I leave cases of beer for my garbage men.
We throw away allot of things, probably some that we shouldnt
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I leave cases of beer for my garbage men.
We throw away allot of things, probably some that we shouldnt
I copy and pasted the scenario, but you can apply it to the real world. People cannot afford the healthcare, because the pharmacies charge people more money than they can pay (obviously upper middle class and above can pay). So Heinz cannot afford the drug, and the companies have it patented (don't forget about that), simply don't care, as they want to get as much bang for their buck as they can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Especially when you see the drug prices in America, compared to lets say Canada. Because Canada forces the companies to stop ripping people off, the companies end up selling it for far cheaper in Canada, because they can still get the profit.
As much as your intentions for a free market you have idealised to occur, the world doesn't work that way. People are greedy and selfish and they don't care if Heinz dies in a ditch along with his wife. The corperate CEO shrugs his shoulder and brags about his profit margins.
While you may feel I am an idealist, in many ways, I am and accept that. Unfortunately, your Free Market dream in many ways is more of a pipe-line. The reason we have regulation on corperations is to stop their immoral (sometimes arguably amoral) practises. Yes, this means the economy isn't a good as it should be, I sure we could have a far higher GDP by paying $5 a week wage to employees and mass selling our products elsewhere, like they do in India, but it is because we value human life and standard of living, that we don't. One of the perks of living in a Liberal Democracy, we are not treated as :daisy: as those employees elsewhere in the developing world.
are you people actually advocating that the right to vote should have to be bought?!?!
have you gone off your medication recently??
The healthiest form of democracy is one that looks after the rights of all its citizens.
With equal voting rights granted to every individual, this naturally allows the largest group to pursue their own benefit to the detriment of the state as a whole.
So if 70% of the population are workers/peasantry, 25% are burgeoisie, and 5% nobility, then with everyone having equal voting rights, 30% of the population will be wholly exluded from the running of the country, and that is hardly acceptable.
Therefore, it would be much better for the good of society as a whole if all classes were represented equally. If there were, say, 90 seats in parliament, 30 should be given to each class, regardless of their population share. This is what a liberal democracy is all about - representing everyone, not just a tyranny of the majority.
Without such checks and balances, the growing benefit-scrounging underclass will simply demand more and more from the government for nothing in return. And then they protest when it all goes wrong - and another Greece happens.
Wait wait, what?!?! 5% of the population should have control of 33.3% the power?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
The nobles/super rich/burgeoisie have enough power as it is, through pure unadulted bribery *cough* lobbying, campaign donations and free board seats *cough*.
That is a terrible idea.
PS: I think you are confusing what burgeoisie are as well. They are the owners of the means of production. May it be a factory, land or shares. The "Middle Class" are simply wealthier proletariat who sometimes mistakenly think themselves as burgeoisie because they like to feel better than the ones below them. This doesn't really include 'small businesses' as well, because the non-chain cornershop owner has nothing on the CEO of Walmart.
No one has advocated such. Nor should they.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin
That first sentence is disingenuous. You are proposing this scenario:Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Gov: As long as I am getting more money from you then you are getting from me, you can vote.
Me: Ok, I got a 1000 from you, here is 2000.
Gov: Ok, you may vote.
This is the scenario of having to buy your vote:
Gov: I want some money from you if you want to vote.
Me: Ok here is a 1000.
Gov: Ok, now you can vote.
It's the same thing with different wording. In the end, you want to vote? Give the gov. your money. Hilarious that this is coming from conservatives. I will await your response where you attack the details (why didnt you just give 1001?!?!) instead of confronting the bigger point.
They may make more than it costs to manufacture an already designed drug, but pharmaceutical companies can't make back the literal billions of dollars it takes to design and test new drugs without charging more. If it weren't for Americans paying high prices, there would be not nearly as many new, lifesaving drugs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
I'd rather we find some way to force the freeloading countries to jack up their prices so we Americans aren't paying for the development of new drugs for everyone else.
You moan about patents - guess how many drugs would be made without them? Very, very few. There would be no way to recoup the large investments, so lifesaving drugs wouldn't be made in the first place. And no one would even have the chance to use the drugs. You can't pretend that companies will still spend billions to make drugs when they can't make the money back if your plan was implemented.
Also, it is sad how you dehumanise your political targets.
You are incorrect. No one is proposing that except you.Quote:
This is the scenario of having to buy your vote:
Gov: I want some money from you if you want to vote.
Me: Ok here is a 1000.
Gov: Ok, now you can vote.
I said, many times, that is incorrect. The government, in my scenario, does not require money for someone to vote. If you are not getting any handouts from the government, than you don't have to pay anything in taxes.
CR
You really shoudln't say things that are demonstrably false. You know, like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
A. I'm not proposing that. I'm saying you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
B. I have already stated that we all receive more from the gov. then we pay in taxes. Your logic is flawed no matter how you look at it.
Ah, and saying makes it so, then? :inquisitive:Quote:
Originally Posted by jabarto
Perhaps you should let me say what I'm proposing in the numerous posts I've made in this thread.Quote:
A. I'm not proposing that. I'm saying you are.
B. I have already stated that we all receive more from the gov. then we pay in taxes. Your logic is flawed no matter how you look at it.
I also stated before that I'm just counting handouts and direct subsidies, not the nebulous benefit of roads, police, etc. That's not flawed logic, just the outlines of my proposal.
CR
Countries are not free-loading, the Americans are just fools realising they are getting ripped off intentionally. What makes it more amusing, you are accusing other countries for Free Loading, because they are not buying into the scam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Patents - I never complained, I just said what you said about a free market wouldn't work, as other drug companies wouldn't be able to produce the drug because of them which undermines your argument suggesting that they would, hence the heinz example wouldn't work.
Interesting that you struck out, like a trapped proverbial rat when I mentioned about big gaping flaws in your Free Market just by simply reminding you of things like patents.
In my system, every individual has 33% of parliament to represent his interests. Without it, 30% of the population will never be able to make their voices heard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
In terms of benefits and taxes etc, the interests of the lower middle-class have probably diverged enough from the proletariat. Although I guess we could make them a fourth estate and give each 25% of the seats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Surely this system is the best way to ensure that the needs of the workers, employers, and aristocrats are met?
No, it is a horrible idea. I don't want some one randomly born from a family of interbreeding to have the at least the equivalent of 3,135 votes compared to my one, even though I can make a far superior choice than they could.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
The blue-bloods should disappear as a footnote on the pages of History.
Needs of the aristocrats.. it is a complete joke, they shouldn't even exist in the 21st century. :juggle2:
At least with the burgeoisie, I will allow them to phase out like a ghost, with the aristocrats, bring in the guillotine.
First off, the USA are not the only country inventing new drugs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
And secondly, while patents may be a good incentive to make people invent new things, they don't really promote a free market, and you should know that with such a quasi-monopole the price will be higher than it would be on the free market(the free market price would still cover the costs). Add to that, that with medication the buyer side is really inflexible and thus at a disadvantage(can't just switch to to a substitute) and your argument that the poor pharmaceutical companies really have to charge that much doesn't really hold up.
To counter Beskar's example you even said other companies would start producing the drug and the price would go down via free market, but that is not possible with patents, except if they can find a different drug with similar effects.
So at first you go and praise the free market and then you say patents are necessary because on a free market the companies couldn't survive.
So how could the companies solve this problem on a free market or does the free market fail whenever reasearch and developent are involved?
Maybe there should be a maximum length for patents, like one or two years, so the companies can get their R&D costs back and then the free market takes over?
We're also drifting away from the original topic, maybe a mod would want to move this into it's own thread?
I am glad i wasn't the only one who spotted that, I would have hated to be accused of making something up. For CR's benefit...Quote:
Originally Posted by Husar
You said:I replied:Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Then you replied:Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
aka, I never even said anything postive nor negative against patents, my "moan" was reminding you that they exist. Then you attacked me reminding you they existed, saying I am hurting the poor companies, when it was you who said "what's to stop companies from simply producing the drug as well?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Is this the end of the free market ideology for Crazed Rabbit? The distressed he showed as he basically attacked his own question? Will this expose the other hypocrisies in his logic and he will turn to the light? Tune in next time.
Why think in terms of votes? Votes have no value in and of themselves, instead they are simply the means by which we gain our representation. Therefore, instead of dealing with the mechanics of voting, my system tackles representation more directly, giving every person an equal voice in parliament. You still have not adressed the issue whereby the interests of 30% of the population will be wholly made redundant in your system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
We live in modern liberal democracies, not the old-style tyranny of the majority style democracies. For one segment of the population to have a monopoly of seats/power in parliament is unacceptable.
The only issue with my system is that there is the potential for two of the three groups to gang up on the other. To resolve this issue, I propose giving a monarch power equivalent to thirty votes in the parliament (the same number of seats as each group gets). As a non-partisan actor, the monarch could side with the group singled out, and bring things to a stalemate until a decision more acceptable for all is reached.
You sound like some sort of revolutionary... if you place the interests of international class structures over the good of the state in which you participate, then you have no place debating how to further the good of that state for all its citizens. Communist!Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Don't be ridiculous. You proposed a extremely simplistic scenario. Changing the scenario will of course change my answer. Making it realistic - like adding patents - means getting rid of the nonsense about some druggist making some miracle drug by changing some material. Making a drug requires a large company, years of research, design, and testing, and then years to get government approval.Quote:
aka, I never even said anything postive nor negative against patents, my "moan" was reminding you that they exist. Then you attacked me reminding you they existed, saying I am hurting the poor companies, when it was you who said "what's to stop companies from simply producing the drug as well?"
Is this the end of the free market ideology for Crazed Rabbit? The distressed he showed as he basically attacked his own question? Will this expose the other hypocrisies in his logic and he will turn to the light? Tune in next time.
Patents are part of the free market, like copyrights on books. And the free market effects monopoly pricing as well - driving the cost of a product down to a price that leads to the most profitability overall, not for the most profit per individual drug sold. The druggist in your example doesn't understand the free market. A savvy company might practice stratified pricing - charging more for those willing to pay for it and less for those who aren't able to pay as much. One real life example is Australia's high video game prices.
You say there's a gap in my logic? Can you answer me this; what would happen if you took away patents and put price controls on all drugs? Almost no new drugs. That's no mere hole in your logic, it's an abyss. It represents a fundamental ignorance about how taking incentives away will stop people from creating products and inanely assumes that such creation will always continue and companies can just be forced to sell products for cheaper with no consequence on supply.
Patents for drugs last 20 years. But since companies apply for patents while developing the drugs, and since testing and government approval takes so long, the applicable length is less than 15 years.Quote:
To counter Beskar's example you even said other companies would start producing the drug and the price would go down via free market, but that is not possible with patents, except if they can find a different drug with similar effects.
So at first you go and praise the free market and then you say patents are necessary because on a free market the companies couldn't survive.
So how could the companies solve this problem on a free market or does the free market fail whenever reasearch and developent are involved?
Maybe there should be a maximum length for patents, like one or two years, so the companies can get their R&D costs back and then the free market takes over?
Lol, it's like racism, but with class instead of race.Quote:
I don't want some one randomly born from a family of interbreeding to have the at least the equivalent of 3,135 votes compared to my one, even though I can make a far superior choice than they could.
I don't like the idea of dividing up classes and giving each one an equal share in government. First, it goes against one man, one vote. Secondly, it assumes that class is the best divisor of society. Third, I'm focusing on limiting the franchise for those who pay more to the IRS than they receive in checks, food stamps, etc., from the government.Quote:
Why think in terms of votes? Votes have no value in and of themselves, instead they are simply the means by which we gain our representation. Therefore, instead of dealing with the mechanics of voting, my system tackles representation more directly, giving every person an equal voice in parliament. You still have not adressed the issue whereby the interests of 30% of the population will be wholly made redundant in your system.
CR
ACIN:
Interesting. My conception of this process does NOT include such a gross quid pro quo. I am suggesting that, on an tax-filing unit (person, couple, family) by tax-filing unit basis, no alterations be made to taxation per se. If the total monies outlaid by the tax filing unit exceed the monies received from the government, then that tax filing unit would be eligible to vote. Given total taxation ranges in the 30-50% zone for most Middle Class USA citizens, I think it unlikely that government officials/office holders could manipulate things in such a fashion that it would create the kind of situation you outline. However, to give you your due, such malfeasance is not impossible so the inverted "vote-buying" scheme you suggest could occur. I think it improbable however, given the basics of taxation.
What I was trying to emphasize is that: a) paying to vote, and b) suffrage rights based only on a certain level of wealth are NOT what CR or I have been discussing.
Beskar:
I think you're accidentally using a "straw man" argument against CR. You are, at least by implication, suggesting that CR is in favor of a completely unfettered an un-regulated free market. Suggesting that "patents undercut the whole thing" is forcing him to defend a position that was not his in the first place. I have little doubt that both CR and I would prefer a less regulated marketplace than would you, but neither of us thinks the "invisible hand" is so perfect a form of guidance that no law, regulation, or what not can be beneficial.
Limited monopolies, such as those granted to Pharmaceutical firms, do have their place. Without the opportunity to profit from innovation, innovation will slow to a crawl.
Regulations to deter and to punish fraud are VITAL to a free market. Caveat Emptor is a reasonable standard, Cacat Emptor is not.
At no point in this discussion has either CR or myself suggested that government be dissolved, that taxation be abolished, or that the market be unfettered completely. A little courtesy please.
No, but the fact that other countries make groundbreaking medical discoveries all the time in spite of what you claim tells columes...Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
You do realise "aristocrat" is just a word for, "managed to retain property over the generations", right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
I'm sure he does. Unless I've missed something, I suspect Beskar is very much of the "escheat to the state upon death" approach to property.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Forgot to touch on this earlier. All of the above is dead wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
First of all, a patent is a state-granted monpoly. That's the exact opposite of the free market. Second, drugs are dirt cheap to produce. There was a study that showed that antidepressants (among many, many other drugs) cost fractions of a penny per tablet. The reason they're expensive is that they get marked up 500,000% (I'm not making that number up) because the drug companies can charge whatever they want. Know why? Because of patents!
Finally, you're correct that patents offer an incentive for innovation. What you don't seem to get is that they're not the only mechanism that does this. The government can do this (surprise, surprise), as can private institutions that already exist.
Alright I see your point, and I recognize that you are not advocating paying to vote or suffrage rights based on wealth. However what I am trying to get at is that if you inject any amount of realism here you can easily point out that the vast majority of those who are not paying more then they are receiving are going to be naturally lower wealth people then the upper wealth people, so it naturally (you could say de facto) creates suffrage rights based on wealth since there is not an equal amount of "free loaders" as many conservatives would label them throughout each wealth class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Also I generally challenge the idea that paying more to the government then you are receiving makes you any more qualified at setting the US on the right course when it comes to fiscal responsibility. I'm sure the bank executives and every wall street investor, broker etc... with his or her hand in the pot jumped on the idea of $700 billion of free government bailout money without any restrictions or oversight.
To be fair to Beskar, this is incorrect. Aristocracy is a form of government based on power controlled by a hereditary elite. Property usually, but not essentially, forms part of the qualification. One can legitimately argue that aristocracy barely exists now, only nobility remains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
Ah, mon petit Robespierre, that turned out well the last time. And it is telling, just like before, that it comes down to you alone permitting who lives and who dies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beskar
Class is a social construct. Being an aristocrat is not based on any merit, test for superiority, or any effort. Someone by stating their are an aristocrat is de-facto stating they are superior to me. I am saying, I could very well be more qualified through qualifications and experience than they are, except they are meant to be apparently better than me, because of their birth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Nothing like racism. An aristocrat they are are better than all the plebs is akin to racism. It would like having a 'black' university professor, who is superior through every means of test, in qualifications, experience, usefulness to society, etc, then have some 'white' who is none of that going "lulz, I was born white, therefore I am better than you!!!".
My apologises for the expression. To be fair, I would just strip them of their aristocracy (their unjustified elite status), not actually bring a return of the guillotine, except to use it on the ribbons tying them to the powers of the state.Quote:
Ah, mon petit Robespierre, that turned out well the last time. And it is telling, just like before, that it comes down to you alone permitting who lives and who dies.
State is a construct to the serve then people and ultimately, humanity. Getting rid of oppression and discrimknation from unjustified elites is a big part of that. So the "good of the state" is nothing more than the "good of the people", and the people will benefit from the removal of the strangle-hold suffering power held by the elite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
"For one segment of the population to have a monopoly of seats/power in parliament is unacceptable." - Are you talking about men/women ? Then you are correct. If you are talking about those of years of noble birth and status? Then you are incorrect. As once you strip them of their aristocracy, they join another segment of the population. Also, having a bill of rights stops any exploition of any real minorities, based on sex, race and other various measures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
Please, my Lord! the peasants must have their illusions!
far more seriously, there are "aristocrats" who have managed to squander great family fortunes, and there are those that have only increased their land, wealth and status over the generations. To be fair, there have been some who have also been up and down, repeatedly.
The important thing though, is that the possesion of large amounts of wealth and property, as you know, tends to come with dependants, which translates into power at a local, national, or international level. The aristocracy is composed of those people who maintain those advantages through the generations, which is why you can only be born an aristocrat, not become one.
Arguably, an aristocrat able to maintain all his inherrited advantages, and improve on them, is better than a man who comes up to poer from nothing, because the latter can only go up, while the former has to work hard not to slide down.
Still, I feel like I'm preaching to a bishop writing this. I'm sure you're much more versed in the philosophy I am very clumsily trying to expalin here.
My own opinion is that you shouldn't scorn a man born fortunate, and you certainly shouldn't scorn a man who dies in a poistion equal to or better than the one he began in.
Well, you're preaching to the choir about bailouts for the financial institutions. The best that can be said of these bailouts is that they attenuated and stretched out time-wise the damage. It's a tough argument whether a short horrific collapse or a slow dismantling is the more painful route to recovery -- lots of folks hurt either way. To the extent that fraud was committed by some Wall Streeters, there are people needing a bit of time in jail as well as asset confiscation.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
Yes, in a de facto fashion, using government largesse v tax assessment will likely screen out a higher percentage of lower-income persons. They are screened out, however, not because they are lower income but because they have a vested interest in pushing for higher benefits for themselves at the expense of other taxpayers. How would you address that concern?
I agree with that first paragraph completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
As for the second, I would address that concern by saying that it is a concern that unfairly targets the poor as it applies directly to the rich as well and even the middle class to a degree. Everyone has a vested interest in pushing for high benefits for themselves at the expense of other taxpayers. There is no difference between the poor man wanting a 100 dollars from welfare and the rich man wanting 100 dollars cut from his taxes. We all work the system this way, in some way. The rich person will still pay more to the government then they get from it, but they work the system to cut another 5-10% from their income tax, which is quite a large benefit for themselves and absolutely counter to fiscal responsibility as much as the poor man abuse scenario. Even more so since the 5-10% of the rich mans salary is a bigger hit then 5 poor men receiving that fixed welfare salary.