There should be a law that anytime this happens, the media must forever preface the shooter's name with "The pathetic impotent loser known as... "
Who knows, might even dissuade someone.
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There should be a law that anytime this happens, the media must forever preface the shooter's name with "The pathetic impotent loser known as... "
Who knows, might even dissuade someone.
colt 45's should be standard issue to college students when theyre in class.
No a better gun should be given , then again if they all had guns in class would it lead to more or less shootings .Quote:
colt 45's should be standard issue to college students when theyre in class.
Surely 4 school shootings in one week is sufficient under existing laws .
But at least they had some variety , one university , one tech college , one high school and one junior high ,...damn get them youngsters to work , they missed out on doing an elementary school shooting ....oh well maybe next week eh .
Yeah, and 50 bullets so they have enough ammunition to kill all the maniacs that are after them and trying to kill us all :balloon2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jkarinen
Alsorespwn pointsautomatic ammunition dispensers so they can get more once thedeathmatchattack of the evil killers has started.
On the plus side, that makes the job of army recruiters easier.
No one colt 45. with one round
Thats all you need, we dont need anymore major school shootings. If I was there just bam headshot!! then I'd be like "Yeh, I'm that good..."
If the media was restricted to saying "and in other news, there was a school shooting today in _______. Check to make sure your kids are safe if you're in that region. And now to Bob with the weather..." it would probably get rid of most of the attention-seeking murderers.
Hmm, turns out a friend of mine had a friend who was there when the gunner attacked. Luckily he's ok.
And an excellent analysis of the situation Lemur.
I was talking with someone recently about the violent, often famous, events that have happened around me here in San Diego. I was surprised the long list I came up with once I started.Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly
I was a schoolmate of Brenda (I hate Mondays) Spencer. Her shooting spree happened 5 minutes distance (by car) from my house. I saw the emergency vehicles from my school bus.
I was a friend and schoolmate of a girl who was picked up near my home when she ran out of gas and was murdered.
An Eagle Scout, who had gone to my junior high school, axe murdered his family, burned the house, and committed suicide, 3 minutes from my house.
One of my close friends was stabbed to death at a party, mistaken for his jerk brother. 1 minute from my house.
The same scenario happened to my cousin's friend and neighbor, though with a gunshot through the door as he answered it. 10 minutes from my house.
A multiple high school shooting happened a few years back in Santee, 10 minutes from my house.
In the same year, another multiple shooting at San Miguel High School, 15 minutes from my house.
(Edit: it was the same month and the school's name is Granite Hills).
Many years ago a man walked into a McDonald's in San Ysidro and shot a bunch of people, then himself. 25 minutes from my home.
Before I'm accused by you guys, I did none of these. My city is known for its relatively low crime rate, especially the neightborhood I grew up in. But headline-making murders are a regular occurrance here.
The US has far, far more multiple shootings and peacetime rampages than any other nation on Earth, in fact, more than all of them combined, I'd say. I put this in the long "negative" column when people ask me if I love the US. I'd say there's something fundamentally wrong with this country, wouldn't you?
Perhaps. Why do our people seem to partake in this sort of senless murder? I dont know. Maybe it is the way our young men are raised to be stoic emotionless men which cuases much more problems than just these shootings. The acceptence of violence as a regular an occurnce. A gnereal detachment from the sancatity/gift that is human life. Personally I blame the lack of socialzation. In the last 50 years actually going out and talking to people has been severly diminshed and now people seem to lack simple social skills and even worse they are ridculed for it. We just need to sit and talk things will change oh how they will chNGE.
Well it's also somewhat bigger :idea2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tachikaze
RussiaQuote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
and canada areis some what bigger but how often do they get school shootings?, Russia makes the dam AK47 you'd think they'd have more (Any russians to confirm this please?), but of course they under yuris mind control!
WARNING: Very Dodgy joke under spoiler!
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
We are bigger, smaller population thank God, but we do have our share of school shootings. Toronto is turning into LA and Vancouver has a serious gun problem as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abokasee
We need some serious law & order happening.
In the UK our population is roughly a 1/5 of USA's and iirc we haven't had a school shooting here for years!
Last one i remember was a good 3-5 years ago somewhere up in scotland and it was some middle aged guy rather than a student.
so this leads me to a question, rather than a statement, is it the availability of guns that is the problem ? so if UK had as many guns we'd have roughly a school shooting for every 5 you have.
Or is there something different about US kids/students to uk kids/students ?
we have pretty much the same culture, watch the same movies play the same games listen to the same music, and even most of your tv makes it over here.
If we think about various factors that lead to people doing these kind of things, low self esteem, bullied, upbringing, potential future life and access to guns.
In the UK we have plenty of people who are bullied have low self esteem and think thier futureless, i can only guess upbringings would be similar so is it just the access to guns which is the cause of all the school shootings in USA or is there some other US only factor i have missed ?
Note: California has more gun control than most of the United States.
Overall nationwide murder and violent crime are dropping.
In Britain, as I understand, the opposite is happening.
I think Tachi is far off in his claim the US has more shootings than the rest of the world combined.
50 years ago in the US, High school kids would bring guns to school to go hunting afterwards, have the school hold them during the school day.
It's not gun availability. It's society, and I think the best remarks on it were in the first page of this thread.
CR
Easy access to guns doesn't help, but there are a myriad of cultural factors involved as well, including, of course, the gun culture itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly
Life has become too crowded, too fast, too focussed on immediate gratification, and kids today, who are far more exposed to the real world than kids were in my day, see (more of) the violence and corruption and lies and deceit and profiteering going on all around them by the same people who are telling them to behave themselves. Kids simply don't trust anyone anymore. Worst of all is the endemic failure of people in authority to take responsibility for their actions. Kids see this very clearly. Mix this with overburdened parents and a general lack of discipline and respect for themselves and others and you have the fuse ready to light. Also, more people means more mental illness and less the means to deal with it adequately.
The easy availability of guns is simply the match to the fuse.
Be it the US or Canada or elsewhere, it's the same pattern I think.
Husar here make a joke of it. But it can be truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
I mean, are people influenced by videogames?
The last year, I saw this documental "Bowling for Columbine". Michael Moore shows how are guns placed in society.
But, two months ago, I saw "The Videogame era", a serie of documentals about the life of the videogames, and they point out that the kids who shot in Columbine were playing teh old Doom.
Now, I invite you to discuss videogames and shootings.
I think that Lemur, SFTS, and Beirut are all correct in their analysis of these shootings.
Well done on winning your debate on gun control CR, but please don't use Britain as a data point proving your argument. In Britain, gun-related crime is fairly insignificant, certainly where bystanders or others who don't own guns are concerned. There is some gun crime between gangs, but we don't really care about that as long as it doesn't spill over. The real hardcore who get their hardware illegally know where the profits and safety margins are, and they don't involve guns, except when fighting for turf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Note: California has more gun control than most of the United States.
Overall nationwide murder and violent crime are dropping.
In Britain, as I understand, the opposite is happening.
I think Tachi is far off in his claim the US has more shootings than the rest of the world combined.
50 years ago in the US, High school kids would bring guns to school to go hunting afterwards, have the school hold them during the school day.
It's not gun availability. It's society, and I think the best remarks on it were in the first page of this thread.
I don't disagree with most of this but what i am paying paticular attention to in this topic is school shootings, even if you were to call the equivilent in the UK stabbings we still don't have kids go into school and try and knife a bunch of people before taking thier own life, we tend to have individual students stabbed (mostly outside of school) but no-one goes in and just does some random killing.
Thats is why i ask what is the reason for this ? all i can think of is the availability to guns and reasons linked to this, we don't tend to have serial killer teens who go into thier school (anywhere near as much even considering population difference, i can't actually think of one of the top of my head)
Now we have teens commit violent crime, stab kids outside school and rarely inside school, they are perhaps of a similar personality to the kids who stab other kids over here, so what is the difference apart from the guns ? (im not putting it down to the guns but i am asking what is the difference if its not the guns then)
None of your points actually address this... yes crime may be rising in UK and dropping in US but US still is the one with problem, society is pretty much the same in UK or US but the US is still the one with the problem.
California's extra gun control doesn't mean too much in the case of school shootings (as i guess the students werent criminals before the shooting and they probably had thier parents guns ? though cr's comment on kids taking guns in makes me wonder where they thier guns) besides even if California had a total ban on guns it'd be alot easier to smuggle across C's state border than get them into the UK
50 years ago in the US, High school kids would bring guns to school to go hunting afterwards, have the school hold them during the school day.
This would make it seem that gun availability hasn't increased but maybe society has changed since then, but the UK has changed with the US an the UK doesn't have these problems, so still i am looking for the difference apart from guns as to why US has this problem and UK doesn't, all your point states is that you didn't have the problem before.
Thats all well and good but i am trying to figure out why US has this problem but not the UK.
think Tachi is far off in his claim the US has more shootings than the rest of the world combined.
If were talking specifically school shootings i would say its a pretty rare event in europe, not sure of other continents.
Easy access to guns doesn't help, but there are a myriad of cultural factors involved as well, including, of course, the gun culture itself.
Of course but the UK is subject to all these factors, except the gun one.
Life has become too crowded, too fast, too focussed on immediate gratification, and kids today, who are far more exposed to the real world than kids were in my day, see (more of) the violence and corruption and lies and deceit and profiteering going on all around them by the same people who are telling them to behave themselves. Kids simply don't trust anyone anymore. Worst of all is the endemic failure of people in authority to take responsibility for their actions. Kids see this very clearly. Mix this with overburdened parents and a general lack of discipline and respect for themselves and others and you have the fuse ready to light. Also, more people means more mental illness and less the means to deal with it adequately.
The easy availability of guns is simply the match to the fuse.
So if we have all these problems which create the fuse (and the bomb for sake of this analogy) In US and UK ect. surely it is best to remove the availability of matches as that is the difference between UK and US less matches.
Does that mean Beirut that you think the reason for school shootings in US and not UK is guns ?
Guns are part of the equation. You can't shoot someone without a gun.Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly
Guns are not the problem, but they are certainly part of the problem. You can't have a kid bring a high-capacity semi-automatic handgun to school and say that gun itself is not a problem. But violence does not require a gun, a gun simply makes violence easier, certainly if one is intent on doing violence to many people quickly.
There are many schools that have problems with violence that does not involve guns. Bullying, beatings, sexual assaults, these things happen all too often at schools everywhere. Violence is violence. The difference is gun violence changes it from one against one, or many against one, to one against many. Also, of course, there are fatalities involved. But that one person dies and another suffers physical and/or emotional scars from other sorts of violence can be a moot point to the person who has been hurt and continues to suffer, possibly for years.
Was trying to get at that earlier because I believe the way we handle that leads to excesses such as these. We just have to let that 'happen', it will be there anyway for the rest of their lifes, but that rather innocent social behaviour is too much repressed, kids will be kids so let them be it. Saying in Holland, a cornered cat makes odd jumps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
But!!! The people who go to shoot people have ways of getting guns. So how do you solve a problem when Person A has a gun and you don't? Person B has to be owning a gun to. Like My da always saidQuote:
Originally Posted by Pat Karinen
There might be a thousand ways to stop school shootings. Arming the students and staff is not one of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jkarinen
The end is nigh. Legalized handgun carry at school.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/20/cnn...l#cnnSTCOther1
Absolutely, without question, one of the most idiotic, asinine, uncivilized, backwards, brick-headed, blisteringly stupid things in existence.
The funny thing about your over-reaction is that this isn't a new regulation- it's been allowed for some time and the kids* haven't been blowing each other away. It's almost as though normal, law-abiding citizens don't become criminals and go on killing sprees just because they carry guns- weird, I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beirut
*I know I said "kids" but these are adults- it's worth pointing out that the school in question is a University.
The question in my mind is: What's so "idiotic, asinine, uncivilized, backwards, brick-headed, blisteringly stupid" about it?
edit:
It's interesting to see that, according to their graphic, many other states do allow or are considering allowing it as well. They say Utah is the only state to allow it at all Universities, but I'd challenge them to point out the law where it's illegal in Pennsylvania. Concealed weapons licenses in PA have legal preemption over all municipal/local laws within the state and the only restrictions on the license are for federal property, courthouses, and k-12 schools. :shrug:
This argument about guns in school is too old to revisit for me, but I back what Beirut has said.
On the question of how widespread mass shootings are in US schools, why don't we have a challenge? Research how many shooting sprees have happened in the US and the rest of the world.
Here are the lists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_...able_Shootings
Notice something?
By the way, there are five in the first half of February of this year, all in the US.
Brilliant, Utah knows what its dong. I agree with it entirely. Beirut taking away guns only keeps the 'Victims' from having a fighting chance. If you were in a room with 999 other people, some guy walks on stage and whips out a gun. Every one in the room other than you is unarmed would you be that thousandth and final way to prevent the masacare? and imagine equiping all those students with pistols then even if you still believed that you couldnt fire the round, one of the other 999 students would. Guns don't cause school shootings, they atribute to the shooting part, but that could all be prevented by giving all the other students guns. I mean if some guy wants to go on a killing spree but he knows every one around him carries a gun, he will get one two or three shots off before he drops, thats alot better, in my opinion, than 30shots and on his last bullet offing himself.
Everyone won't have a gun, or his/her gun with him/her, or out of the holster etc. etc. If you move in with an SMG into a classroom where they're teaching arithmetic, I think you'll get a bodycount larger than what a 1st grader can count to just by the element of surprise, even if everybody "has" a revolver. So, equip all with SMGs, you may say. Good idea, then the school shooter comes with a machinegun or home-made explosives, and you're back where you started... or in an even worse position.
Yep. And let's look at the most gun-hungry countries, like switzerland for example, what a terrible place with these mountains and fresh air and sadly the swiss. If it is a cultural thing in america, would banning guns prevent them from grabbing mommy's kitchen knife, good luck banning that one and enjoy a good meal. What is the problem if it is just laying there, if you ever need it it is because you need it. If you trust someone enough to allow him to have a knife then why not a gun?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jkarinen