Agreed. I was just introduced to this thread and wholeheartedly agree with the concept.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wytchfynder
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Agreed. I was just introduced to this thread and wholeheartedly agree with the concept.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wytchfynder
When it comes to the business decisions, I think it is rather SEGA who adopts these policies rather than CA because in the end it has to be part of a revenue plan from the mother-company that includes all subsidiaries.
Still, releasing the source code, even for a certain amount of cash, would equal a step in the right direction.
Just re-read the whole thread (partly to jostle the memory and partly cause it's now my job and work is a little slow ~;)).
Do we know who exactly has the rights to MTW? Does Sega/CA own them exclusively, or does Activision still have some say? My recently purchased STW off Amazon has the Sega logo on the box and on one of the opening screens, don't know about MTW. Either way, I doubt we are getting source. So what are the other options?
It's possible that CA has identified a problem with nVidia cards/drivers. Changing the MTW code to work around this will cost a lot of money to fix, and it would be a workaround, not a fix, so CA probably isn't willing to put forth that effort. CA doesn't and can't control the driver codebase for nVidia, so it's a no go. nVidia probably doesn't care (financially) either, it's possible that their drivers are coded in such a way that a change to fix MTW will affect too much else.
After thinking about it some, I think we need someone with code experience in DirectX, maybe someone who has been messing around with the nVidia Linux drivers. Create a wrapper lib with log/debug hooks for the Windows DirectX library, and see where the problems occur. Then try to rewrite the offending function(s) and offer up a aux DirectX library to get around the issue.
I'd be willing to put my real name to a petition if someone could draft one in such a way that it won't be ignored.Quote:
Originally Posted by edyzmedieval
Would it be one of those Online Petitions? (You know, how they have 'online petition signatures' on some special petition sites?)Quote:
Originally Posted by oz_wwjd
I'd assume so,but that's really up to whoever sets up the petition.Quote:
Originally Posted by vartan
As I've said earlier in the thread, I don't think CA recognise petitions - certainly not online ones. Regardless, talking about the petition won't get it done, someone needs to take the initiative and set one up.
:2cents:
But if the CA fan community connects to each other via the Internet (see TWC, the Guild, etc.), then how does one go about representing the community without use of the Internet?Quote:
Originally Posted by Caravel
That's a good question - but you're asking the wrong person.
Petitions are prohibited over at the .com (official CA) forums and have also been dismissed here in the past. I seriously don't think you'll have any luck with a petition.
:bow:
Precisely what I was thinking, because as far as I know, almost every game that has had its source code made open has been so by decision by developers, not via a petition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caravel
I'd be curious to know if a software guy at CA/Sega has actually looked into the nVidia problem. The company may not be willing to pay to rework the code/QA/patch, especially if the problem is with nVidia's implementation, but I wonder if they have identified the culprit calls. That knowledge might be useful for a community-led workaround, and wouldn't require the drastic step of source code release.
Sure, why should they not release it?
I voted yes, though I doubt a petition will have any effect.
I am a big time pc gamer. I have been playing pc games for over 15 years and I have hundreds of pc games. I am just getting into modding some games, although I find it very tedious. I dont know any programming languages and the source code would be useless to me.
Regarding editing the source code: I dont know why it would be illegal to change or modify something that I own. A law like this seems absurd and infringes on my freedoms as a United States Citizen. Furthermore if I buy something and improve it, I should have the right to distribute and even sell this product along with the improvements I made. This is actually the model for many American businesses. I suspect any jury would agree to this should someone decide to change a law or circumvent it.
I do not know what the penalties for breaking this technology law are. Surely there are much more heinous crimes. If I could modify the source code to improve any of my games I would do it and would gladly share my improvements to the community. In my opinion, CA and Sega should be more concerned with pirate torrents, where people can get their games without paying, then of people editing some file on a 5 year old game.
Except you don't actually own the code when you buy the game. You just own one license to play the game. Copyright is pretty complicated and, heck, there's a reason why we have so many specialized copyright lawyers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaiseric
EDIT: And in light of copyright laws, you aren't free to edit certain things, or at least edit and distribute the new versions as long as you don't own the rights to whatever is in question. I know I might go into law in a couple of years, but whatever it is, it certainly will NOT be copyright law. Sheesh, some complicated stuff for me! And btw, you're completely right about the law. The only way this can be avoided (this whole copyright entanglement), is if the laws were changed to make certain things possible that are impossible today. But as we all know, changing the law takes time and effort. Not an overnight, easy task. Definitely worth it most of the time, if it means better life for citizens.
Without a public release of the source code, the source falls under copyright. The object code (compiled and linked executable) is what is sold on the disk, along with the artwork/music/configuration files. The source remains the property of CA/Sega.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaiseric
If for some reason CA did release the source code, I imagine it would be covered under some form of license which would restrict how it could be distributed. Something along the lines of the GPL, you wouldn't be allowed to sell it, even if you modified it extensively.
Is that what the liscense agreements say when you click agree to install the game? I never read them, but I have to accept them to install the game. I guess if you get the game illegaly and bypass the agreement, you are free to modify the files?Quote:
Originally Posted by vartan
If its on my computer, its my property!!!
I wonder how well these laws are enforced? I think it would be easy to realease a mod via a torrent, that edits the source code. With all the illegal torrents out there, they would never find the host.
Piracy is easier committed than prevented. Hence why we still have piracy in some seas today. And where we don't have it or have reduced it greatly, we have actually spent (and still spend) lots of money to keep it that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaiseric
And yeah, you pretty much have to pay to play. I think it's what they call an End User License. And you own that license, correct. You don't own the code that eventuated that game, or anything of that sort. You just own one license. Just like I don't own Microsoft Windows, but own the license that lets me RUN that software on this computer (that allows me to reply to your posts, get online, and so on and so forth).
Since CA is doing nothing, there must be a way to bypass the liscence agreement. For instance what does the agreement\copywright allow you to do with the .exe? Does it specify what files can and can not be edited?Quote:
Originally Posted by drone
A workaround would be to not install MTW and get access to the .exe through your CD drive. Without having agreed to the liscense agreement, you would have no knowledge about what is and what is not your property. A person like me could even plead ignorance in court. I know very little programming and learned more about the source code today then I have my whole life.
The thought is someone who modifies the .exe through their CD drive, without installing the game and agreeing to the terms, could then host the changes. Every person who would download and use those changes would not edit their own .exe, but simply move it out of the MTW folder and move the modified version in.
There has got to be something that the gaming comunity can do instead of waiting around and signing petitions.
[geek]
The .exe on the CD is the result of the compiler/linker converting the human readable source code files (C code and include files in this case) to a machine readable format (x86 Windows compatible). Not much can be done with the .exe without converting that back to a human readable format, and the conversion would not contain developer comments or useful symbol names (functions and variables). Basically worthless for the purposes of fixing these bugs or improving the game. The source code (.c and .h files, along with Makefiles) is what is necessary to do actual work, and these files remain on CA's servers (and hopefully backups :sweatdrop:) and remain CA's property unless they decide to release them to the public.
[/geek]
The EULA does not really have anything to do with basic copyright on a piece of software. It adds additional restrictions on the use of the files on the disk. The EULA does not cover source, since the source is not part of the product delivered on the CD and is already covered under copyright.
Anyhoo, discussion of torrents, EULA evading, DRM evading, piracy, and disassembling is not allowed at the Org. So let's get back to discussing the petition, shall we?
You could always do the nice thing and create a brand new indie battle engine.
If there is someone geeky enough with time to spare and cracks the source code + edits the bugs and makes the game the way we want it and then releases it on the torrents, CA has the right to sue the guy for infringement.
Hypothetically speaking. But in this world, anything can happen.
All this source stuff is beyond me. Some other game companies have games that are more modifiable, but their game engines are still off limits. I think at least with MTW we get a very solid game that is not as bug-ridden as some of CAs newer releases. Even though these games were released with new features and have more mods, the mods can not cover up the core games flaws.
I think that instead of signing petitions the community should propose a deal to CA. Maybe they would be willing to make some changes to the source code and release it as a very, very late patch to MTW, if we provide them payment for the manhours. If I saw a list of what needed to be changed to MTW and felt that these changes would really alter gameplay, I would be willing to put some of my money in the MTW patch pool.
I wholeheartedly agree with this primarily because it allows people an outlet through which to express their creativity. You could think about any game, from a 3D Maze to a Battle Engine. And all of those could be made to be modifiable. From the walls along the maze to the skins on the soldiers. If you have a 'data' folder with the right tools or even open formats (or widely available formats), then the game is decently modifiable without the need to open-source your game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaiseric
Do any of you guys play games made by Paradox? That is one of the few game companies that continues to support their games well after release. Their customer service is outstanding!!! They offer beta patches to the public and take note of ideas and suggestions for improvements from their forums. They then will give the customers the many of the improvements they want in the next patch. You can sometimes even talk directly to Johan, their lead programmer, who will make changes to the source. In addition to that, Paradox games are very modifiable and what cant be modified, can be suggested as an improvement for the next patch.
If more game companies were run like this it would be a lot easier on the fans and modders, and make for a much more enjoyable game experience.
As has been discussed at length earlier in this thread, doing what other developers do in making games more open and easier to mod is a good thing, but it doesn't address the problems, bugs and incompatibilities in STW/MTW. To address problems like units disappearing in battle, graphical glitches causing CTD's on the MTW campaign map, slow fps on the campaign map, flickering menus and slow campaign/battle loading times in MTW - basically the game breaker problems that are stopping many of us, including myself from playing - the only real solution is a new patch (which won't happen) or release of the source code (that won't happen either - but it's probably more likely than a new patch).
The only hope for STW/MTW players is if the source code is released privately under licence to someone like Good old Games: http://www.gog.com/ . The downside of that is that you will end up paying all over again for a game that you've already bought. It's also far less preferable in my view to an all out release of the source code. Releasing the source will allow for porting to other platforms and some extensive modding (adding new features, writing a new AI, etc).
Theoretically an engine (in STW/MTW's case engines) could be built to make use of the existing MTW game media. This has been done for other games such as the Monkey Island series, the Bioware Infinity engined games (BG, PST, IWD etc) and Transport Tycoon. This hasn't happened for MTW because no one with the interest, the knowledge or expertise has stepped forward and STW/MTW is far more complex than those games.
:2cents:
Probably our best bet, I don't see a source release or an unpaid patch. Having GOG do the debugging work and paying $5-$10 bucks for the updated game would be reasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caravel
How are these efforts received by the developers/publishers? Are there issues with "unauthorized" use of the copyrighted artwork/music?Quote:
Originally Posted by Caravel
As far as I know there's nothing developers/publishers can do so long as the author of the ported game engine does not distribute their original content or infringe on any copyright. This is how openTTD and scummVM work. You can only download the engine to run the game, not the games themselves nor any of the original material. OpenTTD has advanced to the stage that it has open game media, so it's essentially just a complete open source clone now.
The only problem would be if a person or persons made an engine that could accept the data folder of MTW (or at least most of it), he/she/they would not be able to make any money by doing so. It'd have to be purely voluntary, legally speaking, correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by Caravel
It would be free and open source software as with ScummVM and OpenTTD, yes.
Generally, people who do this sort of thing do it for the love of a game, or as a challenge. The rest of us have jobs or family. :rolleyes:
And yet, there is Europa Barbarorum who created a completely new game just based on an engine and managed to get past the obstacles.Quote:
Originally Posted by drone
So yes, it is possible.
No, EB is a mod not a "completely new game". It does not involve any real coding/programming, only scripting. RTW is also much more versatile in terms of modding - which is why something as epic as EB was possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by edyzmedieval
I'm not sure what it's going to take to convince people in this thread that modding a game != programming. :shrug:
In my view, if the release of the source code is desirable, a petition is your only option. CA may not have changed their position on this, but a petition may be the only outlet for your efforts here. Bumping this thread every few months for another few years won't achieve much. You will need maximum exposure, so I'm not sure how you'd go about this. Perhaps something based on a popular social networking site? Then post links to it on all the major total war sites - but be careful at the .com - ask permission first. A joint Shogun/Medieval source code release would be the best objective to go for. I can't imagine CA would release the MTW code before the STW code and at least this will cover it.
:bow:
Simple differences in the realities of two people. For edyzmedieval, EB is a completely new game in that it offers a completely new experience, whatever he may have that mean. You have it mean a new game from scratch, including coding. I think it's nice that everyone has different perceptions; it'd be boring otherwise!Quote:
Originally Posted by Caravel
Let's be more lenient. Ed's idea is not that modding a game is programming. The idea is that modding a game gives you a "new" game. That is, a new game in your virtual reality of gaming.Quote:
I'm not sure what it's going to take to convince people in this thread that modding a game != programming. :shrug:
Facebook is the most popular of the social networking sites if I'm not mistaken. Who's up for an activist group rallying around the release of the code? Hah, just playing. I'm no STW or MTW player. Good luck y'all (I'll be following this, though, it's interesting; I'll share links on my sites if it gets anywhere!)Quote:
In my view, if the release of the source code is desirable, a petition is your only option. CA may not have changed their position on this, but a petition may be the only outlet for your efforts here. Bumping this thread every few months for another few years won't achieve much. You will need maximum exposure, so I'm not sure how you'd go about this. Perhaps something based on a popular social networking site? Then post links to it on all the major total war sites - but be careful at the .com - ask permission first. A joint Shogun/Medieval source code release would be the best objective to go for. I can't imagine CA would release the MTW code before the STW code and at least this will cover it.
Despite the fruitlesness - in my view - of the thread, the discussion is really inetersting. In any case, MTW is an unrepeatable classic, much in line with oldschool boardgames. Its a pitty for it to be left to drown in the sands of time. I am sure that CA won't do anything to sort the problems the remaining community has in playing it (and that community would be far larger if new pcs and video cards etc could play the game), however i sincerely hope it does.
It does make a nice 'what if' discussion but there is little point to it. I love the game as much as anyone but nothing will happen regarding the source code.
Caravel is right regarding EB. Outstanding mod, with hours of time and effort gone in, but it is not a completely new game. It changes the game so much for the better but that is due to it being a historical accurate, well researched and balanced modification with great design and gorgeous skins, not being a new game.
Depends on what constitutes "new game", and hence no right answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Blind King of Bohemia
Yeah, he means new game as new mechanics that come about by hardcoded means. You mean new gameplay.
Nice to see you BKB. :medievalcheers:
A "new game" is quite easy to define. For what it's worth I know what edyz was getting at, but a modification is still not a "new game". Besides, RTW could be modded extensively, MTW could not. We can add new factions, maps, provinces, units etc - MTW can be turned into something like the SW mod or Ancient TW, but when it comes to something advanced like adding an opengl renderer, porting to another platform, or something as seemingly simple as adding/changing vices and virtues or hardcoded events like the arrival of the mongols there's nothing modders can do (not to mention fixing bugs).
A petition is the best (only?) option. They can only say "no" after all.
:bow:
How about a new game? i.e. an MTW clone? These can only be done if for non-profit?
Nice of you to offer - do you have a release date?
I'd still go with the petition. As had been said they can only say no. I'd start one myself but I'm not exactly the best petition writer,and have no idea where to lodge such a petition. How knows, If we get enough names we might be suprised..
I've noticed EA giving away their C&C & Red Alert game for free, and that got a big thumbs up from the EA players. I've also noticed that the Cossacks game has been released in a w7 playable netbook version for a small price. With so many people using netbooks it could be a money spinner to do the same thing for mtw1.
EA gave away stuff for free to celebrate 10 years so CA could do the same and give away mtw1 or stw.
If not, they could still make money doing a w7 netbook version like the Cossacks guys have done.
I'm curious - has anyone approached CA directly?
I'd be surprised if they answered here. Some years ago a group of friends entered into discussions with Bullfrog/EA over a game called Dungeonkeeper (great game!). EA were not interested, but the talks kept going inconclusively until EA folded Bullfrog and discontinued RTS games. Now I hear EA are releasing the source code to a Chinese development agency. The point is that EA would only deal with a corporate identity in which they had a stake, with licences, NDA's, and payments etc.
IMHO if someone did approach CA/Sega it would be important to sell it on the benefits to CA, and those benefits should contain figures representing cash. Simply saying you have the will to do it and the present set up is crap won't cut it.
In short, I think you'd need to give them a proposal that the business people there could understand. Their developers and designers would have no say in the matter. Such a proposal would need to identify the issues, show the solutions, and, importantly, show where the gain for CA is, especially in terms of sales/cash etc. Good will isn't a line on the profit and loss account, despite the fact we all know it matters tremendously for their product. They do, however, count PR for something.
That said, I'm voting "yes" in the poll, and would definitely pay cash for the results.
Without a contract I seriously doubt CA would just release source. I would imagine very few people can actually play the game out of the box on 1 year-old systems, so it surprises me that CA wouldn't hire GoG to rework it. Or update it themselves and release on Steam. From a business standpoint, this would be preferable since a patch or source release would be free, a download via GoG or Steam could bring in some revenue. For 5-10 bucks/pounds/euros/whatever, I'm sure many would re-purchase just to have a working version.
I want to say I think it would be great if community developers got access to the source code. It's how to go about it that's the issue.
Firstly, it's a business decision that will be taken by business people. So, whatever is proposed to them has to have a business case. The developers probably won't be consulted, unless about technical and game design issues.
So, a 2 page proposal would probably do - with a nice cover sheet, an executive summary at the front, and headed up as something like "Proposal to increase saleability of MTW through releasing source code to developer community".
All/most of the things that should go into the proposal have been covered in this post. It just needs to be gathered together, and presented in a document that can be circulated amongst the relevant CA/Sega business people.
It will need to make a business case, and cover costs, risks, mitigation of risks and next steps.
A business case is:
- increase sales life of existing title with no investment
- increase customer satisfaction through solving existing technical issues
- increase brand loyalty by engaging with committed gamer community
- create brand advocates through release of source code (here you can give the examples of EA releasing Red Alert source code, and how the gamer community loved them for it).
This is the kind of language they speak - I deal with them all the time.
Then they'll want to know about costs, risks etc.
Costs:
- minimal: administrative resources needed to manage gamer community engagement
- value of gamer developers investment of time worth £125,000
- (you can quantify this - e.g 5 x developers @ £60 per hour for around 50 days)
- QA (Testing) of release candidate: 2 x testers for 5 days = say, £5,000
Risks
- loss of source code (someone might post it on the internet, just because they can)
- competitor gains access to source code (and hence game design)
- developers sell their own version of the game
- errors in redeveloped product damage brand value
Mitigation of Risks
- each instance of the source code uniquely identifiable
- each instance of source code kept on secure server/pc with individual log in
- signed NDA and contract allowing suing of those in breach
- developer QA and internal QA
For a business person, the thought of 50 versions of their source code scattered over an unquantifiable number of computers, with lots of access to all kinds of people - that is their worst nightmare.
They'll worry - "hey, what if these guys start selling the damn thing on the sly themselves? What if they sell it to someone in China/Russia/India"
They'll also worry - "is this going to give away our game design for the whole series? What if a competitor gets a hold of it?"
These are all legitimate concerns, and simple exhortation, or waving aside of risks etc. is not going to cut it.
Participants in the project:
Now they'll want to know who they're dealing with. A list of the people who will be involved in this project, what their skill set is and why they're qualified to do the work, etc. Brief, but this must be covered.
Next Steps
- response to the proposal
- meet with developer community
- agree procedures and contractual arrangements
- agree sign off procedure (of course they'll want to check what you've done before putting it out to sale)
Someone with a bit of skill with Word, and the commitment to put together the case could probably do this in a few hours. Ideally it should go as pdf. A real coup would also be having a powerpoint presentation - so the thing can be presented on a screen in 5 minutes.
Yes, formatting, graphics, presentation etc. is all important. The more professional you look, and the more you look like you understand their point of view the more influence your proposal will have.
The executive summary is essential because the top business people, the actual decision makers, won't read a long or even medium document. They want it in a nutshell, and a 90 second read is ideal for them.
Next steps for the MTW community:
The final issue is - is there a group of 5 or 6 gamers on this community who would commit to doing this? Go on, put your hands up! :D. That's much more important than voting in a poll.
Seeing no-one has put there hands up so far,maybe it would be a good idea to see about contacting a few of the major mod designers and see if they'd be interested? Or approach GOG about contacting Sega to see if they can acquire it and redo the code for modern systems? Just a thought
sharpshooter I'm just becoming aware of this thread but I wanted to acknowledge your fine post and advice. Anyone looking to forward this initiative would do well to consider what you have written. Well done, and thank you.
I'm echoing Togakure's words, Sharpshooter has given us a very good account on how to proceed. I'm tinkering with his words, thinking over what could be done.
Our beloved Medieval Total War is reaching the 10th year of it's existence next year in 2012, and with that I was wondering perhaps a formatted e-mail with Sharpshooter's arguments on behalf of the Org community would be in order?
The aim would be rather a quick fix of the stringent video card/issues rather than the source code, which will not be given unless payment is made.
HiQuote:
Originally Posted by sharpshooter
Not looking to rain on anybody's parade, but does the MTW fanbase have people with the skills and time to make use of the sourcecode, were CA/SEGA to make it available?
I'd love it to be so.
Best regards
Victor
Sapere aude
Horace
Yes, I admire sharpshooter's intentions but on the whole, the proposal comes across as a very naive one.
There are basically two ways that source code could be released as follows:
1) The source would be GPL'd - this means it would be made "open source" and released under a free licence (i.e. the GNU LGPL or a similar license) for anyone to use within the restrictions of that free licence. Not as fantastic as it may seem https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikiped...le_source_code
2) CA/SEGA would release the source code under a NDA to a company that specialises in revamping old games (i.e. "good old games"), they would not just release it to a group of fans.
The first method is the preferable one as the game will be essentially "free". That would be a wonderful thing for the ailing MTW community. Aside from making the obvious needed fixes for Windows 7/Vista and newer graphics hardware, it would also allow ports to MAC OSX and UNIX/Linux platforms. This would be the preferred option, but I'd bet money that it will never happen.
The second method seems more realistic and I'm uncertain as to why it hasn't happened. An agreement has already been made (old news) with Feral Interactive and they are now supplying a ported MAC OSX version of RTW. So it looks like NDAs are on the table if the conditions are favourable. A similar agreement could easily be made with good old games to do STW and MTW, but either gog are not interested/have not approached CA or either party don't like what's on offer. I would wager that gog are not interested:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt.....-Vote-for-it!
http://www.gog.com/en/wanted/
System Shock 2 is very much in demand with 15090 votes. MTW is divided up as follows:
Medieval Total War: 12
Medieval Total War Gold: 264
Medieval Total War VI: 221
Total: 497
Bad? Well it's worse.....
Medieval II Kingdoms: 161
Medieval II: 190
Total: 351
Rome: 212
Rome BI: 164
Rome Alex: 159
Total: 535
So... apparently there is more interest in "good old games" selling RTW (a game that actually runs on modern hardware :facepalm:) than there is in MTW... a game that will not run properly for most of us...
But it's not all bad...
Shogun Total War: 458
Shogun Total War MI: 281
Shogun Total War WE: 344
Total: 1083
Still well into the blue zone though and 14000 or so votes behond SS2...
So realistically this is not going to happen. SS2 is a cult game that was never really surpassed, the fanbase is understandable, the company folded and the series ended there. MTW is a wholly different thing, it had a sequel and the series continued - newer titles were released and still are. This is probably part of the reason why there's so little support. It's a shame, but there it is.
Wow, talk about support for SS2.
Open source it will never be released, but perhaps we will have some chances with the group of dedicated modders who provided the superb work for MTW so far. Names such as VikingHorde, BKB, WesW, Axalon and Cegorach spring to mind. But it's all volunteer work, again, and lots of work.
Yes, realistically it's never likely to be released under any FOSS licence.Quote:
Originally Posted by edyzmedieval
As I said before, SEGA/CA are unlikely to release the source under an NDA unless it's to a reputable software developer/publisher. They are highly unlikely to just release it to a group of fans. Of those you mention, two seem to be inactive and as far as we are aware, all are modders, not professional C/C++ software/game developers.Quote:
Originally Posted by edyzmedieval
To release to a reputable software developer/publisher there would need to be demand and monetary incentives. i.e. a company like good old games would have to approach CA, not the other way around. As there is next to no demand for this game at good old games (when compared with i.e. system shock 2), then I'm afraid it's not going to happen.
Isn't it time brothers, that this was brought to the attention of the forum and staff at large?
Stickied in the Entrance Hall perhaps, if this is a serious effort on behalf of the Org?
At the moment, only a very small number of our brothers are involved, and the population outside this Hall is largely ignorant of the discussion - which means that this is not really an Org petition.
With enough names and enthusiasm, you could even start your own renovation company and approach CA as a business!
The source code for MTW is second in importance (to me) only to the Thief 2: The Metal Age source. I would do unspeakable things to obtain them.
I see, are you a programmer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Myth
Getting very offtopic here but - yes. AFAIK SS2 uses the same engine as Thief, with a lot of enhancements and Thief 2 was based on the SS2 engine (collectively the Dark Engine). This could mean that a source release involve all three due to the shared codebase and age. The Thief/2/SS2 (Looking Glass) communities needs to put all their effort behind a SS2 or Thief 2 source code release - rather than voting for it on good old games or otherwise dividing their efforts.
This would be a worthy petition.
Old but interesting thread. Anyone still interested in an open-source clone? I mean, how hard can it be, it's not rocket science.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raz
I'm still hoping for a Steam/GoG update and release, although I would love to see the source if they did release it. I don't know much about DirectX/3D, but I would have a blast going through the gameplay mechanics code, there are lots of hardcoded items I would like to make configurable.
If Valve got the rights to fix it up, they might even produce a Linux version. That would be pure win.
I was thinking more in terms of a rewrite. I've been working on a battle engine for an iPad game. It's similar but a bit different to MTW. I just did an experiment writing a lua script that loaded one of the maps from MTW, and it turned out to be not that hard. There's no doubt that a complete rewrite is a lot of work, but on the other hand it's far from impossible. Here's a screen of the map:
Attachment 9622
Looks pretty nice!
The IP rights issue might be a bit of a problem. But if my guess is correct, the game rights are in limbo between CA, Sega, and Activision and none of them would be sure if they could properly sue to stop a redo!
Any kind of source code (original or rewritten) would be great. I was always dreaming about MTW with full 3D modable graphics but unchanged mechanics and current risk type strategic map. Ok, maybe a small changes here and there (like cavalry charge mechanic, armor functionality, removing limits in provinces, units, events, etc.).
@Nikodil Could you tell anything more about your iPad game?
@drone Interesting observation. Also, a decision to sue would primarily be an economic one. And besides, I don't see anything in the license agreement that prevents me form writing some lua scripts that access and display the media files from a valid install.
@Stazi It's here https://itunes.apple.com/app/id442916628, I'm currently working on a map editor and other improvements.
[edit]
Got some basic tree rendering working.
Nice. This game looks really promising. Are you going to add full campaign mode?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikodil
btw The only online store I've found that sells MTW has listed SEGA as publisher. The funny thing is that MTW is still 2nd best selling strategy game in this store :yes:. It's a mystery to me why this store can sell MTW while others can't?
MTW Gold came out of the Eras release, right? Sega bought CA in 2005, Eras was 2006 if I remember correctly. Activision released MTW:Battle Collection in 2004, which might be the same thing as Gold, can't remember about the patch status. This is one reason why I think we are doomed regarding MTW source, I don't think Sega has the rights to it, my guess is Activision does. Sega probably just owns the rights to sell the game, and that's it. Probably the same with STW. So unless Activison and Sega (and maybe even EA from the STW days) agree on it, STW and MTW will not get source released or given to Valve or GoG for modernization.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stazi
As an aside, Sold Out Games (where I got my DVD version of STW Gold) is run by the Mastertronic guys which got absorbed into Sega decades ago. What an incestuous line of work...
There's still a lot to be done with the battle mode, and I'm focusing on that. But yes, campaign mode is further down the road.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stazi
btw, for anyone interested, the source is on GitHub.
Nice work, Nikodil! I look forward to seeing what else you come up with. ~:)
Cripes, I didn't even think of that. The possibility that Sega owns only the right to sell STW & MTW/VI -- and not the source code itself -- never occurred to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by drone
You're right in that it would explain things, though. I've long wondered why neither game was available for sale on Steam (or even better, GOG) -- goodness knows both titles would sell well enough! -- but I think you've hit the nail on the head as to the reason.
It just hit me MTW has turned 11 years old, since it was released in September 2002. A great piece of work.
I reckon we'll get the source code sometime around September 2022...
I'm not even sure if they still use parts of it in the new engine.
Entirely possible that they do - you can't know for sure as it's proprietary software.
It's always been marketed as a rewrite from the ground up since Rome 1 - it definitely seems like it. I believe that Empire was another new engine...
I wouldn't hold your breath for a source release however. It's long been speculated that the code may not even be CA's or SEGA's to release. Both EA and Activision may be involved when it comes to Shogun/Medieval 1 source...
Did anyone actually contact CA to see what they said on the subject of source codes?
CA do visit these forums and ignored this thread for 5 years and 5 months...
I cannot really comment further on whether anyone contacted CA and whether or not CA responded...
/edit:
(which is not something I actually get off on being right about (so far)...)Quote:
Originally Posted by caravel 4+ years ago
We'll get the source code when someone buys a old thumbdrive at LongJohn's garage sale and makes a pleasant discovery. :yes:
CA has been fairly unresponsive when it comes to STW/MTW queries. I forwarded along a question from Stazi to Mr. Simpson regarding the legality of a mod technique, and got no response back.
One thing I do wish for is the fix for the newer video cards.
Well, after releasing the whole unmodified (since the last release) source tree there will be a possibily to build the project without CD-protection, literally making it free to play for everyone. I don't know if MTW is still being sold anywhere, but maybe this is why CA is not interested in releasing the sources.
At least with the Steam Edition of MTW, most of the bugs have been ironed out I think. With video cards too.
To be fair, MTW Steam Edition is quite stable and works very well. Just finished an English GA campaign last week!
They are afraid of the competition probably.. rivals could pick up about the battle engine..Quote:
Originally Posted by virus_found
The last time i saw a copy of MTW in shops, was in 2010 in England, if memory serves..
it was in the "basket sale" section and i remember taking it out of the basket rushingly and proceeding to the till, as i sensed i wouldn't see this happening again..~:)
Can't remember anymore if it was for 5 or 10 GBP.. It was somewhere in downtown Leeds..~:)
It's possible, though I think it also a case of apathy. Releasing the source code isn't going to gain CA anything (and it might reveal secrets about the game engine/conflict with the distribution contracts of Activision/SEGA/Steam/whoever), so why bother?Quote:
Originally Posted by gallum