Your most overrated/underrated unit

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Originally Posted by gurakshun

{of Chalkaspides}Yeah, they are great in Field Battles, but when it comes to sieges (especially where your guys must run around for like 5 minutes to get to the town square because you attacked the city at an inconvenient place), they cause me a lot of troubles when it comes to subduing the square defenders. Sieges are timed and require your units to perform really well to capture the square. Having all exhausted units because your so-called elites have the physical fitness level of a bucket of lard does not make this easy.

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Ah, I play unlimited time sieges. And I make a specific point of resting my units during protracted battles.

BTW, if you do this, I recommend binding keys for single and triple speed in the options. It makes standing around less painful.

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On this, I would rather take Kleruchoi Phalangitai over the Chalky Spiders - the Kleruchois cost less, have only a little less defense (which is made up by the type 3 gov't exp bonus that you need to recruit them with), and most importantly: have the 'hardy' attribute.

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I wouldn't especially mind which I'm using. They're both good enough to pin anything, and neither will take much missile damage. It's more about where the nearest MIC is -- I built spiders in Armaseia and Klereuchoi in Seleukeia/Alexandreia. [I wish I'd gone for Antiocheia or Sidon instead of Seleukeia to get them sooner, but such is hindsight.]

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Originally Posted by pezhetairoi

Hold on a minute... you mean you can retrain those factional-unit mercs in MICs? O.O

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Depends how the mercs are set up, but often yes. If they have "Mercenary" or ancient language equivalents (Misthophoroi, Mizdagan(?), etc.) in the name or just have a different name than what they obviously are (Curepos/Leuce Epos) you can never retrain. Otherwise, you're good to go. Ones I've seen so far that could be retrainable for the right factions are the Georgian Inf., Mardian Archers, Shipri Tukul, Iaosatae, Cretan Archers, and assuming nothing has changed in Italy from 0.8, the two Samnite infantries. I'm sure there are plenty more elsewhere on the map.

Goodness, i never knew that. That's cool stuff to know.

By the way, does anyone ever use those Baltic archer units? lankininkas and medininkas? Curious to see if any one has ever used them and their impressions of them...

I don't think anyone really bothers with the baltics, though I have heard horror stories of them chewing theough full stack post marians...


My new favourite unit: Machimoi hippeis, those AP axes are just the thing to deal with seleukid heavies, cavalry and infantry.

ok, my most under-rated unit would have to be the Indo-Iranian LC- they are very fast and not very weak, for LC. there is at least 1 unit in all of my armies, kind of as a shock unit.
as for over-rated.... i dont know- yet.

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Originally Posted by gurakshun

By the way, does anyone ever use those Baltic archer units? lankininkas and medininkas? Curious to see if any one has ever used them and their impressions of them...

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I had hired some of them as mercs in my last Sweboz campaign. In fact I had a small Baltic army of mercs that refused to cross the Rhine or the Alps (roleplaying, I considered them to be allies). They had a fair conduct in the few fightings I had with them against random rebells and one smaller Roman army; but nothing special after all, avarage Barbarian units - save for their very low upkeep.

I busted a gut to get the Gallic heavy spears as Pontos and I'm going to keep using them! Probably over-rated though.

As the Getai I couldn't wait to get those Agrianian archers, and boy was I dissapointed. As archers they made great medium inf, except not. They did have the very hardy stat, so they could run away all day.

I always underrated the classic hoplite: its just so retro. However a session as the KH taught me this unit could be the backbone of any empire. Cheap, die-hard, moderately versatile, I've been sold on the spearmen in mini-skirts.

The one unit that really does live up to the hype is the naked boys. Their faults are well known: a weakness to javelins and really poor dress sense. Aside from that, they are pure gold.

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Originally Posted by Cyclops

I always underrated the classic hoplite: its just so retro. However a session as the KH taught me this unit could be the backbone of any empire. Cheap, die-hard, moderately versatile, I've been sold on the spearmen in mini-skirts.

The one unit that really does live up to the hype is the naked boys. Their faults are well known: a weakness to javelins and really poor dress sense. Aside from that, they are pure gold.

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i also like the hopolites and naked mercs, athough the naked guys are almost 8000 to hire.

for overated i would say spartan hopolites. in the tests ive done they can be beaten by alot of other elite units.

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Originally Posted by Perturabo

I have to agree on this, the new bodyguards just aren't the same. Used to have fun using these guys as skirmishers and then charging the flanks/backs when the enemy got tied down in battle. Being a little bit different to the rest doesn't hurt!

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Yep. With the new bodyguards, I don't think Pontos deserves the "nigh impossible" qualification in the faction selection screen. I remember reading that the EB Team has recognized this though, and has planned some more changes to Pontos for 1.1.

I ignored zradha shivatir in my first campaign as the Pahlav, focusing instead on building a powerful charging force around grivpanvar and sahigan pahr. This was a mistake.

Zradha shivatir are tactically flexible, heavily armoured and have an extremely good kill rate. As a result of these qualities, they rapidly become very experienced units that can charge every bit as hard as the grivpanvar while out-shooting their unarmoured brethren 3-to-2.

Their high kill rate also means that, as expensive as they are, they actually make for an economic core unit for Pahlav cavalry armies. A half stack of them is enough - there are very few armies that can withstand being hit by 40,000 arrows and then charged by 1,000 elite heavy cavalry.

Unless everyone else has these guys at or near the top of their "most feared" list, then they're definitely underrated.

On the other hand, Gaesatae are overrated pansies. I have a half stack of zradha shivatir who are willing to prove it.

Zradha Shivatir are at the top of my "most feared" list. When they gallop over the horizon, I usually decide to travel in the same direction as them. And call for reinforcements, many reinforcements.

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Originally Posted by mrtwisties

Unless everyone else has these guys at or near the top of their "most feared" list, then they're definitely underrated.

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Those are the Parthian version of the cataphract horse archer? I don't think anyone would class those as "underrated" - they're pretty clearly an awesome unit, arguably the best in the game. I'd build more of them as Hayasdan if I could afford them. One per army, supported by ~3 basic HA works fine though.

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Originally Posted by CirdanDharix

Zradha Shivatir are at the top of my "most feared" list. When they gallop over the horizon, I usually decide to travel in the same direction as them. And call for reinforcements, many reinforcements.

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How do you kill these bastards short of getting your own cataphract HAs? Would a line of phalanxes with a whole row of siege weapons behind them (the arrow-ballista type) put the hurt on them any?

One way. The other way is throw cheap AP infantry at 'em. Babylonian Heavy Infantry are sure killers (nice armour rating, not too expensive, AP side-arm, and as with all such units they use their side-arm more often than their spear). Hyrkanian infantry. Pantodapoi Phalangitai + Klerouchoi Phalangitai. (Pantodapoi P. on their own do not have enough staying power, you should use the Klerouchoi as fodder because they will hold much longer; whilst the Pantodapoi with their AP axes hack down the horsie-men.)

As always: avoid them in the open; combat them in the streets.

If you must insist on fighting them on the open then your best HA bet would be the Pahlava Shivatir (the light horse archers, with some serious bite) + slingers as always. Kinsmen cavalry are quite lethal as well, and actually fast enough to catch & kill such units. Median Medium cavalry is another sure go, though they might suffer from lack of armour. Also you would want to play on the defensive: a solid line of cheap phalanx troops as a wall for your archers & slingers to shoot from behind. Make sure to have the high ground (reduces friendly fire).

on my parthanage one i kinda gave up cause it seemed that arrows wouldn't do anything to the selicuid phalaxes. and id end up fighting infantry with calvary. was this a dumb idea?

while we're on the topic a question...

why does it seem infatry always beat calvary in melee? even without stirups u'd think the guy on the horse could easily take on one or two unmounted soldiers. did they have small horses or somthing?

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Originally Posted by quackingduck

on my parthanage one i kinda gave up cause it seemed that arrows wouldn't do anything to the selicuid phalaxes. and id end up fighting infantry with calvary. was this a dumb idea?

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While you certainly can take on phalanxes with melee units (you'd want some sort of sacrificial infantry on the pike side of the phalanx while the cavalry hits them), carefully employed horse archers can easily demolish a phalanx. Do not fire at a phalanx from the front with any unit short of siege artillery. What makes horse archers so awesome is their mobility. A pure infantry army (as the AI so often uses) cannot prevent horse archers from circling around the flanks. A human player might mitigate this by corner-camping, but the AI won't. Once you've got a shot at the rear or right flank (no shield there), fire away. With large numbers of horse archers you can guarantee that some of them always have that flank/rear shot, no matter what the enemy does. It takes a bit of micromanagement, but it's absolutely devastating. Kill ratios on the order of 100:1 are routine - your main concern is enemy missile units, phalanxes are just target practice.

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why does it seem infatry always beat calvary in melee? even without stirups u'd think the guy on the horse could easily take on one or two unmounted soldiers. did they have small horses or somthing?

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Horses were smaller then, as I understand it. That's why chariots were so popular and powerful in ancient (1000+ BCE) warfare - horses weren't bred up to the size needed to support a warrior and his gear until sometime in the first millennium.

As to your game question, much depends on the units in question. Extended melee is suboptimal for cavalry since they get so much benefit from charging. Many infantry get the spear bonus against cavalry, while the latter have no special bonus after the charge wears off. And of course cavalry are always less numerous. There could very well be a unit density effect at play as well. Individuals from a cavalry unit often end up within the enemy infantry formation after the charge, so a fair number of infantry attacks will be going against the rear of the cavalryman where he only has his armor, not his defense skill or shield (if any). Still, really tough cav like cataphracts will do just fine in melee, they'll just do even better if they pull back and charge again.

This question of how to defeat HAs reminds me of something I was thinking about the other day. In real life, why did they never invent phalangite archers? Kleruchoi phalangitai with composite bows would be impossible for a HA army to defeat.

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Originally Posted by mrtwisties

This question of how to defeat HAs reminds me of something I was thinking about the other day. In real life, why did they never invent phalangite archers? Kleruchoi phalangitai with composite bows would be impossible for a HA army to defeat.

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Heard about Los Tercios de España? Its pretty much the same or better.

http://www.elpais.com/recorte/200608...pepucul_13.jpg

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Originally Posted by mrtwisties

This question of how to defeat HAs reminds me of something I was thinking about the other day. In real life, why did they never invent phalangite archers? Kleruchoi phalangitai with composite bows would be impossible for a HA army to defeat.

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Bit hard to carry a pike and a footbow and a shield and arrows. IIRC there was a book (from about 1625 a quick google tells me) called the "double-armed man" which was a plea to combine the english longbow tradition with the dominant spanish/swiss inspired pike revival, but I don't think anyone took it seriously.

Best bet is "combined arms" forces, with a spear element to repel shock from elite/heavy HA's, a missile element to shoot the HA's ar range, and a light cav element for pursuit.

As pointed out, the tercios combined pike with ranged fire effectively. I think the Achaemenids had 2 man shield/bow teams as a standard infantry. I think the best of the Byzantines had a fine assortment of archer, HA, spear and light cav.

Eventually the ring bayonet made every musket a mini-pike too. From that point, HA forces were toast.

The formations of a phalanx unit is incompatible with archery. The phalanx would need to be densely packed, the archers need space to shoot. Not to mention that a feigned charge would leave the guys in a rut:

* Holster or drop bow
* Pick up shield and pike
* Run to get into phalanx formation
* Get all spears pointing right
* oh crap they wheeled around, let's get back to shooting!
* loosen up
* drop pike and shield
* hey, there they turned and come again!
* Pick up shield and pike
* SPLAT

The Romans used massed archers fairly well against the Parthians. The only thing phalangite archers would by you is flexibility which is pretty much the antithesis of the phalangite. You need something like archer Hypastai or something like that.

Under Alexander, I think they were trained in a variety of fighting methods and the Persians had archer/spearmen type so I don't that something alogn those lines supporting the phalanx would be out of the realm of possibility.

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

One way. The other way is throw cheap AP infantry at 'em. Babylonian Heavy Infantry are sure killers (nice armour rating, not too expensive, AP side-arm, and as with all such units they use their side-arm more often than their spear). Hyrkanian infantry. Pantodapoi Phalangitai + Klerouchoi Phalangitai. (Pantodapoi P. on their own do not have enough staying power, you should use the Klerouchoi as fodder because they will hold much longer; whilst the Pantodapoi with their AP axes hack down the horsie-men.)

As always: avoid them in the open; combat them in the streets.

If you must insist on fighting them on the open then your best HA bet would be the Pahlava Shivatir (the light horse archers, with some serious bite) + slingers as always. Kinsmen cavalry are quite lethal as well, and actually fast enough to catch & kill such units. Median Medium cavalry is another sure go, though they might suffer from lack of armour. Also you would want to play on the defensive: a solid line of cheap phalanx troops as a wall for your archers & slingers to shoot from behind. Make sure to have the high ground (reduces friendly fire).

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Yeah, that's about all you can do if you don' t have your own. I'd advise strongly against using artillery against them: when it hits them it kills them, but generally it misses. You'll probably get more kills from a quality foot archer unit, such as Syrians or Cretans (Bosphorans probably also, I just haven't tried them). And of course, uber-slingers. Also, in an archer fight, the high ground isn't so much good to avoid friendly fire, as to give your archers a huge advantage against the enemy archers.

But in any case, defeating cataphract archers is going to cost you a fair number of troops. That's why I fear them: no unit is invincible, but most can be defeated fairly easily if you have the right counter whereas the armoured HA will make you bleed no matter what you do.

Elephants, armoured elphants if you are rich, then just lure the AI into charging range. (no very hard task, AI being what it is)

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Originally Posted by Eduorius

Heard about Los Tercios de España? Its pretty much the same or better.

http://www.elpais.com/recorte/200608...pepucul_13.jpg

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Outstanding picture, looks like quite risky reenactement or is it from a movie?

I think Cretian archers or their Syrian and Bosporian variant would make good Mangas when using phalanxes as Tercios. In an Epeirote campaing I had used Hastati on that position after the conquest of Italy. They also did very well with their AP pila. On the other hand, Tercio tactics are somewhat limited in EB because of the AI's habit to run around all the time. It is best used when facing the enemy head on when your army has only limited or weaker phalanxis, in particular when the enemy's army is stronger in cavalry:

The correct deployment would be:


M___M
__PP
__PP
M___M

P = Phalanx. Can be 4 units or one or two in a square
M = Mangas. Historicaly musketeers, what we don't have, so use swordfigthers with missle ability (minimum Peltastai, best Cretian Archers)

Because that is somewhat difficult to deploy and moved around without much micromanagement I would use this variant:

M PP M M PP M

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Originally Posted by Pharnakes

Elephants, armoured elphants if you are rich, then just lure the AI into charging range. (no very hard task, AI being what it is)

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I just tested that: for less than the money to field 181 Unarmoured Elephant guys I could field 2021 Cataphract Archers. Expensive idea.

Ahh, but its all about the style.

Plus, you guys set the prices, so :shrug:

That's true. The only two other downsides are that nearest elephant country is India which is ususally not your turf yet at the moment you have got to deal with both the Pahalva and/or Pontos and/or Baktria.

And that the war is expensive enough already.

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Originally Posted by konny

Outstanding picture, looks like quite risky reenactement or is it from a movie?

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Its from the movie Alatriste and the scene is the Battle of Rocroi.

I lost a major sabean mercenary army once to a bunch of indian guild warriors. I didn't look at their stats, and hadn't fought in that area of the world before, at that time. If I remember, these guild warriors had AP AND a high attack rating... many AP units have less than stellar attack ratings, but not these guys. They chewed up my better-armored mercenaries something fierce.