Kosovo declares independence from Serbia

It's mutual fear, and the Russians want to ensure that they aren't seen as weak. They're sticking up for their Slavic friends because they want to poke the Western world in the eye. It's posturing by the Russians, so that we don't forget about the Ursidae.

I feel that Russia, unless it's willing to send arms or some-such to Serbia to prevent this split, is going to decry this in the Security Council, in the newspapers, on the web, on TV, but in the end, they will try to settle it as favorably for them and for Serbia as possible.

I don't think Russia will try too much violence, unless they feel sufficiently provoked, which, I hope, will not occur.

(Besides, Poland isn't technically putting missile defense systems right on the border with Russia, since I doubt Kaliningrad has any nuclear silos)

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Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

(Besides, Poland isn't technically putting missile defense systems right on the border with Russia, since I doubt Kaliningrad has any nuclear silos)

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Originally Posted by Wiki

In July 2007, Russian First Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov declared that if US-controlled missile defense systems were deployed in Poland that nuclear weapons may be deployed in Kaliningrad.

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It looks like Kaliningrad will only have nuclear silos if the missile shield is built. Oh, the irony...

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The way to win an atomic war is to make certain it never starts. ~Omar Bradley

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I wonder when they'll re-forge the Iron Curtain, Act II may soon end.

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Originally Posted by Big_John

ok, but even if this is so, how does an independent kosovo further US military interests? was serbia going to close the base or something?

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Base was built (and is still being built, AFAIK) after 1999, after the US led Nato agression on then FR Yugoslavia. I guess Serbian PM wanted to stress that he thought that it this was all planned even back then and all those events which culminated in Kosovo unilateral declaration of independence was because US wanted to further it's military and political interests in Europe and Balkans (with which I agree, mostly...)

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Base was built (and is still being built, AFAIK) after 1999, after the US led Nato agression on then FR Yugoslavia. I guess Serbian PM wanted to stress that he thought that it this was all planned even back then and all those events which culminated in Kosovo unilateral declaration of independence was because US wanted to further it's military and political interests in Europe and Balkans (with which I agree, mostly...)

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Paranoia.

A nice trait to have in someone who may start another genocide. Makes me feel safe...

Really, now? Well I guess people of the world feel very safe with American Dady watching over us, saving us from WMD in Iraq and saving Iraqi the trouble to drill for the oil themselves, And Serbs or Serbia didn't commit genocide at any point in the entire history. We were victims of one, if that's what you were trying to say...

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"Camp Bondsteel, the biggest “from scratch” foreign US military base since the Vietnam War is near completion in the Yugoslav province of Kosovo. It is located close to vital oil pipelines and energy corridors presently under construction, such as the US sponsored Trans-Balkan oil pipeline. As a result defence contractors—in particular Halliburton Oil subsidiary Brown & Root Services—are making a fortune.

In June 1999, in the immediate aftermath of the bombing of Yugoslavia, US forces seized 1,000 acres of farmland in southeast Kosovo at Uresevic, near the Macedonian border, and began the construction of a camp.

Camp Bondsteel is known as the “grand dame” in a network of US bases running both sides of the border between Kosovo and Macedonia. In less than three years it has been transformed from an encampment of tents to a self sufficient, high tech base-camp housing nearly 7,000 troops—three quarters of all the US troops stationed in Kosovo.

There are 25 kilometres of roads and over 300 buildings at Camp Bondsteel, surrounded by 14 kilometres of earth and concrete barriers, 84 kilometres of concertina wire and 11 watch towers. It is so big that it has downtown, midtown and uptown districts, retail outlets, 24-hour sports halls, a chapel, library and the best-equipped hospital anywhere in Europe. At present there are 55 Black Hawk and Apache helicopters based at Bondsteel and although it has no aircraft landing strip the location was chosen for its capacity to expand. There are suggestions that it could replace the US airforce base at Aviano in Italy.

According to Colonel Robert L. McClure, writing in the engineers professional Bulletin, “Engineer planning for operations in Kosovo began months before the first bomb was dropped. At the outset, planners wanted to use the lessons learned in Bosnia and convinced decision makers to reach base-camp ‘end state’ as quickly as possible.”

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entire text

PS Tribesy, you were right, it's the biggest built from scratch.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

We were victims of one, if that's what you were trying to say...

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You're right, no albanian civilian was ever gunned down by the serb forces. :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

You're right, no albanian civilian was ever gunned down by the serb forces. :dizzy2:

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FYI, there is a difference between "gunning down" and genocide...

Please, there's more than enough blame to go around

And there is more to discuss than this, so I'd appreciate it if we don't start what shouldn't be started.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

FYI, there is a difference between "gunning down" and genocide...

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I have my own definition for words. When dead civilians, who got killed solely because of their ethnicity, are shipped off to mass graves in trucks, I call it genocide.

Or do you perhaps have another term for what the serbs have done to the albanians?

EDIT: btw, neither Serbia nor Serbs has ever committed genocide? Then WHAT THE HELL do you call Srebrenica?

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Srebrenica

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Finally. Glad not everybdy here is braindead. :sweatdrop:
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Nor does everyone want to draw this down into a shouting match about genocide. Could we please get off this topic?

cuz genocides are nasty things that should be ignored.

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Originally Posted by Viking

cuz genocides are nasty things that should be ignored.

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cuz genocides are not directly relevant to the topic of this thread.

Kosovar Independence. Some are "for", some "against", some "no opinion". Return to topic, please.

There is currently a whole lot of mess going on about this, look what we have here, a europe devided because of something as small as Albania, few who recognise it and some that don't and a lot that shut up, exactly the horror-scenario that could lead to another european war, still want that unified european army? We have to back one of them no?

According to the New York Times: the US, UK & France have recognized Kosovo, with Germany coming soon.

Meanwhile, Reuters reports that Spain will not (recognize).

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Turkey jumped the bandwagon early. Pretending to be cautious by delaying it officially. Yet mass media (both the howling dogs of the military caste & bureaucratic elite and the call-girls of the government) are already cheering up.


edit to add LINK to the Turkey story. -Kukri

:bow: ― M.
.

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

cuz genocides are not directly relevant to the topic of this thread.

Kosovar Independence. Some are "for", some "against", some "no opinion". Return to topic, please.

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"Going off topic" is a highly relative term; I fail to see how this was more off topic than what's average here in the backroom.

https://img134.imageshack.us/img134/...0957928za3.jpg


Flagburning; nice fellows.


Edit: should've been in the previous post :whip:

That flag represents what's wrong with this chapter in the wider tale of Balkan history. Not that it's being burned, or that it's Albanian. But did anyone spot a single Kosovar flag during the independance marches? I frankly can't blame Serbs in Kosovo or Serbia for being uncomfortable with this. It just looks like power in Kosovo is being taken from Serbs and put into the hands of Albanians. I was under the impression that the purpose behind creating a sovereign Kosovo was to ease tensions. It isn't working so far.

Kosovo could set a dangerous precident for future ethnic minorities within a nation. Why do you think Canada and Spain are reluctant to sign? Because of Quebec and the Basque State respectively.

Pathetic, the failure of the Balkan states is Kosovo.
If The West truly recognises this then it's opened up a whole new can of worms, for what?
The West has consistently and idoitically picked out the Serbs in this conflict turning them into scapegoats for everything in the Balkans.
I don't know too much about this conflict however I know that there is always shooting from both sides, yet from watching BBC world and CNN I don't get that, I get "It's the Evil Serbs." Truly.

What the West and it's media have done is created a massivley resentful nation, more inclined to listen to Russia and Idiots.

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Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar

Russia and Idiots.

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Ouch.

That's probably the greatest tragedy, the lack of understanding. I don't really honestly understand the entire issue, but I've got a rudimentary understanding of it. Everyone else sees 'Kosovo declaring independence', and they immediately associate them with the American revolution, and it's easy to portray the Serbians as the 'British' (no offense to my friends across the pond). So you get a bunch of Americans riled up, then we throw in Russians, trying to bring order, and you get the great 'Commie Threat' of Russia, and now we're afraid the Ruskies are going to jump in and interject some Stalinism and Marxism.

Overall, it's a disaster that I wish to blame on the ________.

(P.S., Stephen Fry is an amazing actor)

Well, I hope some people see that the Great Satan is backing the Muslims, at least.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I have my own definition for words.

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That's great, you should write a dictionary...

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

When dead civilians, who got killed solely because of their ethnicity, are shipped off to mass graves in trucks, I call it genocide.

Or do you perhaps have another term for what the serbs have done to the albanians?

EDIT: btw, neither Serbia nor Serbs has ever committed genocide? Then WHAT THE HELL do you call Srebrenica?

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Mass graves are unfortunately common in an area where there is a bigger armed conflict cause there isn't always time, manpower, resources to bury them properly. The point here is not whether mass graves exist, but how did people in them die, and were they soldiers or civilians. And FYI the biggest mass grave in Kosovo is the grave of non-Albanians...

Srebrenica have alredy been discussed here. I don't suppose you're gonna believe the words of a serb nationalist like me, but at least take into account the words of Brennus, who is French, and who has actually been there.
I don't have anything to add to what I have already said in that thread, and you can see WHAT THE HELL I call Srebrenica there...

Another word what serbs have done to albanians is fighting terrorism. Unfortunately, I can't say Serbian police was much interested to prove without reasonable doubt that a particular albanian was a terrorist. But on the other hand a good portion of killed Albanian civilians were killed by KLA because they refused to assist either by actually joining the KLA, or by providing safe houses, money etc... Also, keep in mind that serbian police wasn't fighting an army. It was figting terrorist group. That means that there were no uniforms (actually there were but they weren't common), no documents, no strict chain of command, no standardized equipment and weaponry, no ID numbers etc... Most of the time KLA fighters were guys in civilian clothing given some training and a gun. When a person like that is killed, take away his gun and he becomes a "civilian casualty"...

Sorry for the offtopic. Call me paranoid, crazy, old-fashioned, but I have issues when someone use genocide and Serbia in the same sentence and I'm going to respond every time to that and similar claims, expecially when they come from a person who was 2000km away, and whose only knowledge comes from short versions of BBC/CNN reports...

On topic:
No real suprise on those who recognized it... What I am glad, though, is that most Balkan countries (Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania, Greece, Bosnia) said that they aren't going to recognize Kosovo. Croatia, Albania and Macedonia almost certainly will, Montenegro still undecided...

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Originally Posted by Justiciar

That flag represents what's wrong with this chapter in the wider tale of Balkan history. Not that it's being burned, or that it's Albanian. But did anyone spot a single Kosovar flag during the independance marches? I frankly can't blame Serbs in Kosovo or Serbia for being uncomfortable with this. It just looks like power in Kosovo is being taken from Serbs and put into the hands of Albanians. I was under the impression that the purpose behind creating a sovereign Kosovo was to ease tensions. It isn't working so far.

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Until 17th February this year there was no official Flag of Kosovo, so they used the Albanian one instead.

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Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

I'll put $50 on the Holy See.

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It was Afghanistan. 2nd was USA.

Why Vatican would did it first? Kosovo is not populated by Roman Catholics. :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

It's mutual fear, and the Russians want to ensure that they aren't seen as weak. They're sticking up for their Slavic friends because they want to poke the Western world in the eye. It's posturing by the Russians, so that we don't forget about the Ursidae.

I feel that Russia, unless it's willing to send arms or some-such to Serbia to prevent this split, is going to decry this in the Security Council, in the newspapers, on the web, on TV, but in the end, they will try to settle it as favorably for them and for Serbia as possible.

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Russia will blockade UDI of Kosovo in UN and every other organisation they can. Just like USA veto every negative resolution about Israel, now the situation will be opposite. Fair enough. :yes:
I wonder why is Spain against Kosovo UDI?

And why should Russia send weapons to Serbia? Both Russia and Serbia are for diplomatic and peaceful solution.

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Originally Posted by Big King Sanctaphrax

I wonder what the mostly Serbian regions in the north of Kosovo will do. Will they demand to be allowed to return to the bosom of Mother Serbia?

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Do you know that Albanians don't control some 30% of territory?

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Originally Posted by CountArach

A majority who are forced to live under a Government that does not represent them. The people of Montana have this. The Kosovars don't.

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And who are Kosovars? :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Viking

Until 17th February this year there was no official Flag of Kosovo, so they used the Albanian one instead.

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This flag Albanians will never accept except formally. Flag has the same colors as Bosnian and is similar to it.

Serbia started to call back ambassadors from countries which recognized Kosovo UDI.

Kosovo has everything to become new Palestine:
1. Unemployment over 50%.
2. 50% of population is young below 16 years.
3. There is no economy as 90% of goods are imported, mainly from Serbia.
4. Every young Albanian dream to fly on West and escape from misery.
5. Kosovo has huge lack of energy. Albanians can’t even produce enough power so they live under regular power restrictions. UNMIK has debt of 4 million Euros to pay for power Serbia sold in 2007.

How EU and USA think to raise the economy of USA? Will they donate billions of Euros and $ every year?

Symbolically Afghanistan 1st recognized Kosovo UDI as the 90% of opium/heroin production is there and Kosovo is major shipment route for distribution of heroin into Europe. It is nice [like would Borat said].

P.S.
In reality, Kosovo is partitioned.