Done with Palin and the Tea Party

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Originally Posted by Ronin

I am not saying they are the KKK...they are not openly racist, some of the individual's involved would even claim not to have racist views at all if directly asked.
but if you ask some questions, proble a little deeper, it's there deep down in some, a lot closer to the surface in others.....it's no coincidence this movement flared up as soon as it became apparent that Obama could win the presidency.

these people are enamored with a view of the 'good ol' days' and freaked out that it's being taken away from them....even if it was never as they remembered it anyway.
back in the good ol days when certain people knew their place and taxes were low.....don´t mention to them that their 'saint' Reagan actually raised taxes.

I wonder how is it gonna fly that their new darling Christine o'Donnell (A.K.A. - Palin 2.0) used to be a practicing witch....that should be fun.

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no, i'll say this again; "to write them off as a bunch of nutball racists is lazy and flawed."

the tea-party movement if fundamentally about low tax and small government.

it is not a political party with a disciplined message, it is a loosely aggregated political protest movement that will inneviatbly pick up all manner of wild and wacky ideas, including the unpleasant one.

Comprehensive list of goofy O'Donnell quotes. Yes, I know, any such compilation makes the target look freakish, but man, there are some great ones in there. And yes, I know before you tell me, I'm linking to a left-wing site. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

the tea-party movement if fundamentally about low tax and small government.

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I do not disagree that they also care about those issues.
but would you say that their rise in american politics occuring at the same time that Obama became a presidential candidate is pure coincidence?

the size of the US government is roughly the same it was during the previous administratrions, tax levels are also no higher than they have been in previous periods in time, but we didn´t hear this level of histrionics coming from the american right.

Very good point. They are also avowedly based purely on economic issues. Perhaps that is because announcing you're intending to set up a modern KKK wouldn't garner as many votes.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Ronin

I do not disagree that they also care about those issues.
but would you say that their rise in american politics occuring at the same time that Obama became a presidential candidate is pure coincidence?

the size of the US government is roughly the same it was during the previous administratrions, tax levels are also no higher than they have been in previous periods in time, but we didn´t hear this level of histrionics coming from the american right.

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maybe because the healthcare system is seen to breach the limitations on federal interference on state governance?

now pay attention here; i fully agree with the principle that america's healthcare as stands costs a great deal to little effect, but that is just a britisah opinion, and the mechanism used to repair this deficit is obviously riling a lot of folks.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

it is not a political party with a disciplined message, it is a loosely aggregated political protest movement that will inneviatbly pick up all manner of wild and wacky ideas, including the unpleasant one.

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you're acting like this is purely a grass roots movement, like fox news didn´t baby-fed this group from the start.
and they are repeating and even encouraging some of the crazy rhetoric...this is not just an issue of the loony that shows up to a rally with a megaphone and some crazy notions, it obviously goes higher than that and is more organized and intentional than that.

but what can you expect from Faux News? They are funded by a crazy Muslim and so obviously hate America! :P

I masturbate for the health benifits >:(

No lust requried

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

now pay attention here; i fully agree with the principle that america's healthcare as stands costs a great deal to little effect, but that is just a britisah opinion, and the mechanism used to repair this deficit is obviously riling a lot of folks.

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The amount of research that's been done on this subject by institutions all over the globe is legion and all show what terrible value for money the American system is.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Comprehensive list of goofy O'Donnell quotes. Yes, I know, any such compilation makes the target look freakish, but man, there are some great ones in there. And yes, I know before you tell me, I'm linking to a left-wing site. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

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Ahahaha, you shouldn't lie to a Nazi but invading Iran and killing people is perfectly fine. :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Ronin

you're acting like this is purely a grass roots movement, like fox news didn´t baby-fed this group from the start.

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Actually, there have been a number of well-funded organizations supporting the tea party movement, and Fox isn't even the most important of the lot. Freedomworks, for example, which is fronted by Dick Armey, has been the single-most effective organizer, suppier, funder, etc. Needless to say, Freedomworks does not disclose its finances, but it's reported as receiving funding from Phillip Morris, Verizon, the Schaife family and AT&T. A great deal of money for various tea party organizations has come from the Koch brothers.

There's a lot of money going into this thing.

These primaries and how the Democrats are handling this worries me. With these Democrats being complacent in their standings with these Tea party people winning, there will be only two outcomes:

1. The Tea Party people fail and the Democrats will be safe for two years with a big struggle to continue into 2012.
2. The Tea Party people win, the Democrats lose control handily and America become even more right wing as the Republicans adopt Tea Party doctrines and the Democrats move to the right to attract voters from a perceived failure in their basic ideologies and premises.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

Doesn't account for the facts and context (again), namely, the partial economic collapse which is responsible for the debt, as the government is trying to bail-out the economy and save it from ruin.

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Again, you're oversimplifying to the point of obfuscation. Even if we accept that the bailouts were both necessary and beneficial, they account for a minute portion of the debt the Obama Administration has and will accrue.

The Stimulus was created and passed after the economy had stabilized. It was poorly engineered as an economic stimulant and has not had the desired effect of 'jumpstarting' the economy. It can be argued that the infrastructure improvements are beneficial, but they were paid for with $780 billion of borrowed money. Considering both the interest on that sum and the lost tax revenue that could have been realized if the Stimulus had actually stimulated the economy, it is highly doubtful the infrastructure improvements - while nice - will turn out to be a solid investment. We won't even delve into the massive waste and fraud that accompanied such a large government payout. The only tangible, immediate benefit the Stimulus had was the retention of thousands of public employees. However, such an outcome could have been attained at a far lower cost had the bill been engineered as an actual stimulant instead of an orgy of handouts and unnecessary spending projects.

The rest of the debt has very little to do with the economic collapse, including the $600 billion borrowed to pay for the healthcare overhaul, massive entitlement spending, and huge increases in the size and cost of goverment. Take a look at the President's own numbers. Debt is set to expand exponentially long after the Administration has predicted economic recovery.

Going back to Ronin's point, I get the impression that Fox News is a little bit conflicted. As a corporate entity, NewsCorp is aligned with Republicans, but some of the most popular FNC hosts are at the forefront of the tea party. However, Republican interests do not necessarily equate tea party interests, and the tension is palpable.

From a recent transcript on FNC's Fox News Sunday:

WALLACE: Juan, you know, I want to get back to this point. At least seven states that we counted, tea party insurgent candidates beat the Republican establishment candidates. I don't think you can ignore the fact that there's a sea change going on here inside the Republican Party.

WILLIAMS: I don't see how you can get away from the idea that there's a, I guess, civil war or whatever you want to call it going on within the party for exactly what does the Republican Party represent.

In fact, so much money that is funding the tea party clearly now is coming from outside the Republican establishment, some of it coming from, I guess, the health care industry, some of it from the oil industry. They're all angry at Barack Obama.

But they've overdosed now in terms of the anger at Obama -- you know, Obama's a socialist, Obama's a Muslim, Obama's this and that, not born in the country. And it's stirred up things to the point where I think the establishment has lost control and the tea party is now in control in terms of picking candidates. And when I hear you guys talking about O'Donnell, I mean, it's amazing to me. OK, so O'Donnell has trouble with taxes, her academic credentials, paying for school, paying her own mortgage. She's someone with no record.

And when you start to talk policy -- you know, Obama's un- American, she wants to do away with the Education Department, she's someone who says her jobs plan for America is simply cut the capital gains tax, I think when the voters of Delaware -- by the way, Delaware has very few Republican voters, more independents than Republicans, and more Democrats than independents -- I just think people are anti- establishment and willing to challenge things. They're wiling to give Republicans a chance.

But when they look at that kind of candidate, they say, "This is fringe. This is extreme." And that's the problem across the country.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

In fact, so much money that is funding the tea party clearly now is coming from outside the Republican establishment, some of it coming from, I guess, the health care industry, some of it from the oil industry. They're all angry at Barack Obama.

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So the logical conclusion is that they're racists too? :wink:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

So the logical conclusion is that they're racists too? :wink:

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Straw, meet man.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

So the logical conclusion is that they're racists too? :wink:

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more like these companies see the tea party as "useful idiots" like Lenin would say.

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Originally Posted by Ronin

more like these companies see the tea party as "useful idiots" like Lenin would say.

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Except Lenin never said it.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

Except Lenin never said it.

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very well, screw Lenin, I said it! :P

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Originally Posted by Ronin

very well, screw Lenin, I said it! :P

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:beam:

I agree with it for this example though. It is like the Pro-smoking lobby and Anti-Environmental lobby, as well.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Straw, meet man.

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I also understood Ronin's main point to be that the Tea Partiers were racists, which doesn't really have anything to do with your point about outside interests funding the groups or conflict at Fox News. I think that is the disconnect.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

The amount of research that's been done on this subject by institutions all over the globe is legion and all show what terrible value for money the American system is.

~:smoking:

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i agree, but so what, i'm just a british subject and my opinion doesn't count in the yank debate on whether they want a good-value health service.

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Originally Posted by Ronin

you're acting like this is purely a grass roots movement, like fox news didn´t baby-fed this group from the start.
and they are repeating and even encouraging some of the crazy rhetoric...this is not just an issue of the loony that shows up to a rally with a megaphone and some crazy notions, it obviously goes higher than that and is more organized and intentional than that.

but what can you expect from Faux News? They are funded by a crazy Muslim and so obviously hate America! :P

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no, i'm acting like the yank electorate are adults of sound mind who must be allowed the 'privilege' of watching stupid newstainment if that is their wish.

the tea-party movement matters because a significant percentage of the american electorate believes tea-party ideas matter.

it is that simple.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

i....no, i'm acting like the yank electorate are adults of sound mind who must be allowed the 'privilege' of watching stupid newstainment if that is their wish.

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Actually, we have several different choices of newstainment....lucky us. What we lack is anything resembling unbiased reportage. American news, cable or otherwise, is virtually always slanted one way or the other. Fox's popularity is a result of it's slant being in the opposite direction from the other choices.

What we can choose from is partisan debates packaged as news, in-depth discussions of a subject (but through the "lens" of one set of assumptions or another) by hosts whose point of view is well known, and total infotainment tripe on irrelevancies like a local octagenarian walking in a Relay for Life event. While such "feel-good" pieces televise well, they hardly constitute news. Real news about things like economics, government policies or malfeasance, and the spending of public funds generally constitutes less than 10 minutes of the time devoted to a 30 minute news program.

I generally watch MSNBC with the sound off, focusing on the crawl. Then I can look up anything of substance without having to cope with the rest of the drivel and inanity.

that is why many uk broadsheets have a clear separation between news and editorial.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

I generally watch MSNBC with the sound off, focusing on the crawl. Then I can look up anything of substance without having to cope with the rest of the drivel and inanity.

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That's pretty much how I watch CMTV.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

no, i'm acting like the yank electorate are adults of sound mind

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I think I found the problem here.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Actually, we have several different choices of newstainment....lucky us. What we lack is anything resembling unbiased reportage. American news, cable or otherwise, is virtually always slanted one way or the other. Fox's popularity is a result of it's slant being in the opposite direction from the other choices.

What we can choose from is partisan debates packaged as news, in-depth discussions of a subject (but through the "lens" of one set of assumptions or another) by hosts whose point of view is well known, and total infotainment tripe on irrelevancies like a local octagenarian walking in a Relay for Life event. While such "feel-good" pieces televise well, they hardly constitute news. Real news about things like economics, government policies or malfeasance, and the spending of public funds generally constitutes less than 10 minutes of the time devoted to a 30 minute news program.

I generally watch MSNBC with the sound off, focusing on the crawl. Then I can look up anything of substance without having to cope with the rest of the drivel and inanity.

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PBS NewsHour is not completely unbiased, but it is pretty damned close. BBC America and Al Jazeera are very objective when discussing American news. "American news" is crap, but there are plenty of other news sources with American television programming for the public to watch.

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Originally Posted by Furunculus

that is why many uk broadsheets have a clear separation between news and editorial.

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This is how I can read through the telegraph without wanting to remove my eyes violently with a spoon, like the urge I get with the tabloid papers.

On the plus side, you could always use the BBC news website. It isn't that bad, though sometimes it is just hilarious when it has to report something that is illegal in a negative way, even though the illegal actions are some what good, as they recently did with the '4chan' articles they have been doing.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

This is how I can read through the telegraph without wanting to remove my eyes violently with a spoon, like the urge I get with the tabloid papers.

On the plus side, you could always use the BBC news website. It isn't that bad, though sometimes it is just hilarious when it has to report something that is illegal in a negative way, even though the illegal actions are some what good, as they recently did with the '4chan' articles they have been doing.

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i generally agree with the editorial line too, but i treat the two separately.

i feel the same way about the guardian.

No explosions/gossip on PBS= unwatchable IMO

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Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito

I don't really know much about the other T.E.A. *Taxed Enough Already* party candidates. The problem with depending on the mainstream media for info is that they do the established party's bidding, so their reporting is skewed and mostly negative. I'm more concerned with my state, New York, this election. The man I want representing me for Governor, Carl Paladino. There's no such thing as an ideal candidate, but I'll take Carl over the anointed one, Prince Andrew Cuomo, any day. I suggest my fellow New Yorkers do the same, unless they like the status quo that Prince Andrew represents...

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I was wondering if you had seen this, and whether it changed your mind.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/maggie..._remarks_.html

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Andrew Cuomo's team pushed hard on rival Carl Paladino for his comments about not letting young people be "brainwashed" into the believe that being gay is a "valid" way to live, and faulting his opponent in the New York governor's race for marching in the Gay Pride Parade.

The Republicans' written remarks, which his campaign manager said were crafted with the Orthodox Jewish community members whom he met with, included this line - which the candidate didn't say but which were included in the written remarks given to reporters: "Nothing to be proud of in being a dysfunctional homosexual."

"I didn't march in a gay pride parade this year - my opponent did," said Paladino in his speech. "And that's not the example that we should be showing our children, certainly not in our schools."

Paladino insisted that he was not suggesting he "wanted to hurt homosexuals in any way" and that to quote him as such "would be a dastardly lie. My approach is live and let live."

"I just think my children and your children would be much better off and much more successful getting married and raising a family, and I don't want them brainwashed into thinking that homosexualtiy is an eqully valid and successful option--it isn't."

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