Why is it okay for missionaries to lie?

I think that most 'religious' people know, deep down, that it is a fantasy maintained for reasons of social cohesion. It's also nice to think that people once loved can be seen again. However, if people truly believed that their eternal souls were in jeopardy and following a specific set of tenants would save them, they would actually live by those tenants - all day, every day. The phenomenon of the casually religious would not exist.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

I think that most 'religious' people know, deep down, that it is a fantasy maintained for reasons of social cohesion. It's also nice to think that people once loved can be seen again. However, if people truly believed that their eternal souls were in jeopardy and following a specific set of tenants would save them, they would actually live by those tenants - all day, every day. The phenomenon of the casually religious would not exist.

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This is exactly the crap I'm talking about.

Screw off PJ - not everybody has the same way of viewing the world.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Depends on your type of faith, honestly. Many christians take the view that man is a flawed creature, and that the bible itself is a flawed product of man, while the exploits and teachings of jesus himself (which makes up a relatively small portion of the bible anyway) suggest that if you're pure of heart and intention god will judge you accordingly. Its not so much about following the specifics as it is trying to 'do what jesus would do,' if you will.

That's not all christians, obviously, but many that you call 'casually' religious are in fact just skeptical of the establishment, but not the message.

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But that's just it. Even if we eliminate everything from Christianity except the teachings of Jesus, the vast, vast majority of Christians do not even attempt to emulate some of his more inconvenient messages, such as those regarding the accumulation of wealth for example. If Christianity was anything more than a convenient moral code in which to indoctrinate children and maintain social ties, there would be no rich Christians, and none who would try to be rich.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

But that's just it. Even if we eliminate everything from Christianity except the teachings of Jesus, the vast, vast majority of Christians do not even attempt to emulate some of his more inconvenient messages, such as those regarding the accumulation of wealth for example. If Christianity was anything more than a convenient moral code in which to indoctrinate children and maintain social ties, there would be no rich Christians, and none who would try to be rich.

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Jesus alos said everybody would fail to be a "good£ person, nevermind Christian, anyway.

We're all epic screwups, any other religion would try to change that - hell Communism basically fails because it tries to make people "behave".

You lack faith, that part of you that feels the sunshine and interprets that as God isn't as significant as the sceptical part of you. That's fine, but not everybody is like that.

I litterally spent years going "I can't hear you" even when I had a pretty good idea what I was hearing.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

I agree with you, but I don't think I made my point clear. Christianity is such a fractured mixture of different organizations, teachings, and establishments all competing with one another (and with other faiths) that the real message (Be good, be selfless, be humble, etc.) is often lost in the noise.

And even for those who do take it quite seriously, most understand that humans will err, and they will err often. The single largest message in the new testament is that Jesus offers redemption for the mistakes and imperfections of man, so that if you fail to live up to the standard you can repent and try again, so long as you are sincere.

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Sincerity is certainly the issue. I would suggest that a man who goes to church on Sunday and to work on Monday to enrich himself is not sincere in his Christianity. There is a large difference between erring in the heat of the moment and structuring one's life in a manner that goes against the teachings of your god. Anyone who has an accurate understanding of Jesus' teachings understands that god's forgiveness is not a get out of jail free card. In fact, Christians at large should reject capitalism at its core, but the vast majority do not. Most people are willing to embrace a certain convenient Christianity as it comes with some significant social insurance in many parts of the world, but their actions do not suggest true belief.

It aint just the lutherans who spread these lies, the Catholics do it too. And they get rather pissed when someone calls their bluff....

I'm sure Jesus is proud.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

This is exactly the crap I'm talking about.

Screw off PJ - not everybody has the same way of viewing the world.

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He's more or less right. You are a different christian than most, you know that.

Many people do not think about there faith at all

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

He's more or less right. You are a different christian than most, you know that.

Many people do not think about there faith at all

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PJ didn't start by criticising individual adherents, he led with a criticism of the basic idea and the belief system that has grown up around that idea.

Hypocracy is an acknowledged problem in Christianity as well as every other religions and all forms of philosophy.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

So, that brings the missionaries up from "lying cheats" to "ignorant idiots". Assuming, of course, that they have no clue as to what's going on and turn to god to explain what they are too dumb to do(as well as being too dumb to seek help).

Now, I do not have educational statistics on western missionaries, but my impression is that they range from educated to very educated. Not ignorant. And their backers, the ones who read their reports, certainly contain a fair amount of highly educated people, including medical staff. And yet, knowing the truth, they still choose to spread the obvious lies.

Sorry, I'm sticking with "lying cheats" over "ignorant idiots".

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You can explain your world however you want, freedom of belief applies to you as well, however dogmatic you want to be, it's okay. ~:pat:

Then again you may be a lying cheat sent by the devil, knowing very well that these missionaries fully believe what they say, yet portray them as evil fraudsters. Now that I think about it you couldn't possibly believe in that much human evil, after all you're a teacher and you should know a lot about humanity, so I'm going to stick with "agent of the devil" over "seriously concerned citizen". ~;)

Does "agent of the devil" come with some sort of uniform?

If so, I'm definitely sold!

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Does "agent of the devil" come with some sort of uniform?

If so, I'm definitely sold!

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Yup, naked except for a pair of goat-skin chaps.

We're not hiring new staff at the moment, sorry.

If you're really interested I could suggest a few other jobs that might improve your chances in the future. We have a lot of former investment bankers on our payroll. There also used to be a lot of yellow journalists and some Tory politicians, but most of them were let go (into the lake of fire, that is) when we had to slash spending.

I was under the impression it was impossible to be fired in Europe

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

I was under the impression it was impossible to be fired in Europe

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No, but you can be made redundant or given early retirement.