon type artillery pieces (Demi Culv's/ Culverins) can safely fire over the heads of your own troops at ground level? I ask because I put them on a hill once and they couldn't target the enemy once they got below the Demi Culv's level. I'm thinking it might be best to use them at ground level rather than on hills, even though you give up a bit of range adavtage.
I'm really starting to like the "kill you in waves" approach to defense, where the closer you get, the more you get hurt. 2-3 Demi Culverins at the back, 3 Catapults interspersed between them, then line of Archers (1 unit) and 2 Organ Guns (one at each end of the eacher line). Finally 2 Pavise Arbalesters form the front line. 3 units of heavy infantry and 2 units of cavalry wait behind this line (or perhaps just 5 units of mixed heavy/light cavalry?).
If you have a gentle slope to work with, switch the organ gun/archer line with the Arbalester line. As soon as they come into range, the cannons start, as they get a bit closer, the Catapults kick in, giving a fairly steady barrage of artillery that should start hurting. As they get closer (but still out or archery range) the Arbalesters start to volley as well.
If they have arbalesters too, they may try returning fire here but they will be very heavily outgunned as the artillery will tear them apart once they stop moving. Those that continue to close the gap face the rapid fire of regular Archers volleys as well as the Arb's. Finally, anything that gets closer than Archery range will face a double barreled shotgun blast from the 2 Organ Guns before they can get anywhere near melee range.
If they don't break by this point, the heavy cavalry will charge them backed by the heavy infantry to mop up after the charge if necessary.
such a strategy would be weak against a Cavalry heavy force that can speed through the hail of missiles with minimal loses, or a force that could outmanouver the defensive position and get the artillery out of alignment, but foot heavy armies or mixed forced should get torn apart I'd think.
I think I'll try a custom battle with something like this and see how it works! I love the idea of creating a missile storm that only gets worse the closer you get, and if you do make it through, you will be facing fresh, fully manned heavy infantry troops or a heavy cavalry charge into your depleted ranks.
Valour for missile troops affects accuracy, so I'd suggest you retry the test with all your artillery types at same valour levels. (And that's a good reason to use your artillery in the field battle first, as they valour up quite nicely :2thumbsup: )Quote:
Originally Posted by Heidrek
I found the mention of torches interesting, as I was always under the impression that the torches were on the "other side" ie being thrown from the walls (by those invisible defenders) on to the hapless attackers below - at least that's the way it LOOKS. They fall down and out from the walls, and also can be seen with stone walls, which no infantry/melee unit can attack :inquisitive:
I'm sure torches are thrown from the walls onto the attackers, though I can't say I've ever noticed anyone die from one.
My favourite artillery piece for killing is the demi-culverin, and yes, it can fire over the heads of defenders. But my favourite piece of all is the serpentine, even though I hardly ever get to use it. The enemy is terrified of it, and often will halt their advance just out of range. That means that if you're outnumbered in terms of spears/swords, if you have 2 or 3 serpentines spaced along the defensive wall and plenty of missile troops you can still win the day.
The torches are swiftly thrown upwards and then more slowly loop back and downwards to quite clearly impact with the wall causing damage. Try running a custom battle and attack a wooden walled fort. zoom right in and watch it for a while and you'll see what I mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by macsen rufus
:bow:
Eat lead Emperor!
Artillery often make for some very fun destruction, and are excellent for bombarding hapless enemies as they advance, as long as it isn't raining that is. The smoke, the sound, the corpses. :2thumbsup:
Why the Demi-Culverin and not the Culverin? i haven't used the Culverin yet, but it looks pretty fearsome. Huge range, good accuracy, decent relaod time. Looks like an all round better version of the Demi.Quote:
Originally Posted by gregori99
I have thried Serpentines yet either, but they look fun. Good range and reload time.
I've got to say though that all round it's pretty tough to beat the humble catapult. High angle of fire means that it's "bounces" fall closer together, especially at closer ranges, increasing the likelihood of casualties. Very capable of taking down castle walls in multiples, fires in the rain and can turn. they stay useful troughout the game, and can even be used to defend castle attacks, firing over the walls to hit apporaching units.
all in all though, artillery is pretty damn cool. I can't wait to play as the English so I can get my Artillery/Longbow/Pav. crossbow or Pav. Arbalest overlapping archery wall in place. Anyone walking through that hailstorm of artillery and armour piercing arrows is going to get mauled.
I'm thinking something like this formation:
<-P. Xbows-><-P. Xbows->
<---Lbows--><--Lbows--->
<---2 x Infantry---><--Lbows--> <--Lbows---><--2 x Infantry--->
<Cavalry> <----------------4 x Artillery-------------><Calvalry>
Either that or a single unit of Pav's at the front with 3 L.Bows behind in a long line and 2 more units of cavalry?
Naturally there would have to be a "follow up" penalty - a reduction in trade income and an inability to move troops across said border are both options...but I fear that we digress from the main issue of the thread, so I promise to sit back, shut up, and behave now....Quote:
Originally Posted by Heidrek
Personally I love the typo that says a culverin fires a 45 kilo shot, they actually fired on average 5-10 kilo shots.
I know the effect of which you speak, but I'm still not convinced - why? Because the same happens at stone walls - which the infantry cannot attack - hence I believe the torches come from the walls, not the attackers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caravel
Still, as neither party seems to be harmed by them, it really is a big-end/little-end debate :laugh4:
The long range of the culverin is its achilles heel. Once the enemy get within a certain range it's useless. The same happens with demi-culverins but you get to use them much longer. Culverins are more use on attack than defence, if you expect the enemy to be on the defensive, because you can usually reach them wherever they put themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Heidrek
The serpentines have a really short range, but if the enemy try to press home their attack they are devastating. I've seen a 100 strong unit of Chivalric Sergeants route after one shot, leaving 70-80 men dead. A few of those may have fallen to arrow fire but you get the picture.
After you've played with the more advanced artillery for a bit, I'd be surprised if you still favoured catapults :laugh4:
If you play the XL mod, you get to use Naptha Catapults as well...
Each turn is a year, so it would be quite easy to re-build a bridge in that time (like broken catapults, trebuchets etc. are assumed to have been rebuilt after a battle). If you can blow bridges during a battle, maybe you could have fords so it as still possible to get across, but more difficult with slowed movement.Quote:
Originally Posted by bamff
None of which is possible with MTW but would have been interesting.
Well that's rediculous. Cannons were not that effective in this time period.Quote:
Originally Posted by gregori99
The serpentine's not a cannon but a volley-gun. I can't comment on how effective they were on the battlefield, but they were deployed extensively during the 100 years war. According to Wikipedia Edward III had a volley gun (a ribauldequin) with 144 barrels in groups of 12. Certainly by the end of the 100 years war (over 100 years later) the weapon would have been more developed.
I only guessed at the casualty figures I quoted. I remember the unit reeling away with fewer than 20 survivors. How many actually fell to the serpentine was a guess but it was a lot. All lying in neat rows :devilish:
Just think how many men would be hit by 144 pieces of iron shot fired into tightly packed men at close range.
Gotta love artilley. I take it the Serenpentine is a better anti personel artillery piece than an Organ Gun? Can they fire over troops or need a clear line of fire?
Just checked the stats on Serpentines Vs Organ Guns.
Serpentines look like fast reloading, low power Demi Culverins. Same long range, same blast radius, same accuracy level. Aside from faster reload time and lower power per shot they seems the same. No idea why a Serpentine blast would take out so many people then a Demi Culverin hit only wipes our 2-4.
Organ Guns on the other hand have much shorter range (less than vanilla archers), long reload time, very low power, but a huge blast radius, about 5 x the blast radius of a Demi Culv.
Are you sure it wasn't an organ gun that wreaked such terrible devastation against the spears?
I should have added that I'm playing the XL mod currently. I'll have to check if VH modded the serpentine. Certainly, the XL sepentine doesn't have the range of demi-culverins. I'll get back to you...Quote:
Originally Posted by Heidrek
Ribaldequin is the same as organ gun: multiple barrels, fire small projectiles, short range, mainly against infantry. Serpentine is a primitive canon, firing with serpentine powder, which is a primitive form of black powder (using unrefined potassum nitrate), has one barrel, sending heavier projectile.
Annie
ps.: this is to counter gregory99 about "serpentine is an organ gun".
Whoops - there's nothing like having a senior moment and making a fool of yourself...
Of course when I said 'serpentine' I actually meant 'organ gun'. talk about a brainstorm. :embarassed:
He he he, what about using a couple of Organ Guns in a castle defense. Set them up behind the innermost gate house with support troops behind then and vaporise the packed warriors trying to break down the gate!
Anyone tried this? Can you fire through the closed gate?
Even if you cant, you can set three up pointed at the gate, but set back a bit. As soon as it falls and units start trickling through let em rip and wipe out the invading forces. then send in your troops to mop up the shell shocked survivors while they reload. Hopefully they rout and you can set up again for the next unfortunates!!
That's the best use of organ gun: surprise attackers behind a protected environment. In the open, organ gun has so short a range, it is a liability more than an asset.
Annie
Well it must have been changed in the XL mod because in MTW the serpentine is a light cannon with the same 320 meter range as a demi-culvern.Quote:
Originally Posted by gregori99
Yes I know. See my self-flaggellation a couple of posts up :wall:Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
hahaha.eee.easy mistake gregori99. how I just need to get me a couple of Organ Guns to put in front of my infantry line when I'm defending and I'll get a chance to see this bad boy in action. Even if they only get one round off each wave I'm confident that my infantry can break the remaining attackers giving them a chance to reload. I'm thinking Gallowglasses and CMAA or Vikings should make short work of the unfortunates that make it through the overlapping waves of missiles.
Just got back into MTW - simply superb game, every bit as good as I remeber it.
I'm playing the tiberius mod, and I've noticed that catapults now suck! they have almost no range meaning you get fewer shots in before they close for melee, has anyone used them effecively in the Tib mod? I guess at bridge battles they'd still be ok....