SPQR? Who?

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Originally Posted by Ibn-Khaldun

Hmm... I am Ibn-Khaldun not Ibn Khaldin! Thank you very much. :brood:

But this is a nice topic that people can talk about hours and hours. :yes:

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I do apologise, sir. I only got out of work a few minutes before writing that.

Well I am happy to let this thread stay open for discussion if people still want to discuss it. I only put in the baloon to attract interest.

Thanks for opening that thread at first Brennus!

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Originally Posted by Brennus

THAT'S IT! The time on my laptop has just gone 10:40 as I start writing this so I will announce who (in my opinion) has won them self a balloon. I have based my decision on who presented the most logical argument which included as many cultures as possible:

1. Plutoboyz for his convincing map (even if Carthage's importance was emphasized possibly too much) and for his constant input during this discussion. Please accept a balloon.
2. Imperator Invictus.
3. Cute Wolf
4. Ca Putt
5. Oudysseos (did not actually present an alternate future but instead gave the most interesting answer in my opinion).

I would like to thank everyone who participated in the discussions including those not in the top five. In particular i would like to thank Wathcman, Andronikos, Duguntz, Ibn Khaldin and Hannibal Khan the Great as well for educational input. I hope you enjoyed this thread. Thank you all again!

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thank you for the baloon. I'm honored. I'll put it in my sig

yay, thanks brennus ..... :grin:

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Originally Posted by Watchman

You know I seem to recall that historically Carthage got stomped by an opponent which quite specifically lacked a true warrior class, seeing as how the Romans were working off a citizen-militia system...
Another thing to note is that dedicated warrior classes can also be quite easy to subvert if you know what to offer - a combination of phat lewts and them getting to keep their old status and privileges has often done wonders to win an invader allies, and often enough they've been only too keen to take on mercenary service.

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It's not the prescence of a warrior class specifically that would allow many cultures to defeat the Carthaginians, it's the simple reliance on their own men as troops. It doesn't matter if it is a warrior class or a citizen militia, either system is much more stable and reliable in the long term than a mercenary army like Carthage. True you can subvert a warrior class by parceling out gifts and land, and in actuality, I think a citizen-militia system is much more difficult to subjugate, as a large proportion of the population is trained, armed, and ready to fight for their "nation;" but realistically this isn't the point here. The point is that Carthage, with their heavy reliance on mercenaries, would always have difficulty maintaining control over a large empire. Now, I don't view Machiavelli as much of an authority on anything, but I do think he makes a very good point about mercenaries. "If a prince holds onto his state by means of mercenary armies, he will never be stable or secure. Mercenaries are disunited, ambitious, undisciplined, and disloyal." He is of course biased because he just saw his beloved Italy fall magnificently quickly to the French in part because the Italian princes relied quite heavily on mercenaries. But even so, he's got a point. Carthage would never be able to recreate the same sort of control that the Romans had, even if only in the Western Mediterranean, and certainly not over the entire area that the Romans achieved. As we all know, distance and power both corrupt, and the larger their territory expanded, the more problems they would have had with ambitious mercenary bands (who's to stop them from seizing power over a colony when they are the primary military force in the area?), abuses of power, and of course revolts of the population.

Beyond that, I think others have answered the question far more extensively than I could, so I'll leave it there.

Edit: Oops, sorry, I thought you meant it was open until 10:30 pm tonight....

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Originally Posted by WinsingtonIII

Edit: Oops, sorry, I thought you meant it was open until 10:30 pm tonight....

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Well the chance to get a balloon has passed but please keep giving your theories. Until this people lose interest in this thread or a moderator closes it down its still open. There is still plenty to talk about. Nobody seems to have touched on the fate of the British Isles yet.

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Originally Posted by Apázlinemjó

Without Rome, we would live on space stations already.

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People already do.

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

People already do.

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lol, :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

People already do.

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But not like in the science fiction movies. :(

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Originally Posted by Apázlinemjó

But not like in the science fiction movies. :(

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I want my jetpack, laser gun and flying car too! :klingon:

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Originally Posted by Watchman

I want my jetpack, laser gun and flying car too! :klingon:

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Jabba said you would show up. I want a floating toilet made by Jules Verne.

Hopefully that floating toilet comes with plumbing!

No impractical fancy gadgets, but I think we do pretty good for ourselves...

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/attac...8&d=1272169549https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/attac...7&d=1272169468

Oh wait, I was wrong.

Seriously I think if we had replicators like in Star Trek we could solve ALOT of problems, no more having to damage the environment for materials, no more world hunger, no more running out of drink when the off licence is closed.