Piracy makes a comeback

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Originally Posted by Mikeus Caesar

Erm...quite a few actually.

My Father was an engineer onboard merchant ships during the 80's, and was paid danger money due to the fact that an oil-tanker he worked on during the Iran-Iraq war was frequently courting danger. He says that his ship's sister-ship got hit by an anti-tank missile, straight to the bridge, among other things.

Basically, large merchant ships can survive a hit from rusty old RPG's. Sure, it leaves an unsightly hole in the side of the hull, but they don't sink, and there's a low probability of it causing damage to essential system. That, and they couldn't hit the side of a barn, nevermind a giant ship, with an inaccurate RPG, from a few hundred metres away.

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A few hundred metres, when the people on board have bright light, electrified rails and a fire hose? You could be 20 metres away or less and be in less danger from the crew that they'd be from you.

I guess it might depend what sort of craft you're on. An oil tanker might not survive the same punishment.

Assuming that you're probably right, then scrap the RPG. What about limpit mines? Pretty basic to make and placed under the water line will make a nasty hole where it counts.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

I like your eaglespeak blog Tuff , especially the muppets repeating the we won in Iraq bull:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:


Most ships do have anti boarding devices , all are supposed to follow a very long and constantly revised list of proceedures to avoid being boarded(or in the case of being boarded to retain control of the vessel for safety of the crew the cargo the ship and other ships) .
Yet you come to armed guards again , all national and international shipping organisations oppose it , all the officers and seamans organisations and unions oppose it , the insurers oppose it , even the lawyers oppose it ...can you think why they all oppose it ?


Another one with no understanding at all

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Someone who has touble with the armed guard argument :yes:.

See, using non-lethal weapons to defend your ships are nice, but what happen if they don't work? You screwed Tribes. Sure, people will get killed, but you think it be any different if the crew don't have any weapons, + the pirates are violent and their demands are not met? How they to defend themselves? Throw Rocks at the pirates Tribes :laugh4:?

Ill admit i don't know much about RPG's but are the pirates or weapons really that bad that they couldn't hit a super frieghter from a few 100 meters, with the size on the thing the weapon would have to be wildly inaccurate to miss if you aim for the centre of the ship..

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Yeah and I heard about a bank robber who thought the best way to remove the money from a bank was shooting a flame thrower into the safe ....there wasn't much in the way of profit though

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Cute.

Using the analogy, possibly if the bank manager and employees were relying on the safe to live they'd open it, especially if the money wasn't theirs. And all the other banks see that if you don't open the safe, they'd die too.

Unless the firehose makes the AK-47 armed pirates scared... :inquisitive:

~:smoking:

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Using the analogy, possibly if the bank manager and employees were relying on the safe to live they'd open it, especially if the money wasn't theirs. And all the other banks see that if you don't open the safe, they'd die too.

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Perfect Rory , and what are bank mangers and their staff told to do in robberies ?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Perfect Rory , and what are bank mangers and their staff told to do in robberies ?

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Say no way and if required get shot? You can tell them what you want - if you're the 5th in the line and you've seen the other four executed I imagine you'd possibly show more loyalty to your family than the chief exec.

There is a difference between a bank in the UK and International waters off an inherently lawless country.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Perfect Rory , and what are bank mangers and their staff told to do in robberies ?

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I believe general rules used by banks say you should stay calm, cooperate with the robers requests and if is possible to trigger the silent alarm without the robbers becoming aware you should do so.

I´m pretty sure they are not told to wrestle the robbers into submission :wiseguy:

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There is a difference between a bank in the UK and International waters off an inherently lawless country.

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Is there ?
In both the criminals want to get the goods causing minimum damage . In this case the people on the boats are also classed as goods .

I'll for the time being assume you're not being willfully moronic.

The Criminals have the same goals.
There are police in the UK, there aren't in International waters.

See???

Are we trying to square the circle of the bank and the crew on the high seas being a good analogy?

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Well first a suggestion of guns being the answer now he suggests chemical warfare .
But OK ...what problems do the use of lime as a weapon in any environment let alone a maritime environment pose to the defenders who use it :dizzy2:

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Is scurvy a chemical weapon? ~D

These thugs don't attack cruise liners. Though go after cargo vessels.

They do not want a confrontation, they want the first moment you notice they're on board to be the moment they tap you on the shoulder with the muzzle of their Kalishnikov.

Given the crew size on modern merchant shippping, the idea of an active defense is laughable. They've been working hard to get the crew of a mega-merchant BELOW 30 people. A half dozen zodiacs mean the pirates outnumber their opposition. Arm the merchies all you want, they don't have the crew to both sail and defend the ship anymore. In fact, history suggests that they seldom did even in the old ragwagon era.

Moreover, does anyone here understand just how difficult it is to mount a successful defensive watch under the varied conditions involved? Suffice to say, I believe the answer is "more than those 30 crew can reliably do in their spare time." Remember, the only ones on those ships now have busy jobs -- there is no need for "waisters" to haul ropes and run capstans. So any active armed defense would involve each merchant shipping, effectively, a group of marines. Some companies may be willing to go to such an expense, but most will just get the insurance and transfer the bulk of the risk that way.

The most effective "defense" is observant watchstanders and a radio. Manuever to make intercepts difficult and call in the "cavalry."

If their is a military solution to piracy, it does NOT rely on merchant ships trying active defense. Too impractical on a number of levels. Now, a navy Q-ship might make for a lot of fun....:evilgrin:


Side notes: RPGs are a great weapon for pirates precisely BECAUSE they can't do significant damage to the ship. Their weapons are strictly anti-crew. They'd prefer to ransom you back with the ship/cargo, but any defense and they'll just chum you.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

These thugs don't attack cruise liners.

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Side thought: Think of the haul if they just picked up the cash and personal effects of the passengers. :crowngrin:

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These thugs don't attack cruise liners. Though go after cargo vessels.

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Well there was that Seabourn Spirit cruise liner , that was attacked by pirates with RPGs and machine guns , funny though since the heavily armed pirates were beaten by hoses and a loud siren .

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They do not want a confrontation, they want the first moment you notice they're on board to be the moment they tap you on the shoulder with the muzzle of their Kalishnikov.

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Yep , in the same way that a mugger couldn't give a damn if you have a concealed gun because he intends that you won't notice until it is too late for you to do anything .
Now I suppose an example might be needed for those that still can't grasp that guns might be the answer , and what better example than that kiwi Blake , a person whose actions have been described by some of his crew and the local police as not only very silly but downright stupid as they put the rest of his crewat serious risk , silly actions of course that led to his own death for the sake of an inflatable boat and a couple of watches ....So heres to Peter Blake , a great sailor but a bit of a silly bugger~:cheers:

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Is scurvy a chemical weapon?

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Nice :2thumbsup:
I wouldn't know about lime juice but that concentrated lemon juice that comes in a handy little squeezy bottle can work wonders if you want to give someone a good kicking but are unsure if you are able for the job~;)

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Yep , in the same way that a mugger couldn't give a damn if you have a concealed gun because he intends that you won't notice until it is too late for you to do anything .
Now I suppose an example might be needed for those that still can't grasp that guns might be the answer...........

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that is a choice that some nations make, their decision, their consequences. i'm sure they're quite happy with it regardless of what people of other nations 'feel' on the matter.

So what is the problem with piracy? Nobody is dying and companies don't want to pay for precautions.

It is building up Somali towns much more effectively than any proactive initiatives would.

If we arn't prepared to move in to the land havens then these are tax dollars being wasted to protect (failingly) cheap companies.

Maybe if we let it get out of hand it will act like a natural tariff.

Age of Piracy 2.0 rules

If this gets out of hand, the price of various things could go up due to so many supplies being taken away by the pirates.

So basically the answer is to equip merchant ships with automatic cannons and missile launchers that will automatically target any small boat in a vicinity of 200 nautic miles? Or perhaps a MAD scenario where you put a nuke into every ship that the crew can detonate and send all those annoying pirates to hell? It's only a few deaths to make sure our prices will stay down but I suppose we crew the ships with the supporters of such great ideas so that they can make sure it all works out as it was supposed to.

By the way, at my work it is also so that when we get robbed we are supposed to give out all the money and call the police later. One of my colleagues who got robbed before said it's usually really fast and the robbers will even jump over the counter etc. How anyone could possbly think about getting a wepon when one is already aimed at their head is beyond me but go ahead, it's funny to read about the great and heroic battles of tankers vs. pirates. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Husar

So basically the answer is to equip merchant ships with automatic cannons and missile launchers that will automatically target any small boat in a vicinity of 200 nautic miles? Or perhaps a MAD scenario where you put a nuke into every ship that the crew can detonate and send all those annoying pirates to hell? It's only a few deaths to make sure our prices will stay down but I suppose we crew the ships with the supporters of such great ideas so that they can make sure it all works out as it was supposed to....

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I didn't say that we should equip the ships (whether that's good or not (and whether you were talking to me or not)). I'm just saying the effects of piracy.

There is principle and then there is reality. The reality is than seamen don't want to die and it isn't their stuff, so they won't fight.

RPGs are a big concern as it renders defending argument mute - unless they want a sinking ship. Lets look for bright sides. This isn't our stuff - it hurts our competitors and increases the cost of imports against our own products. - to a much lesser extent our exports. It probably will contribute to growth in defense products

Does anyone know what, besides the obvious, we (americans) transport over there back and forth?

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Does anyone know what, besides the obvious, we (americans) transport over there back and forth?

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Anything and everything , that fella with the shovel sure does get a lot of sightseers looking at his hole . The only things that don't go to the hole are those that are too big , but some bright spark wants them big sightseers too so is getting a shovel to make the hole 4ft. deeper .
I blame hollywood myself , that Ferdinand de Lesseps should have stuck to watching French films , once he had seen Field of dreams he got the strange notion that if he built it people would come .

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Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan

I didn't say that we should equip the ships (whether that's good or not (and whether you were talking to me or not)). I'm just saying the effects of piracy.

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I wasn't aiming it only at you but consider that putting a bunch of armed men who get paid a lot per hour on every ship (even those that won't actually get attacked as you do not know which ones will be) won't be cheap either. Then if a ship gets attacked those armed men will fire a lot of ammunition, the more effective, the more expensive, look up the costs of some modern guided missiles for example. Now putting men with guided missiles on a merchant ship sounds silly so maybe they'll just use guns but then the pirates will get anygry and shoot asome RPGs at the ship. If it sinks it will get really expensive, you have to search for it, clean up the oil or whatever etc. etc. If we consider that modern tankers actually have a douple hull I suspect they could survive quite a few hits from RPGs but even then the outer hull will have some holes in it and there will possibly be more internal damage etc and all that has to be repaired, which costs a lot of money especially if you cannot use the ship for as long as the repairs take etc. etc. So you really gotta wonder what is cheaper in the end.

Convoys.

I imagine one Frigate would be able to supervise several ships under most circumstances. Seeing as how at a distance from shore motherships would be required these would be detectable at a distance. These could be intercepted as required and nutralised as required.

I would have thought that this is better than several ships blindly trawling the area hoping to almost stumble over the somali pirates.

The cost would be no higher than having the ships there at the moment. I imagine that with the number of ships being taken is rising, insurance will eventually increase and so the cost of being in a convoy would be offset.

~:smoking:

...The USA hasn't tested a nuke in quite a while. Why not let Bush withdraw under the spotlight by ordering a nuke attack on Somalia, not only just to how powerful nukes are nowadays, but also to clean any and all pirate supporters? (And potential pirate supporters as well) :P

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Convoys.

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You mean like the French operating out of Djibouti are doing ?
Two military ships which means they are allowed to put armed parties on two merchant ships too without any legal complications then getting a whole pile of other ships by appointment to escort and also allowing any other ships to tag along as a non convoyed part of the convoy .
Kinda makes sense doesn't it , its all nice and legal and you don't have the problem of having to declare you are at war to put armed people on civilian ships (a declaration which would of course put not only the insurance up but would mean you had to pay all the crew premium wage rates) .
The only downsides of the operation is that they won't take slow ships and the ships have to wait as its only one convoy opeating the journey up and then the journey down the Gulf of Aden , but they are not much of a downside are they .

Am I the only one who finds this to be full of awesome? THERE ARE PIRATES AND THEY ARE TAKING GOODS! and here we are bickering about how to protect the ships! I say, why let the Somalis have all the fun? The org should buy a ship and start stealing things. Then we could buy Sealand and live forever on our compound safe from the outside world!

Plunder FTW

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Am I the only one who finds this to be full of awesome? THERE ARE PIRATES AND THEY ARE TAKING GOODS! and here we are bickering about how to protect the ships! I say, why let the Somalis have all the fun? The org should buy a ship and start stealing things. Then we could buy Sealand and live forever on our compound safe from the outside world!

Plunder FTW

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I agree - it is awesome. Nobody is dying and when nobody is dying and pirates are running amok I am totally in support of whatever balance is causing it.

When it is a few ships and people are being garroted it is a concern - when it is little boats full of poor people with RPG's stealing Giant Russian, Iranian and Indian crap and giving the U.S. Navy something to do, I can't say that I'm opposed.

I want to see footage of pirates boarding a ship with cutlasses and eyepatches. And parrots. :yes:

The US Navy definitely needs something to do, I'm sure they are bored and feeling left out of all the fun in Iraq and Afghanistan. Park a carrier group off the Horn, organize a comms net with the merchies, and keep a few F-18s and E-2s aloft 24-7. Of course, given our usual track record, it will start out well, but then we will start going after smugglers and other undesirables, and it will just go downhill from there. ~D


Are there still a lot of pirates around Indonesia?

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Originally Posted by drone

I want to see footage of pirates boarding a ship with cutlasses and eyepatches. And parrots. :yes:

The US Navy definitely needs something to do, I'm sure they are bored and feeling left out of all the fun in Iraq and Afghanistan. Park a carrier group off the Horn, organize a comms net with the merchies, and keep a few F-18s and E-2s aloft 24-7. Of course, given our usual track record, it will start out well, but then we will start going after smugglers and other undesirables, and it will just go downhill from there. ~D


Are there still a lot of pirates around Indonesia?

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Yes - just this week there was a hijacking or two in the Strait of Malacca.

Here is another link to that IMB site that Tribesman posted. See, Tribesman? I don't see why you refuse to post links to sources - this one is great.

EDIT - the link is dead again, but keep looking, it is great.

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Originally Posted by Husar

I wasn't aiming it only at you but consider that putting a bunch of armed men who get paid a lot per hour on every ship (even those that won't actually get attacked as you do not know which ones will be) won't be cheap either....So you really gotta wonder what is cheaper in the end.

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You were being a bit obnoxious over something that I didn't say.

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

When it is a few ships and people are being garroted it is a concern - when it is little boats full of poor people with RPG's stealing Giant Russian, Iranian and Indian crap and giving the U.S. Navy something to do, I can't say that I'm opposed.

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Yes, it would sound awesome to you.

Yes, it would sound awesome to an American.

If you disconnect from the reality of the situation, and just imagine it as a film or some kind of computer game it probably sounds awesome to most people... (including me)

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

I agree - it is awesome. Nobody is dying and when nobody is dying and pirates are running amok I am totally in support of whatever balance is causing it....

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

...and giving the U.S. Navy something to do, I can't say that I'm opposed.

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There will be a lot of shooting when the US Navy does something, unless you weren't talking about the pirates' lives.

Y'all see that? It's a golden opportunity passing right through our fingers.

Metaphorically AND literally

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Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan

There will be a lot of shooting when the US Navy does something, unless you weren't talking about the pirates' lives.

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It was tongue in cheek.

Piracy is a major problem in the gulf od Aden, but up against the killing of men, women and children in those areas, it is a refreshing change.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Am I the only one who finds this to be full of awesome? THERE ARE PIRATES AND THEY ARE TAKING GOODS! and here we are bickering about how to protect the ships! I say, why let the Somalis have all the fun? The org should buy a ship and start stealing things. Then we could buy Sealand and live forever on our compound safe from the outside world!

Plunder FTW

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I think I commented on the awesomeness of the situation in the OP. The fact that they're hanging on this long just adds to the greatness. :yes:

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Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

I think I commented on the awesomeness of the situation in the OP. The fact that they're hanging on this long just adds to the greatness. :yes:

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:bow: Can I be your first mate?

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

:bow: Can I be your first mate?

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Only in Massachusetts.

Don't forget Connecticut.

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Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan

You were being a bit obnoxious over something that I didn't say

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If it had been aimed only at you, I had quoted you, but I didn't, I just generally released my post into the wide open planes for everyone to feel adressed if they feel adressed, if you felt wrongfully adressed then that is either because you weren't adressed or because you weren't adressed or perhaps because I didn't adress you. ~;)

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park a carrier group off the Horn, organize a comms net with the merchies, and keep a few F-18s and E-2s aloft 24-7.

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EDIT: Removed hotlinked picture. BG



WOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Foreign policy according to the WWE? I think we can end this thread now.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Foreign policy according to the WWE? I think we can end this thread now.

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oh c'mon! you know it was funny!! What, if someone makes a joke it automatically gets the thread locked???

I heard the locations of the captured ships are not secret. The international community won't attack the pirate bases because of civilian casualties.

I have a great idea for the US Navy to make money. We organize convoys and charge money for protection.

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I heard the locations of the captured ships are not secret.

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I did hear a rumour that the captured supertanker had been hidden in a secret bunker whose entrance is concealed by a very cleverly placed date palm .

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The international community won't attack the pirate bases because of civilian casualties.

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There is of course the slight problem that since these acts of piracy result in hostage situations it means that there are hostages .

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I have a great idea for the US Navy to make money. We organize convoys and charge money for protection.

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I am afraid the competition has that money making scheme scuppered as the French are doing convoys free of charge .
Perhaps you could corner a part of the market by offering more than the french , maybe a voucher scheme so that with every ship that goes for free the crew get a coupon for a free BigMac , that way once you have undercut the French and cornered the market you can really ratchet those charges up on your loyal customers .

Good news is that the vast wads of cash have started to attract other Somalis who want a cut of the action. With any luck they'll effectively cull each other.

In the long term, if after the first ship was taken the demands were responded with "no you've got 24 to give it back, else expect unamused company". If no ship the SAS / Commandos / Americans show that taking ships is... unwise. Possibly the ship is damaged / some crew killed, but The whole plan looks to be a non starter.

Several million in untraceable funds later it's going to take a lot more to persuade them that it's not a good wheeze, and it'll likely take a lot more deaths.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

I did hear a rumour that the captured supertanker had been hidden in a secret bunker whose entrance is concealed by a very cleverly placed date palm .

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How will the pirates ever fare if people like you reveal their secret hiding method of putting sand on supertankers and saying it's and island? :no:

Apparently, the pirates may be at odds with the Islamic faction who wasn't happy that the pirates hit a Saudi ship.

Maybe we should arm the pirates. ~;p

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

So what is the problem with piracy? Nobody is dying .....

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But when the shooting starts:

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Originally Posted by Mangudai

I heard the locations of the captured ships are not secret. The international community won't attack the pirate bases because of civilian casualties.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

There is of course the slight problem that since these acts of piracy result in hostage situations it means that there are hostages .

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Originally Posted by Shaka_Khan

But when the shooting starts:

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Preaching to the choir.