I don’t know how anyone else feels about the news that they buried his body at sea, only a couple of hours after they said they killed him but to me it makes no sense.
It can not be a stupid error either.
I think I smell a rat.
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I don’t know how anyone else feels about the news that they buried his body at sea, only a couple of hours after they said they killed him but to me it makes no sense.
It can not be a stupid error either.
I think I smell a rat.
a symbolic death of a symbolic figure....he was no more than a figurehead to inspire nutjobs...now the nutjobs will claim he's a martyr...the game goes on.
Step up the security for a few months I guess....a few retaliatory terrorist action attempts are to be expected.
P.S. - Donald Trump says he isn´t buying this and wants to see a verified death certificate!
P.S.S. - Any one like me who is a wrestling fan knows what might have pushed Osama over the edge last night...
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...aKillMeNow.jpg
there is no way for the US government to win on this discussion....if they buried him at sea people will claim it sounds fishy....
If Obama had Bin Laden's ass stuffed and posed on the oval office people would claim the body was a fake.
parading his body around would probably send the wrong message.....the man's importance was a symbolic one...and there is the whole martyrdom angle....
It strikes me as a perfectly intelligent thing to do.
Islam permits burial at sea and it has been done within 24 hours as required. It removes any possibility of shrines etc or the diplomatic problem of no-one (especially Saudi Arabia) wanting his body.
If you refer to the possibility that people will question his death, there are already enough photographs of the body available to convince the skeptic. DNA has been taken. And those who would concoct conspiracy theories will do so anyway - one awaits Mr Trump's interpretation of events with popcorn.
A good decision among many good decisions by the President and his advisors (if it proves true as reported).
It does make some sense to burry him at sea to deny him a martyrs grave site but to do it so quickly raises too many questions.
It makes me think that this is world class political grandstanding.
Did they kill him?
Was he already dead and this just a way to gain political points?
Is it all a lie?
Also this would have been known at the time of the first anouncment, why not tell us then?
I had a strong feeling he was hiding in Pakistan, looks like I was right.
This thread is tasteless.
Ceremony at see ASAP because of respect for funeral within 24h.
So BQ, you do not have to wriggle your tongue out to try and explain why some rules do not apply if it's a badie, he is buried.
...
What the heck:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13256676Quote:
The Abbottabad residence is just 200 metres from the Pakistan Military Academy - the country's equivalent of West Point.
seems reasonable considering what is known about certain sectors of the Pakistan government.
CHECK Osama bin Laden killed
CHECK Disastrous tsunami
CHECK Nuclear disaster
CHECK Revolution in Tunisia
CHECK Revolution in Egypt
CHECK Civil war to oust Gadaffi
CHECK Mass unrest in Syria
CHECK Yet another Western military intervention
It's been an eventful year thus far, alright. Looks like the world is going to end in 2012, after all?
So, he's gone - but whether it matters much, remains to be seen.
Telling of what exactly?Quote:
@The Mad Arab: Your attempt to invoke sympathy for a massmurdering fascist who wished to destroy everything that is culture and reinstate an old oppressive empire is telling.
Are you accusing me of sympathising with terrorists or fascists? Even if it were true, does that make me an accomplice in the war on terror? Am I too pro-Islamic? Should I be put on trial? Is my criticism of how the western world has interfered in Middle Eastern affairs for roughly the yest century a reason to suppose that I hate the west or that I would rather see an Islamic state? Me, a non-Muslim? I don't think so.
Paraphrasing Robert Fisk, since the 9/11 attacks and even before that, it has become a trend in western intellectual debates concerning the state of the Arab and Islamic world to accuse anyone that is critical of the way the West has handled its affairs in the Middle East of siding or sympathising with terrorists. The very notion of "terrorism" has stifled any real debate, and the irony of this? It means "the terrorists have won".
I like the ideals of the Enlightenment. I think that at the current state our culture is superior to that of the Middle and Far East. I think that we have allowed room for individualism and tolerance and managed not to kill or try anyone that does not agree with the mainstream. Give me Sartre or Kant over Ghazali or indeed Siddharta any day. The very fact that I have been granted the possibility to look more closely at the reasons why al-Qaeda wants to kill people. Did we ever really wonder why? Maybe we didn't. It was a fair pretension to suggest that the "terrorists" just did what they did because they hate freedom and democracy, and that's that. I don't think that's the reason, and the very fact that I'm allowed to think and write down that I think they've got other reasons is what makes the West superior. For the moment.
Also, what "old oppressive empire" are you referring to? The Caliphate? The Ottoman Empire? What empire?
It appears he had his funeral, I believe it's time to flame him now.
You went from entirely criticising the tendency in the West to censor and restrict debate on terrorism to praising our utter freedom of opinion? Doesn't this contradict itself slightly?
The cold truth is, the United States apparently 'declared war on terrorism', and so anyone who sympatheticlly writes about the terrorists will always be branded as a traitor/sympathesizer. Or, to put it in a less biased view - anyone who writes about the extremists motivations.
The fact we can discuss these subjects on a daily basis is proof of the open society we live in... and that your taking his comment out of context a bit too much.
Good news to read over my morning cuppa. The only shame is that OBL was allowed to strut around for ten years or so.
Yes, the man was a symbol and a figurehead, but symbols have power, and his continued existence was a punchline for all the wrong sorts of speeches. Better this way.
Burial at sea within the Islam-mandated 24-hour framework strikes me as extremely wise. Well done CIA, well doneDeltaSeals, well done President Obama.
Which is exactly what I was aiming at. As of the moment, I am able to express these opinions. It would be a great loss to the West if free speech would be stifled to such a degree that one is not able to express their diverging opinions. As I mentioned, it seems that free and open debate is being stifled more and more.Quote:
The cold truth is, the United States apparently 'declared war on terrorism', and so anyone who sympatheticlly writes about the terrorists will always be branded as a traitor/sympathesizer. Or, to put it in a less biased view - anyone who writes about the extremists motivations.
The fact we can discuss these subjects on a daily basis is proof of the open society we live in... and that your taking his comment out of context a bit too much.
His comment was a personal sleight at me and my opinions concerning Middle Eastern politics. Perhaps my position was unclear, I just wanted to point that out.
As I said, it's a trend that has been increasingly prevalent over the last years, but it's not that bad yet. We shouldn't lose this moral superiority.Quote:
You went from entirely criticising the tendency in the West to censor and restrict debate on terrorism to praising our utter freedom of opinion? Doesn't this contradict itself slightly?
But what about all the good things Osama did?
Did I read correctly, did he actually get buried within 24 hours? I suppose on one hand it means they stuck with the custom, even though the custom is not conducive to good science and crime solving, and they get kudos for that. On the other hand it reinforces what many Muslims already believe: the world really does revolve around them.
I would have preferred to see him in a museum, or perhaps a comedy act with Joan Rivers.
Movie idea: Weekend at Osama's, where some jihadists use Osamas corpse to help recruit new fighters, and they try and try to keep the new recruits from realizing he is dead (good thing they can't read LAWLZ).
I just copywrited the above, script written last night, I will sue anyone who steals the idea
Amen. A glorious day here in the US. I was just about to go to bed last night when I heared the news.
Only bad thing is he might have a similiar sick minded person ready to take this place. Hopefully not though.
:laugh: :laugh:
Oh, what a lot of partay poopers in here.
I remember exactly where I was on 9-11, and I'm celebrating this man's death, yes. I've always had a thing for justice being meted out.
:cheerleader: :unitedstates:
Also, it would appear the Pakistani military elite thought it practical to shelter this man in their midst. In a heavily military patrolled area. Dear oh dear.
Good news if he is dead.
The picture of his face (after death) that's been doing rounds on the Pakistani news channels however, is clearly fake.
And as per usual, Fox News can't help themselves.
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...DLINE-FAIL.jpg
Just like Obama's birth certificate and the moon landing and the Kennedy assassination and the death of Elvis and Roswell!
Fox is pathetic. It reeks of a continued attempt to subliminally influence people.
Must be a tough day for Fox. Indeed, a tough decade:
'3000 Americans killed in the worst attack on American soil in US history'
Fox / GOP / Bush: 'Let's use public sentiment to spend two trillion dollar of tax money in a confused mix of private and public interest'
Obama: 'I vow to bring the perpetrators to justice'
If I had the vote, the election of 2012 would be over already.
Here's some very good reporting on the operation.
Huh. I realy dont feel anything about this. The guy who ordered 7/7 and 9/11 is dead and I dont realy feel triumphantor proud or even glad. Huh.
Still, I dont realy understand why they dumped the body in accordance to some muslim custom, you'd think the americans would be more inclined to parade the body around or something.
According to the reporting coming out, we offered the body to the Saudis and they declined. Burying him in Pakistan would create a shrine for terrorist-wannabes. Bringing the body back to the U.S. would have a whiff of head-on-pike-ism, as you suggest.
Islamic custom is burial within 24 hours. We honored that, and in a manner that neither disrespected nor glorified the jerk.
It's also coming out that the President was advised to bomb the complex, but he sent in the kill team because he wanted proof positive that we got OBL. A risky but smart choice.
-edit-
Couldn't help myself, checked out Fox News' home page. Nice pic of president Bush, lots of headlines about the SEALs, only a tiny, buried reference to the current Prez. Astonishing, really. See if you can find mention of Obama on the page. Warning, it's quite small. (And yes, I know this is a minor, minor point, but I continue to be surprised by the overt, mindless, unthinking hostility to our President, regardless of context and fact.)
Some people simply deserve to die. I have no moral problems with celebrating the death of people like Bin Laden, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc. Point out the hypocrisies all you want, as they are certainly there, but it doesn't change the fact that in this specific case I believe this specific man deserved death.
:laugh:
Elvis is alive and is learning karate somewhere in Southern China.
Anyway...if you look at the picture carefully, the beard is almost entirely black as opposed to quite a lot of white which has been visible in his pictures lately. Furthermore, everything including his nose and below has a different complexion than the above part of his face. And I might be wrong in this but I felt that the resolution differed in the top and bottom of the image.
I'd post a link, but it's rather...disturbing so...
As long as its only a link instead of the actual image I think the mods would be ok with it.
So, buried at sea in 24 hours interval? according to Islamic custom?... hmm.... he actually deserve worse things, but it's OK, USA has a sense of Chivalry afterall.
However this proves that Pakistan is lying to all of us, what now? If this is the time of Medieval wars, the next logical step is exterminating entire Pakistan, but because it's modern war, I can bet soon USA, India, and NATO will invade Pakistan, using this event for Justification.
It's a montage of this picture.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9I0BPpUfH3.../bin_laden.jpg
Mirrored so that his chin faces the left. Then they did a ver well done photoshop. But yeah, the picture is very gruesome.
I am completely confused as to what I'm feeling at this moment. In one sense I'm glad justice has been served, but there is no euphoria and some concern as to what this means for the future. Did we strike the heart and soul of AQ? Or did we just provide a super martyr for the cause? One thing I'm relieved about is that we apparently handed his burial appropriately. One concern I had last night as I went to bed was that we'd just make matters worse by mishandling his body.
This is the weirdest feeling I think I've ever had...just wish I knew what it was.
Like we need any further justification to attack Pakistan?
I trust our leaders will be smart enough to not do something so ill-advised, though. Pakistan has been the real problem for over a decade. Invading them would solve nothing. And don't forget the Pottery Barn rule.
-edit-
UBL was a symbol. Among other things, he was a symbol of the invincible underdog sticking it to the superpower. Taking him down was the right thing to do, no matter how long it took.
Pakistan is supported by China.
Pakistan is a country with nuclear weapons.
India won't do anything.....ever.
USA, well if they really have managed to kill Osama, I don't think they'll want to waste any more time or manpower in the area.
@Jolt
That's exactly it. Now why would someone create a fake picture? Just to boost their channel's ratings?
Some very good points from a blogger:
1) This is a great moment in American history. There is justice in the world. But where is Ayman al-Zawahiri? Capturing the al Qaeda number-two would close this chapter almost entirely.
2) Pakistan has a great deal of explaining to do -- how could Bin Laden have been living near Islamabad, in a city, Abbotttabad, that is in some ways a military cantonment? This operation will only confirm for many people that Pakistan's intelligence service, the ISI, knew more about the al Qaeda presence in its country then it shared with the U.S..
3) President Obama has laid to rest, at least for everyone not named Donald Trump, the notion that he is some sort of soft-on-terror, Manchurian-candidate stealth-Muslim.
4) American deterrent power is partially restored. The lesson for terrorists: If you commit an act of violence against America, this country will hunt you down until you are dead or in chains.
5) Islamist terrorism is not over. Bin Laden was not an operator, nor was he seemingly in control of operators. Cells may be activated in the coming days, individuals with jihadist goals might take action. This is a dangerous moment. An inevitable moment, but a dangerous one.
6) Al Qaeda is a diminished force, as a terrorist entity. But its ideas will remain potent among a small minority of Muslims, disaffected males in European countries among them.
7) If President Obama is seeking a quicker exit strategy from Afghanistan, he now has one.
Saw this late last night, and the celebrations left a sour taste in my mouth. A crowd of people gathered in front of the White House, chanting, singing, waving flags. The only things missing were a flag/effigy burning and AKs being fired into the air and the scene could have been any Middle Eastern capitol. How many times on this forum have we decried the reaction in Arab countries when :daisy: hits the fan in the West? And "USA, USA" chants everywhere? Really? Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that we finally got to him. But there is no reason to celebrate, not when it has taken so long and cost us so much.
Onto analysis, the two-step with Pakistan is the funniest part of this. They want credit for helping us, even though they don't. We want to credit them, even though we don't. I'm not surprised one bit about where he was "hiding" out.
I understand where you're coming from, and you have a point, but I don't think the US citizens' reaction to the execution of an internationally recognized criminal is comparable to, say, the Palestinian celebration of the 9/11 attacks. It's been a decade-long hunt for the front-man responsible for the cold-blooded murder of 3000+ citizens. Some cheering and chest-thumping is warranted.
Another great thought:
As long as the "Global War on Terror" was defined as eliminating all threat of terrorist activity, it could never be ended. That threat -- like other threats -- will never completely go away. But if this admittedly symbolic victory in the "war" can be taken as closing a loop opened ten years ago (and earlier, with previous OBL-inspired attacks), perhaps it could free us to continue the vigilance while beginning to correct the decade-long warping of our values. That is another gift the commandos who carried out this mission may have given America. We will see whether Obama is willing to lead that way, and others are willing to follow.
-edit-
And in sweet irony news, the President's announcement pre-empted Celebrity Apprentice on the East Coast.
Ah yes, the Chinese Communist/Jihadist axis of something or another. Don't you hate it when atheist totalitarians and Islamists team up? I think the Freemasons and the Illuminati are mixed up in it too.
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...infoil-hat.jpg
Cheering I could stomach. Chest-thumping? Not so much.
"Yeah! OBL is dead! USA, USA! We're #1!. (Pay no mind to the trillions of dollars, Constitutional costs, thousands of American soldiers' lives, and countless lives in occupied lands spent)"
Not really much to be proud of. It's a task that needed doing, and one that we botched in a very large, messy way.
If you're joking then it's OK, because that is so not what I meant.
All I pointed out was that China has been using Pakistan to control the status quo of power in the subcontinent since quite some time. It is not news that AQ Khan researched n-weapon technology using Chinese aid. Infact I remember reading somewhere that recently when a US delegate confronted a Chinese diplomat about their support to Pakistan, he commented that Pakistan was their Israel.
Well, hmm. I don't agree. My personal response has been sober and somber, because you're right, this has come at a high price. But on the other hand, I don't begrudge anybody who wants to chest-thump and chant USA! USA! USA! That's their right, man, and I can understand where they're coming from. This is a moment to focus on what has been accomplished. Does it signal a shift away from some of the stupider elements of the GWOT? I hope so. Will we reevaluate our commitments to three, count 'em, three wars in Islamic nations? I hope so. Does it say something that seven years of torturing enemy combatants didn't yield this result, but two years of diligent intelligence work did? Yeah, I think that's blindingly obvious to anybody who isn't a rabid partisan.
And hey, it's your right to feel revulsion at the celebrations. That's legit too. But I don't share your feelings, and I think US citizens are owed a little kegger right now. It's been a hell of a decade, not a good one for the US by any measurement. Let's bask for, say, 24 hours in a job well done.
-edit-
C'mon, even you must understand and empathize with the reaction at the US Naval Academy. We want our warriors to be pumped up when we take out the enemy. And this is their moment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_104CFkUGzc
It leaves me utterly unmoved. Good to know there is one less terrorist to not worry about, now please get on with the real job. (Fixing what we broke.)
C'mon man. The Sacramento Fox affiliate makes a common mistake and it's 'omg faux news attacks!'? I guess MSNBC has chosen to go the same route.
I watched a few hours of coverage on Fox last, the actual cable channel and not an affiliate, and all the hosts and commentators were very congratulatory and complimentary towards the president, as they should have been. This is a good day, let's not mar it with the typical 'fox news/msnbc/cnn said what!' crap that seems to accompany every major news story these days.
Anyway, I feel slightly vindicated after years of arguing over Gitmo on this forum.
Quote:
After years of dead ends and promising leads gone cold, the big break came last August. A trusted courier of Osama bin Laden’s whom American spies had been hunting for years was finally located in a compound 35 miles north of the Pakistani capital, close to one of the hubs of American counterterrorism operations….
Detainees at the prison at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, had given the courier’s pseudonym to American interrogators and said that the man was a protégé of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the confessed mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks.
American intelligence officials said Sunday night that they finally learned the courier’s real name four years ago, but that it took another two years for them to learn the general region where he operated.
A very good thought:
This is a triumph for the United States of America, for our soldiers and intelligence operatives, and for the president as well. But it is not quite the triumph that it would have seemed if bin Laden had been captured a decade ago, because those 10 years have taught us that we didn’t need to fear him and his rabble as much as we did, temporarily but intensely, in the weeks when ground zero still smoked.
They’ve taught us, instead, that whatever blunders we make (and we have made many), however many advantages we squander (and there has been much squandering), and whatever quagmires we find ourselves lured into, our civilization is not fundamentally threatened by the utopian fantasy politics embodied by groups like Al Qaeda, or the mix of thugs, fools and pseudointellectuals who rally around their banner.
They can strike us, they can wound us, they can kill us. They can goad us into tactical errors and strategic blunders. But they are not, and never will be, an existential threat.
This was not clear immediately after 9/11. On that day, they took us by surprise. They took advantage of our society’s great strength — its openness and freedom, the welcome it gives to immigrants and the presumption of innocence it extends. And in the wake of their attack, we did not know what they were capable of, or how they might follow up their victory.
Now we know. We know because bin Laden is finally dead and gone, but in a sense we knew already. [...]
Day after day, hour after hour, we learned that we were strong and they were weak.
It's exactly the prelude, not the final act, that should temper our celebrations. Almost 10 years to figure out what should have been done in the first place. And it's hard to enjoy a kegger when all you can afford is Old Swill, Beast, and Cook's.
Actionable intelligence, operators on the ground, no or very little collateral damage. In the end, it was almost 20th century European in it's execution. What's the old saying? "The United States will, after exhausting all other options, eventually do the right thing." I'll pop one for the SEALs tonight, they deserve it and more.
Well.... technically, the lead that started the years of diligent intel work are said to have come from a Gitmo detainee. They gave up the nickname of OBL's couriers, which eventually led to tracking down Osama.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
Another point I'd like to make is that I think too many people are diminishing the importance of Bin Laden's removal. No, it's not going to end the terrorist threat, but by most accounts it seems he was still very much operationally involved in Al Qaeda. His compound had couriers coming and going and there were said to have been multiple computers recovered from the compound.
Eh, aside from the invasive security theater our airport screenings have become (and that's a big aside), I think the Constitutional costs of been comparatively mild. Things like the DMCA have probably caused more long term damage to our freedoms. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by drone
Edit:Indeed. This was definitely the best course of action I could think of. His corpse is gone with no grave to become a terrorist tourist spot and no one can rationally say we were disrespectful to Islam overall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
PJ provided a link for that point, and it's a fair one. I guess the unknowable will be whether or not indefinite detentions and "enhanced interrogation" were truly useful to this purpose.
Anyway, well done Seal Team Six, the CIA analysts who cracked the case, and the President who decided to go in rather than nuke the site from orbit.
And nonetheless, people are coming out of the woodwork already to complain about how it was insulting/disrespectful. To them I say- he deserved much worse than he got.
Quote:
"What was done by the Americans is forbidden by Islam and might provoke some Muslims," said another Islamic scholar from Iraq, Abdul-Sattar al-Janabi, who preaches at Baghdad's famous Abu Hanifa mosque. "It is not acceptable and it is almost a crime to throw the body of a Muslim man into the sea. The body of bin Laden should have been handed over to his family to look for a country or land to bury him."
Good riddance. One less madman running around.
In a further response to PJ and Xiahou drawing a link between Guantanamo and the execution of OBL, I think there's a some conflation going on. Doing a bit of reading between jobs, I don't see any evidence that the pseudonym was extracted under torture. At least, nobody with knowledge is saying that (please ignore the bloggers for the moment; they know not what they type). As one writer puts it:
When I visited Guantanamo, interrogator after interrogator stressed that the best information comes from standard tactics, not from brute torture.
"[It's] bad interrogation. I mean you can get anyone to confess to anything if the torture's bad enough," former CIA officer Bob Baer told ABC News. [...]
Much credit should go to the interrogators in Cuba who got the info that brought Osama down.
But until I see evidence to the contrary, I don't believe they couldn't have done the same job just as effectively -- without the gross damage to America's reputation abroad -- in any other prison on U.S. soil, under U.S. laws.
Let's see...the extremists would already be raging that he was killed. So now they just have another reason to rage.....people always find something to complain about.
I'd like to see how many of those who say it was disrespectful would've accepted the responsibility to bury the body themselves....even his own family (I think) do not approve of him.
lol, I am hosting a Don't *$&#! With America party at my house tonight and I already got 32 people confirming that they are coming. I have some awesome entertainment planned! :beam:
@Vuk, I would suggest a theme song, but it would violate Org policy. It's from the film Team America: World Police, and it will make a rousing sing-along.
It appears that he was buried at sea and following the appropriate muslim traditions. I find this reasonable as the idea of doing outrage to corpses leaves me thinking about my celtic ancestors -- the ones we rightly label barbarians.
Bin Laden was, apparently, tracked to the location using good old-fashioned intelligence/detective work. Being unable to confirm that Bin Laden was 100% likely to be present, President Obama sent in boots who would not shoot innocent bystanders and the like. Good choice, and well-executed by the multi-part team that put the operation in play.
It remains to be seen how much of Osama's hideout location near the Pakistani capital and military academy was the result of Pakistani complicity and how much was simply the choice to go the "purloined letter" route to hide him. I am reasonably certain that the question will be asked.
This thread has gone from tasteless to disgusting.
So much short sightedness, so many moral compasses ill aligned.
We might as well hand out whiskey and six shooters.
And what is your opinion oh mighty shibumi. I find that this thread is surprisingly tasteful despite the fact that the man did nothing to warrant respect.
Do you know how many thousands died horribly because of that 'man'? Not to mention all the people who died in efforts to get him and people in his organization.
Your sympathy is touching, but he has done nothing to deserve it. I sure as heck will celebrate when a murderer of his magnitude dies.
And actually, you are right on the money about whiskey and six shooters...well, really close at least. I am actually hanging a bunch of Osama targets up that I bought after 911 and having been waiting on this morning for. After THAT fun, we break out the vodka. I am not a drinking man, but tonight I make the exception.
I don't see anything disgusting in the thread, but maybe that's because I am an Evil Imperialist American. Anything's possible.
Looks like UBL went out of this life with the same class he had throughout:
Brennan also identified bin Laden as the combatant who had used a woman as a human shield. She was the only woman who died in the operation, which also killed a courier for bin Laden, the courier's brother, and one of bin Laden's sons, Brennan said. Brennan later said it was his understanding that the woman was one of bin Laden's wives.
"She served as a shield -- this is my understanding -- when she fought back -- when there was an opportunity to get to bin Laden -- she was positioned in a way that she was used as a shield. My understanding was she was one of bin laden's wives," Brennan told reporters.
Just to show I'm not trying to urinate in the collective punchbowl, I did get one good laugh from the news today. It allowed some sportswriter to post a link to this old (2001) little gem from the Telegraph today.
I do not believe in evil.
OBM might have been ****** up from our perspective, but at the end of the day he probably was a man who did what he could in the situations he was put in.
Remember back in the days when he was a CIA sponsored freedom fighter? Oh how fast it goes from hero to zero.
Do not get me wrong, I do not think this man contributed with much good to society or the world at large. He has as much innocent blood on his hands as, say, the American general who reigned the first years of the Afghan war (count civilian deaths people).
Does it mean I cheer and pop open a bottle of champagne when he is dead? No - I rather pour me a glass of red, go out on the terrace, and think about the destiny of mankind at large.
I guess this reminds me of a rabid fox. Should they be put down? Yes indeed. Will I cheer at it - no. I will feel sad that the fox got the disease in the first place, and spend some thoughts on the disease.
Same goes here, what is the disease in humanity that made this mess.
But oh well, you all go out partying. The big questions do not matter. All that has changed the past 10 years (for the worse mainly) mean nothing, because an elderly man got assassinated.
Yey.
Maybe this line of reasoning will make a little more sense to you:
The reason for the joy is actually less obvious. It is, at its best, I think, not vengeance or relief - although they are within us all, at various levels of suppression. The joy comes because somewhere we feel for the first time in so long that this hideous, bungled, tortuous, torture-filled decade of war and mass murder might, after all, have some smidgen of emotional closure, some sliver of justice in its long arc, some core thread leading to something we can call victory.
I think especially of all those young Americans who, on September 12 2001, woke up and decided to serve their country in her hour of need. I think of all those who signed up for war because of 9/11. And let's face it. They did not sign up because they wanted to re-shape the Middle East, or bring democracy to Iraq, or to bribe Hamid Karzai.
They signed up to find, capture, or kill Osama bin Laden.
They signed up to attack everything he represents.
It gives bin Laden too much credit to say he made them soldiers. But they became soldiers because of his crime and what he had done to the country they loved.
Many of them were cheering last night. But many were not alive to do so. I think particularly of those men and women now. They died in battle not knowing that America would eventually, finally find this murderer, and bring him to justice. Imagine telling them now, as if they were still alive, "We got him! We got bin Laden!" Imagine the look on their faces. Imagine what you see in their eyes.
And then look at their faces as you also tell them that it was done by Navy SEALS, in a gun-battle, where bin Laden was given the option of surrender, and refused. And then we ensured that his funeral was a dignified one, in accordance with the protocols of Islam.
Which is to say to our heroes: You did not die in vain. And your comrades finished the job.
And who can not feel joy at that?
So Osama Bin Laden is dead... Amazing what the Americans can do when the Playstation Network is down.
This is always brought up by the usual suspects as some sort of 'ah hah!' moment. Well yes, he did go from hero to zero, but the transformation was his and his alone.
He made the conscious decision to transition from fighting the military forces of an unwelcome occupation to the intentional targetting of civilians. Had he stuck to military targets, that line of reasoning would hold more water (although the US military's presence in Saudi Arabia that bin Laden equated to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was in fact sought after and sanctioned by Saudi Arabia).
While there was CIA funding for the mujahideen in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union, Osama bin Laden personally never dealt with America.Quote:
Remember back in the days when he was a CIA sponsored freedom fighter? Oh how fast it goes from hero to zero.
I agree with the rest of your post.
Yeah yeah, he was bad. Jesus would throw the first stone I am sure.
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First of all (and more importantly) I try to sympathize with everyone. Give it a try, it open up new worlds.
Secondly (and way less important) I use this forum to help me with TWS2. I honestly had not even noticed a feature to make friends here. This may shock you, but I seek other paths in life to make friends than a forum dedicated for a primarily single player strategical game. [shock!]
Wise but now superfluous comment removed. Ajax
Hey, let's not get too personal here. Let's debate Shibumi's ideas, not his person.
Shibumi, surely your "sympathize with everyone" perspective might lead you to consider the feelings of OBL's many, many victims? Consider the immediate victims of his attacks, which number somewhere in the neighborhood of six thousand. Then consider that the most recent Afghan war would not have taken place if he had not attacked us on our soil. Consider the epic loss of life that stemmed from this man's actions. And as the blog I linked discussed, consider the idealistic men and women who signed up for the military in the wake of the 9/11 attacks, many of whom gave their lives to oppose OBL's insane vision of a global caliphate.
Given the toil, sweat, blood and tears that have flowed from OBL's actions, don't Americans have some small right to celebrate his demise?