U.S. Prez Election: Michigan Primary/Nevada Caucus

Obama has been focusing on rhetoric and the cult of personality for the past few states. He will most likely switch tactics now - not from the hope message, but from the pure rhetoric. Now he has people listening and they will be more receptive to the message when he delivers it as his main point. We will see what he believes in as time goes on. I don't believe his campaign to be empty of strong issues. I also don't believe him to be a bridge builder as he says he is. That is fluff to the ears of his constituents. People do like poetry in political speeches, that is just a reality that we have to deal with.

I really don't mind Obama in the ways that I mind Hillary. I would much rather have Obama become president than Hillary. However, Nader says that he would most likely run if Hillary received the nod - which I believe would help to sink the Democratic campaign. I doubt he would run if Obama received the nomination.

Pluses and minuses to both candidacies.

Xiahou, in much the same spirit, I'm sorry your candidate can only pull 1% of the vote in his own party's primary. That's gotta sting. And I'm also sorry you can't vote for a third Bush term.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Xiahou, in much the same spirit, I'm sorry your candidate can only pull 1% of the vote in his own party's primary. That's gotta sting.

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It's ok. I already know he can't win. I support him on principle- it is a bit sad to see how well actual conservative ideals fare in the personality-obsessed, media driven electoral process. Sad, but pretty much expected.

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And I'm also sorry you can't vote for a third Bush term.

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I'm not. I only voted for him last time because Kerry was so completely feckless. It's more sad commentary that Bush still could actually look tempting compared to some of our current GOP candidates. :shame:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

It's ok. I already know he can't win. I support him on principle- it is a bit sad to see how well actual conservative ideals fare in the personality-obsessed, media driven electoral process. Sad, but pretty much expected.

I'm not. I only voted for him last time because Kerry was so completely feckless. It's more sad commentary that Bush still could actually look tempting compared to some of our current GOP candidates. :shame:

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I liked Thompson's politics - I just didn't think that he was presidential material. Not only because he doesn't "look like a pres", but because his personality seems to relaxed for broad appeal. He also looks really unhealthy.

I felt that Romney had a youthful exuberance (for a 60 year old man in particular) and his history outside of politics was interesting and strong. It is one of the reasons I don't like teachers who went into teaching right out of college. I would rather someone who had gotten things done and THEN gone into teaching. They tend to have more grounded ideas and a more insightful knowledge of the real world that everybody else lives in.

Just me - but I do like Thompson.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

The real point is that he's not campaigning on what he supports. He's campaigning on nebulous "change" while not mentioning any specifics when he can help it. I seriously doubt the majority of his supporters have any real idea of what he supports. This is why we call him the "feel good" candidate. I don't like seeing candidates skate to success on empty rhetoric- I'd lump Huckabee in with this as well.

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:yes:

Lemur, I never said Obama didn't have a clue what he was doing, nor any ideas for "change".

What I dislike so much about the man is that he never actually talks about this "change". He just keeps spewing it out like it is well known what he is going to do. He takes the extreme populist route instead of actually trying to explain to his followers, on occasion, how he will accomplish change.

Most of the people I ask about Obama say they want "Change". I ask them, what will he "change"? They are usually at a struggle for words at that point.

I'm sure there are many people who whole heartily believe in what Obamba says, but there are also many who are just following Obama for the new "flavor".

Good Debate tonight. Thompson did very well. Romney did very well.

Huckabee finally got blasted.

If there's one thing this primary needs, it's better rap music. The Huckabee mix is not-so-good. Ron Paul's mix is marginally better, but it ain't what the kids would call "kickin." And the Mike Gravel rap? Scary stuff.

Most disappointingly, I couldn't find a single Mitt Romney rap, which speaks to a real hip-hop deficit in his campaign. The best I could find was the Stormin' Mormon rap, which isn't even about his candidacy, fer Pete's sake.

It's only fair that we demand more, and better rap from our candidates. The time is now. The moment is here. America is strong. Etc., etc., etc.

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

Good Debate tonight. Thompson did very well. Romney did very well.

Huckabee finally got blasted.

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No offense, but you must have seen a different "debate" than I did. I saw a series of campaign stump speeches, punctuated by a few 'zingers' at Mr. Paul.

I give a nod to Fred for the phrase: "America should be a nation of tall fences, and wide gates...". Nice slogan. :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Lemur

The funny thing is, the more vehemently you attack him, the more inclined I am to support him. Thanks for helping me!

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Sheesh, Lemur, get a grip. Xiahou's criticisms are sound, and you're coming off like some kid who's supporting Obama just because Xiahou doesn't like him.

Obama spouts the change thing because his positions are solidly left, and change sounds good to nearly everybody. He opposes the biggest free trade agreement, and the union demand for 'fair trade'. He believes climate change is "one of the greatest moral challenges of our generation". That the government should retool the factories of the big three automakers. Basically a bunch of far left policies across the board.

But you go ahead and say you're going to support him just because some guy on a forum points out his flaws. I don't see how you can honestly support him and claim to be a moderate and fiscal conservative.

CR

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

I don't see how you can honestly support him and claim to be a moderate and fiscal conservative.

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I could, with rather more justice, ask how you could support a Republican and claim to be a fiscal conservative.

Instead of just bashing right wingers in the backroom, I'd like to hear what policies of Obama you like, Lemur. I haven't been following the election coverage much, so I'm in the dark basically on all the runners positions, but Obama certainly doesn't smack of fiscal responsibility. Hillary seems more financially responsible and I know how you feel about her.

What is it you really like about Obama and McCain? Or just link me where you might've stated it before, I'm not up to speed on most backroom regulars positions since I've been a little busier than usual the last few weeks.

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Originally Posted by Proletariat

...Obama certainly doesn't smack...

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I think you have something there...

:laugh4:

What I like about Obama and McCain, for the most part, is their personal histories. Both of them have shown a capacity to work with people who disagree with them, a quality that I think is muy importante right now. Neither man shows signs of being a rabid partisan.

McCain has worked extensively with the Dems in the Senate. Yay. Obama convinced the conservative staff of the Harvard Law Review to elect him as editor. Yay. He also had a nine year run at the University of Chicago Law School, where his colleagues and students give him high marks. This suggests, to me, that he's a guy who is comfortable around genuine conservatives.

McCain is a war hero, something that deserves some respect right off the bat. As a man who has been to an actual shooting war, I trust him to handle Iraq rather better than the chickenhawks we've been saddled with for the last seven years. If a man like McCain says we need to do something, I'm going to give it a lot more weight than I would if Bush or Cheney say the same thing.

Obama has two things that are a benefit in a President: Charisma and organizational prowess. His charisma has been dissed and dismissed, but I think people forget that most of what a President does is talk. The ability to sway and convince people is paramount; moral suasion, as the Victorians would call it. When was the lat time you saw a crowd cheering hysterically for the idea of being polite and decent? Also note that his campaign speeches are full of calls for moderation and bipartisanship. And the crowds go wild. Think about it.

His organizational genius has been pretty much overlooked. Here's a guy who built up an utterly impressive campaign machine from nothing in a year. He's out-organized all of his competition so far. Hillary had the national Democratic machine lined up behind her, lest we forget. Obama is matching her, and he makes it look easy. This speaks to a pretty amazing ability to motivate, organize and lead a large, complex group of people. Looks good from here.

As for why I don't give much of a damn about the policy statements right now, I'll lay it on the line: I don't believe much of any of it. All of the candidates, with the exception of Ron Paul and Fred Thompson, are massaging their positions to appeal to whatever they think the "base" is. They're in primary mode, and I don't begrudge them, unless they get sloppy. (Mitt Romney's "I'd double Gitmo!" still stands out in my mind as an outrageous bit of pandering.)

Yup, I'm a free-trade kinda Lemur, and the pandering to the Unions bothers me on the Obama side, just as McCain's suggestion that we could reasonably maintain troops in Iraq indefinitely bothers me (the Middle East ain't Germany or Korea, pal). But I'm willing to look past individual policies with which I disagree for both men, because I believe they are sound of judgment. Neither man strikes me as a revolutionary or an ideologue. Both men have given evidence of being competent.

Moderation, sanity, prudence, competence, bipartisanship. That's what I'm looking for.

-edit-

But then again, Roseanne Barr disagrees with me.

I fully am throwing my weight behind Obama. My first vote for president will go to a half black muslim...God bless America:smash:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I want Puall but whatev

Ah, nice write up, Lemur. The bipartisan thing is something I am too wary of, tho. I truly bought, hook line and sinker the 'uniter, not a divider' track record and shpiel GWB pushed in 2000. After getting hosed there, it's no longer something I put stock in.

I just don't know anything about Obama, other than that him being elected would renew South Africans respect for America, and McCain seems like an okay guy. And I think I'm about as forceful as an advocate there is for a CiC with genuine military experience, he still comes across as a maverick looney.

Unfortunately for me, I don't like anyone from this crop. I'm still thinking I'll vote for Hillary just because I'm angry. Angry in the way that running a redlight, bashing one's forehead against a wall, or stubbing a toe can be soothing.

:wall:

Ohoh, this is big. :end:

I mean I just came across a convincing Facebook group about Obama being the antichrist when I noticed someone posted a link to a video and now it's all so clear, Hillary will win.
Yes, basically Bush is the false prophet, he will be followed by the whore of Babylon, Hillary, who will pave the way for the antichrist, Ron Paul. :fainting:

Well, there'a lot of supporting evidence like a number code that turns his name into 666, him being the brother of bush Senior and son of Hitler's successor as well as the prophecies that the world will end in 2012(mayan calendar, remember?) and some kids who were told by aliens what would happen. Not to forget a guy who worked in area 51 and knows the whole conspiracy. :sweatdrop:
And I only watched the first 13 of 30 minutes....

Ah well, anyone who is interested in this ehm, video of truth, can go here.

Now we can only hope that Hillary won't win but then we're left with Obama who may be the antichrist as well and if it's not him I once read it's Putin. :fainting:

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Originally Posted by Husar

Ohoh, this is big. :end:

I mean I just came across a convincing Facebook group about Obama being the antichrist when I noticed someone posted a link to a video and now it's all so clear, Hillary will win.
Yes, basically Bush is the false prophet, he will be followed by the whore of Babylon, Hillary, who will pave the way for the antichrist, Ron Paul. :fainting:

Well, there'a lot of supporting evidence like a number code that turns his name into 666, him being the brother of bush Senior and son of Hitler's successor as well as the prophecies that the world will end in 2012(mayan calendar, remember?) and some kids who were told by aliens what would happen. Not to forget a guy who worked in area 51 and knows the whole conspiracy. :sweatdrop:
And I only watched the first 13 of 30 minutes....

Ah well, anyone who is interested in this ehm, video of truth, can go here.

Now we can only hope that Hillary won't win but then we're left with Obama who may be the antichrist as well and if it's not him I once read it's Putin. :fainting:

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My money is on Hillary being the anti-Christ herself. Why not? JC was a dude - Hillary is a she-male harpy.

If the glove fits.

I firmly believe Hillary will win. I think I read it in the book of Revelation while I was perusing through it the other evening. She will be here on the last days, why would she not be president in the mean time? Think of all of the souls she could crush!

Armageddon,
Gnashing of teeth '08




P.s.- Kucinich has spent the funds to begin a re-count in NH because he believes that there were serious voter irregularities by Hillary supporters. I would be inclined to agree that it was very strange that Hillary won due to the sheer number of polls that had such a different slant.

I'm just glad a Republican didn't do it!

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Originally Posted by Lemur

I could, with rather more justice, ask how you could support a Republican and claim to be a fiscal conservative.

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You'll notice I am very against Huckabee, and support Fred Thompson.

Way to dodge the question though.

I see your reasons for supporting Obama, even if I disagree with them. Organization and the like are nice, but Romney definitely has that, and he's more economically conservative than McCain.

CR

McCain, McCain, McCain. I wanna see a good honest no-nonsense American in the Oval Office.

Giuliani's one trick pony rhetoric is starting to get on my nerves. Yes, I do remember 911. Yes, he did well. No, he was not spectacular.

Romney reminds me more and more of a used car salesman. Untrustworthy.

Huckabee.... raise my taxes AND and beat me with The Bible at the same time? No thanks.

Thompson... I never understood how he got any support to begin with. The guy is absolutely uninspiring and makes an impression of a potential do-nothing president.

Hillary... not a fan of hers by any stretch, but she is the one of the lesser evils.

Edwards is an ambulance chaser. That alone is enough for me to never consider him regardless of what he has to say. Literally, I have never listened to his speeches, and never will.

and finally, The Obamination. IMHO this guy is a loose cannon, and God knows where he might take our foreign policy. I do not trust him one bit and wopuld gladly pick *ugh* Huckabee or *ugh* Thompson over him. Those two sound less harmful.

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Originally Posted by rvg

and finally, The Obamination. IMHO this guy is a loose cannon

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Nani...?

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

Nani...?

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Que?

He wants you to explain the "loose cannon" part...

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Originally Posted by kamikhaan

He wants you to explain the "loose cannon" part...

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Here's one link to support my claim that Obama is a nutjob.

http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/rush/070221

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Originally Posted by rvg

Here's one link to support my claim that Obama is a nutjob.

http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/rush/070221

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You *can't* be serious. A quick look at the article reveals a weak attempt at character assassination with extremely disjointed logic (along the same lines as Clinton's team criticizing Obama's first grade essay if you ask me). A more serious look at the site reveals it to belong to an organization that professes a clear partisan support for Alan Keyes, who's probably the real nutjob here.

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

You *can't* be serious. A quick look at the article reveals a weak attempt at character assassination with extremely disjointed logic (along the same lines as Clinton's team criticizing Obama's first grade essay if you ask me). A more serious look at the site reveals it to belong to an organization that professes a clear partisan support for Alan Keyes, who's probably the real nutjob here.

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I don't care whom the author supports. The only thing that matters is that fact that Obama *does* indeed attend that crazy church. Drawing conclusions from that fact does not depend on the author's opinion.

Obama's half white. I don't think we have to worry about a black Nazi movement upon his election.

Actually Antiochus III, it was his Kindergarten essay.

No, seriously, he's been planning this since Kindergarten...wait...everyone's laughing....HAHAHA, we were kidding. Let me cry.

The site made Ron Paul's fiscal ideas look sane, and it's rabid conservatism is scary. I also don't know if I trust a man whose passion seems to be music and guitar restoration.

I think that McCain might ride his popularity wave through.
Evidently Obama forced the African-American community into outrage.

Prediction....
Republican
1. McCain
2. Romney
3. Huckabee

Democrat
1. Obama
2. Hillary
3. Kucinich

This is the kind of thing I like about McCain:

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"I had to give some straight talk," McCain said. "Jobs are leaving the state of Michigan. They have left and will not come back, but we're going to create jobs, we're going to create a new economy. This is the smartest technological place in America. We have the smartest people here. We can do it. We can create jobs here."

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link
His willingness to actually tell people the hard facts is quite refreshing in politics. Similarly, in Iowa, he came out against subsidies for ethanol. In comparison, Romney is promising to somehow restore the domestic auto industry. :shrug:

There's still a lot I don't like about McCain, but he does have some good qualities.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

His willingness to actually tell people the hard facts is quite refreshing in politics. Similarly, in Iowa, he came out against subsidies for ethanol. In comparison, Romney is promising to somehow restore the domestic auto industry. :shrug:

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Indeed, this is one of his most appealing qualities to me. (Not of course, that my opinion counts :beam: )

I don't, for example, agree with his views on Iraq, but he has clearly thought the matter through and maintains his viewpoint even in the teeth of volatile public opinion. It would have been easy for him to go with the prevailing hostility last year when his campaign was dying, but he stuck to what he believes.

That's got to be worth a great deal in a president - as long as it doesn't become stubbornness, as in the current incumbent.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

This is the kind of thing I like about McCain:
link
His willingness to actually tell people the hard facts is quite refreshing in politics. Similarly, in Iowa, he came out against subsidies for ethanol. In comparison, Romney is promising to somehow restore the domestic auto industry. :shrug:

There's still a lot I don't like about McCain, but he does have some good qualities.

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That was a political answer in line with his previous answers. "Straight talker" A large portion of people in Michigan know cars. They have built and marketed them for years. Many of them want the industry back.

As Global economies level out and as we can find ways to build cars here more efficiently - many of those jobs may return. It would be in our interest to have a strong vehicle manufacturing center again.

Of course other jobs will be created in other avenues of the economy, but never write one particular type of job off, Especially when people want to do that job and employers want to hire them - The hurdle is the cost of production.


http://www.michigandersforromney.com/

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FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
CONTACT: Romney Press Shop (857) 288-6390

Ypsilanti, MI – Today, outside the General Motors Willow Run plant, Governor Romney held a media availability to address the indefinite lay-off of 200 GM workers that was just announced yesterday. Tragically, announcements like this have become all too typical in Michigan today. Below are excerpts of Governor Romney's remarks:

"The reason that I came here today is because General Motors announced today that they are laying-off another 200 people from this facility."

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"This is not something which is designed just to get things back on track as part of a strategy to re-build and grow. This is instead an indication of a long-term slide in the automotive industry, the domestic automotive industry. America is not buying fewer cars. Instead, we're seeing the domestic automobile industry continue to slide.

"And as year after year goes by, more and more layoffs occur and more plants are closed, the question is, 'Where's Washington?' You hear some say that these are jobs that are just going away and we better get used to it. But where does it stop? Is there a point at which someone says, 'You know, that's enough'? Or are we going to let the entire automobile industry, domestic manufactured automotive industry, disappear and just say, 'Well, that was tough, that's just the way it is'?

"That's not what I believe. I believe it's important to preserve manufacturing in this country and to preserve the automobile industry, including the domestic automobile industry. I will work together with labor, with management, with the leaders of the political structure here in Michigan and in Washington to strengthen the automotive sector, the domestic automotive sector and the state of Michigan. It is inexcusable to me to see these jobs going away again and again and again.

"I do believe that policies to invest in research and technology, basic science and research to develop the products of the future can help stimulate and re-build this industry. I believe also in a savings plan to reduce the burden on the American people so that we can afford products of the future...

"And I also believe that Washington is doing too much anvil throwing. The first CAFE program was a huge burden on the domestic manufacturing of automobiles. The next CAFE program promises to do the same thing, and what help has been associated with it? It's almost like an unfunded mandate – a major change, a major burden on the automotive industry and then Washington saying, 'Good luck Detroit, try to keep up.'

"Likewise, Senator Lieberman, Senator McCain proposed a unilateral cap and trade program on carbon emissions. Look, we all agree that there should be a global effort to reduce carbon emissions. But if you place that burden just on the U.S., you make the U.S. less competitive. You make it more expensive to manufacture here, not only automobiles, but everything that we manufacture. And so we need to have policies that are designed to strengthen our economy, strengthen our competitiveness, make sure that America can compete in the automotive industry and in others. And as President, if I'm fortunate enough to have that job, I will not rest while Detroit continues to see layoff after layoff after layoff. My heart goes out to the 200 people who are laid off from this facility or were announced to be laid off from this facility. And I want to make sure that this doesn't just keep on happening year after year and year with Washington saying, 'So what?'"

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