Drugs in the Netherlands

Definately arguing for provenance.

Drug policy at the moment is based on moralising, hypocracy and denial. The US leads the world in the war on drugs and yet is the biggest consumer (sorry to bash you lot again - but your government is openly hostile and obstructive to any attempts at a different solution).

We need a policy based on harm minimisation.

The problems we have with illegal drugs are:
- Crime to fund habits (product of prohibition not the drugs themselves)
- Criminal gangs profitting (product of prohibition not the drugs themselves)
- Health problems caused by drugs, contaminated drugs, poor doseage control (partly product of prohibition not the drugs themselves)
- Social exclusion lack of routes to rehab and support (partly product of prohibition not the drugs themselves)

No, they cry, just think of all the people who will go and take drugs if they are allowed to! We would be condoning it.
Well no. I don't go scuba diving even though it's legal. I wouldn't take crack if someone gave it to me.

Also people completely ignore the truth that drugs are currently everywhere. Anyone on this board could go and get pretty much whatever they wanted with a day or so of asking around. And after that first day it would probably take a lot less time. Prohibition is merely a moral fig leaf to say "this isn't happening because of us - We don't approve". Rather than government taking responsibility for managing the situation, they prefer to ignore a difficult truth about our societies. Journalists are even worse. They really piss me off. Happy to write the same old guff, yet at the weekends they all have a straw up their noses.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

We need a policy based on harm minimisation.

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Prohibiting is a policy to minimalise it as well, you can't beat it but you can fight it no? Trying to destroy the supply of what is bad is just as much a sound strategy as allowing what is less harmfull, depending on the country. You can say that you are allowed to shim with sharks without the government caring but people swimming with sharks isn't a part of a bigger problem. Drugs isn't just a substance it is also a sub-culture and some will not use it, either way.

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

Doing well, thanks. True, not a bunch of insight into US elections yet - it's early days. Two things seem clear:
1) the next leader won't be GWB
2) the next leader will be a current Senator or former state Governor. Any outsiders haven't gained a foothold.

So: back to Dutch drugs. (Or are we arguing the provenance of various drugs now?).

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:idea2: We could talk about Obama's drug use. :jumping:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Prohibiting is a policy to minimalise it as well, you can't beat it but you can fight it no? Trying to destroy the supply of what is bad is just as much a sound strategy as allowing what is less harmfull, depending on the country.

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That's plain nonsense. Just like your belief that only Dutch people are mature enough to handle decriminalised drugs.

You yourself take a drug that you believe to be harmless. A drug that personally I wouldn't touch with a bargepole.

I don't agree with the soft drugs ok, hard drugs ban idea. Personally although I like to smoke weed now and again, I don't think that it is that important to legalise it. It is far more pressing that we provide heroin and cocaine users with a clean supply, and thereby stop thousands of crimes, take millions (billions?) out of the hands of gangsters and get people treatment that they need.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

:idea2: We could talk about Obama's drug use. :jumping:

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I imagine that all the candidates are drug users of one sort or another. As, no doubt are you Vladimir.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Prohibiting is a policy to minimalise it as well, you can't beat it but you can fight it no? Trying to destroy the supply of what is bad is just as much a sound strategy as allowing what is less harmfull, depending on the country. You can say that you are allowed to shim with sharks without the government caring but people swimming with sharks isn't a part of a bigger problem. Drugs isn't just a substance it is also a sub-culture and some will not use it, either way.

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Prohibition is a drug policy that doesn't work. As you (seem to) say, some people are going to use drugs whether or not they are illegal. Making drugs illegal just funds organizations that undermine both the legal economy and society at large, not to mention removing legal regulations on drugs. Removing these regulatory systems inevitably leads to a system of production akin to the illegal alcohol producers of 1920's America, where standardized production techniques that ensured safe alcoholic beverages gave way to bathtub gin and backwoods stills, many of which produced alcohol that was so lethal that one drink of it could kill almost instantly. In addition, Marijuana's illegal status turns what could be a huge source of tax revenue (which could at least pay for its own regulatory systems at a break-even pace) into a giant drain on the government's budget.

So, yeah... fighting it is just... silly.

And Idaho: :stare: Watch it. I am a print journalism major. And I damn sure ain't no coke head.

Edit: whoops... little slow on the draw...

Idaho raised a point i had been thinking of.. alot of the problems to do with drugs are due to the prohibtion and these could be controlled through the goverment controlling and selling.

Think of the money!!

all the money wasted, police time, jail cells, the user could be less productive with a record, wasted time at customs and all the money that dealers make that goes to unfriendly sources. We could also make money by taxing these goods.

Thank you to all contributors. We had our presentation today. It went well, and the contributions from this thread (and from Dutch Guy) were very helpful.

Personally, I think the Dutch model is among the most rational in the world. I think marijuana should be decriminalized and regulated immediately. While I'm less sure of my footing in terms of 'hard drugs,' I tend to think eventual decriminalization and regulation would likely be the best solution there, as well.

Overall, I consider the 'War on Drugs' among the most epic failures of US policy in recent years. I also think a change of tune will be difficult for our government for the same reason there is so much resistance to improved relations with Cuba: after so many years of bold assertions of absolute certainty, a change of policy would be acutely embarrassing. There's an inertia of morality and reputation standing in the way of rational response.

Ajax

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Originally Posted by Idaho

I imagine that all the candidates are drug users of one sort or another. As, no doubt are you Vladimir.

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I'm high on life thank you very much!

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Originally Posted by Idaho

That's plain nonsense. Just like your belief that only Dutch people are mature enough to handle decriminalised drugs.

You yourself take a drug that you believe to be harmless. A drug that personally I wouldn't touch with a bargepole.

I don't agree with the soft drugs ok, hard drugs ban idea. Personally although I like to smoke weed now and again, I don't think that it is that important to legalise it. It is far more pressing that we provide heroin and cocaine users with a clean supply, and thereby stop thousands of crimes, take millions (billions?) out of the hands of gangsters and get people treatment that they need.

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Why should a country take away its citizens freedom unless it has too? You might think its fine to just keep it the way it is because "its not important enough" to go through the hassle of legalising it. But theres people in jail or having their life ruined by smoking a little harmless weed.

P.S: I wrote this while completely blazed, sorry if it makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by holybandit

P.S: I wrote this while completely blazed, sorry if it makes no sense.

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:shame:

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Originally Posted by Idaho

That's plain nonsense. Just like your belief that only Dutch people are mature enough to handle decriminalised drugs.

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Didn't say that, I said it isn't a magic pill that works for everyone, just like democracy I guess.

Yeah well everyone on this board has seen enough of your 'destiny of races' take on the world.

Holybandit - what I meant was that cannabis didn't have as devastaing an effect on public health and crime as the other drugs.

I think decriminalisation is disasterous. Drugs not controlled but still in the hands of gangs. No real responsibility taken for them and their effects.

Awwwwwwwwwwwww an angry lefty how absolutily adorable! Are you radicalising Idaho?

Let's stick to the topic at hand rather than posting personal provocations.

Thank you kindly.

:bow:

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Originally Posted by Idaho

It is far more pressing that we provide heroin and cocaine users with a clean supply, and thereby stop thousands of crimes, take millions (billions?) out of the hands of gangsters and get people treatment that they need.

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In the big cities over here they provide methadon for heroine addicts (or even the real stuff for those who are really far gone), the idea being that since some of those people will never stop you might as well do some damage control. It seems only rational to me, though I don't know how well it works in practice.

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

Let's stick to the topic at hand rather than posting personal provocations.

Thank you kindly.

:bow:

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He never has had many sandwiches to bring to the picnic - let the boy have his fun :laugh4:

Oh ouch I won't be able to sit all week, the lady's must love that thing

Very well.


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